Do attacking and blocking creatures attack simultaneously ?

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I'm working on a card I'm designing

Cerulium Angle creature angle
Flying
the next creature that attacks, blocks
  or activates an ability is exiled.
[A creature may add an ability on the stack
and become the creature to be exiled.]
[creatures attack or block simultaneously]
Pick a creature among attackers or blockers.

   ~"Everyone is guilty of something"
4/3


 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
All creatures that attack do so simultaneously. All creatures that block do so simultaneously. There isn't any "first" attacker or blocker.
I'm working on a card I'm designing

Cerulium Angle creature angle
Flying
the next creature that attacks, blocks
  or activates an ability is exiled.
[A creature may add an ability on the stack
and become the creature to be exiled.]
[creatures attack or block simultaneously] ???
Active player picks the attack or block case] ???

   ~"Everyone is guilty of something"
4/3





Also, I think that "angle" may be a new creature type.
I think I might keep that type
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
Maybe change the wording to say "target attacking or blocking creature, or target creature that activated an ability this turn" or something to that effect.

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Catotheyounger wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher came in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old girl.
I'm trying to work my way around shroud

and attending to the stack. ~shoot anythong that moves
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
"This ability may target creatures with hexproof or shroud"

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Catotheyounger wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher came in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old girl.
"This ability may target creatures with hexproof or shroud"



Worst settence ever.


Also, you forgot Protection.




Just go "choose" instead of "target". "Choose an attacking or blocking creature, or a creature that activated an ability this turn..."

[<o>]
this ability can have its target diverted if another creature activates an ability in response to it.

~shoot anything that moves
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
choose will work
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
"This ability may target creatures with hexproof or shroud"

Doesn't work.

101.2 When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

"This ability may target creatures with hexproof or shroud"



Worst settence ever.


Also, you forgot Protection.




Just go "choose" instead of "target". "Choose an attacking or blocking creature, or a creature that activated an ability this turn..."



  
Sorry. Trying to improvise here 

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Catotheyounger wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher came in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old girl.
Use "can be target as though" like in Glaring Spotlight.
"can be targeted as though" is way too many words

> 101.2 When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence.

oh
no matter then it won't effect shroud

Whenever a creature attacks,
blocks, or activates an ability:
  You may : exile target creature.
If a creature activates an ability
or a spell targets another creature;
 the exile target is changed to
 that creature instead.
"~shoot anything that moves"
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
I do not understand your card's text.

try again

flying
:Whenever a creature attacks, blocks,
or activates an ability: exile target creature.
Shroud and hexproof creatures may be targeted
as through they did not have that ability for this.
Whenever a creature activates an ability or becomes
the target of a spell in response to the exile; exile
 the last creature to respond or be targeted instead.
    "~shoot anything that moves"

1123456789012345678901234567890234567890
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
I tried running that through the stack in my head and hurt myself. I'm afraid to say stupid things, but I'm sure there's a way to clean that up.

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Catotheyounger wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher came in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old girl.
The next time a creature would attack or block, exile that creature instead.

Gets around hexproof, protection, etc, and fits in with your original intent.

Abilities are a little trickier. You have to say something like:
The next time a player would activate an ability, if the source of that ability is a creature, exile that creature instead.
It's messy and can probably be left off, so long as it doesn't hurt the intent too much.
The next time a player would activate an ability, if the source of that ability is a creature, exile that creature instead.

Why not this? The next time a player activates an ability of a creature, exile that creature.

Adding "this turn" onto the ability will fix any memory issues associated with the ability. I'd recommend doing so, but I left it off since the original ability did not include it.

It can be worded concisely if we use a replacement effect to change "attacks" into "is exiled." The ability thing is still kind of messy, but it won't exile itself -- it doesn't start looking for an ability to be activated until the Angel's ability resolves. I'd keep it as a separate ability if it was absolutely needed to get the right effect, but I'd rather leave it off entirely.

@Above: That wording is much better
It does need to be slightly tweaked so that it fits the template for either a replacement effect or an activated ability. It occurs to me now that a replacement has the side effect of preventing the attack/block/ability entirely, which is a huge functional difference from the original. I'm going to see if I can word it as a triggered ability, hang on.

Edit: I dunno, it's really tricky! Anyone have any idea how to make sure the next attack/block/ability (and ONLY that) triggers the angel?
The next time a creature would attack or block, exile that creature instead.

Gets around hexproof, protection, etc, and fits in with your original intent.

Abilities are a little trickier. You have to say something like:
The next time a player would activate an ability, if the source of that ability is a creature, exile that creature instead.
It's messy and can probably be left off, so long as it doesn't hurt the intent too much.



creatures need to become self referential

 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
The next time a player would activate an ability, if the source of that ability is a creature, exile that creature instead.

Why not this? The next time a player activates an ability of a creature, exile that creature.




attacking and blocking are abilities?

 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
I think the mana cost might be too low at this point.

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Catotheyounger wrote:
Back when I was in high school, I used to write little quotes on the whiteboard of my chemistry class, little, funny things that I'd made up and attributed to an anonymous author. Just tiny things I found amusing. Some time near the end of the year, a substitute teacher came in, read it, and told us a quote she had heard from a 13 year old girl. I don't remember what it was, but the quote sounded deep and philosophical. Then I actually thought about it. I realized that the quote was actually meaningless, but simply couched in the language of philosophy and depth. And that's what your post is. It is meaningless bull**** that you said in such a way as to make it seem sophisticated. But just as a lab coat doesn't make you a scientist, language won't make you a philosopher. Only love of wisdom will. And until then, you will always remind me of a nameless 13 year old girl.
The next time a player activates an ability of a creature, exile that creature and that ability.

Can an ability be exiled? I know a spell can be exiled.
Whenever a creature attacks or blocks, or a player activates an ability of a creature, if it's the first time that has happened since this ability resolved, exile that creature.

Yuck.


If a creature would attack or block, it does so, but that creature is exiled instead of remaining on the battlefield.
If a player would activate an ability of a creature, he or she activates it, but that creature is exiled instead of remaining on the battlefield.

Bleh.

Anyone have an example of a replacement effect that replaces "do nothing?"

@Ichibann: Yes, an ability can be exiled.
The next time a player would activate an ability, if the source of that ability is a creature, exile that creature instead.

Why not this? The next time a player activates an ability of a creature, exile that creature.




attacking and blocking are abilities?


No. I never said that.
too bad

Adding "this turn" onto the ability will fix any memory issues associated with the ability. I'd recommend doing so, but I left it off since the original ability did not include it.

It can be worded concisely if we use a replacement effect to change "attacks" into "is exiled." The ability thing is still kind of messy, but it won't exile itself -- it doesn't start looking for an ability to be activated until the Angel's ability resolves. I'd keep it as a separate ability if it was absolutely needed to get the right effect, but I'd rather leave it off entirely.

@Above: That wording is much better
It does need to be slightly tweaked so that it fits the template for either a replacement effect or an activated ability. It occurs to me now that a replacement has the side effect of preventing the attack/block/ability entirely, which is a huge functional difference from the original. I'm going to see if I can word it as a triggered ability, hang on.

Edit: I dunno, it's really tricky! Anyone have any idea how to make sure the next attack/block/ability (and ONLY that) triggers the angel?



 wanted this ability to be only used as a respoinse

thanks for your help

I think the mana cost might be too low at this point.



I wasn't sure, I could make the angle an artifact as a complication.

 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
wanted this ability to be only used as a respoinse


If you want it to be used as a response to a creature activating an ability or being declared as an attacker or blocker maybe word it as:
': Exile the last creature, other than Cerulium Angel, to attack, block or have one of it's abilities activated.  If two or more creatures are tied for last to attack, block or have one of it's abilities activated, you choose one of them.'
Still not sure why this is in Rules Q&A... seems like a custom card creation question. :P

If you really want this card to do what you want it to do (but it would be REALLY annoying on MTGO), make it a triggered ability.

"Whenever another creature attacks or blocks or an activated ability of a creature is activated, if Cerulium Angel is untapped, you may tap Cerulium Angel. If you do, destroy that creature."

(You could also change "another creature" to "a creature an opponent controls") 

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

The question was about the timing of attacking and blocking.

Creatures attack and block simultaneously

wanted this ability to be only used as a response


If you want it to be used as a response to a creature activating an ability or being declared as an attacker or blocker maybe word it as:
': Exile the last creature, other than Cerulium Angel, to attack, block or have one of it's abilities activated.  If two or more creatures are tied for last to attack, block or have one of it's abilities activated, you choose one of them.'



thanks


Cerulium Angle creature angle
Flying
: Exile the last creature, besides this,
     to have attacked, blocked, or activated an ability.
     If multiple creatures last attacked, blocked
     or activated an ability; you choose one of them.
     Hexproof and shroud creatures may be chosen
       as though they did not have that ability for this.
          ~"shoot anything that moves"
3/3


 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
Another problem: Creatures can't activate abilities. Only players can.

"T: Choose a creature other than ~ that most recently attacked or blocked this turn or whose activated ability was most recently activated this turn. Exile that creature."

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

that's a lot of extra words to state
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
that's a lot of extra words to state

What you want can't be worded elegantly or consisely.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Maybe now it's clear why such an ability doesn't actually exist anywhere? It's bulky, awkward and confusing. There are enough ways to deal with shroud/hexproof creatures that an ability narrowly designed to be able to get rid of a specific one isn't really necessary.

For example, blocking a creature, forcing a block ("Lure" effects or just putting pressure on your opponent with your attacks), a sacrifice effect, a board wipe (damage or destroy) are all effective ways to handle hexproof/shroud. Glaring Spotlight is another way to deal with Hexproof, which is also bulky, awkward and confusing. ;)

So really, you could just make a creature that has "{This} can target creatures with shroud or hexproof as though they didn't have shroud or hexproof." and "T: Exile target attacking or blocking creature."

I'm not entirely sure what you want your ability to be able to do.

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

got ya

plural case

Cerulium Angel creature angel
Flying
Whenever a creature acts
  [attacks, blocks, or activates an ability]; 
  This may in response:
     Exile the creature that acted last besides this.
     If multiple creatures acted last; choose one.
     Hexproof and shroud creatures may be chosen
     as though they did not have those abilities for this.
          ~"shoot anything that moves"
3/3
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
got ya

plural case

Cerulium Angel creature angel
Flying
Whenever a creature acts
  [attacks, blocks, or activates an ability]; 
  This may in response:
     Exile the creature that acted last besides this.
     If multiple creatures acted last; choose one.
     Hexproof and shroud creatures may be chosen
     as though they did not have those abilities for this.
          ~"shoot anything that moves"
3/3

That template is a giant mess of wrongness and unreadability. For starters, you can't nest an activated ability inside of a triggered ability. only appears in the costs of activated abilities. You invented a new word arbitrarily. Choosing a creature means that he ability already gets around Hexproof and Shroud; you don't need extra text to make that happen. Saying "you can [do this] in response" is meaningless: that is already going to happen.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

...a creature that has "{This} can target creatures with shroud or hexproof as though they didn't have shroud or hexproof."

Creatures don't target things; spells and abilities target things.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

got ya

plural case

Cerulium Angel creature angel
Flying
Whenever a creature acts
  [attacks, blocks, or activates an ability]; 
  This may in response:
     Exile the creature that acted last besides this.
     If multiple creatures acted last; choose one.
     Hexproof and shroud creatures may be chosen
     as though they did not have those abilities for this.
          ~"shoot anything that moves"
3/3

That template is a giant mess of wrongness and unreadability. For starters, you can't nest an activated ability inside of a triggered ability. only appears in the costs of activated abilities. You invented a new word arbitrarily. Choosing a creature means that he ability already gets around Hexproof and Shroud; you don't need extra text to make that happen. Saying "you can [do this] in response" is meaningless: that is already going to happen.

>This may tap in response
I guess I was trying to enforce summonning sickness

I think "acts" is the word I'm looking for

Actived abilities are already nested whether we word it eplicitely or not
Soul Net
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
got ya

plural case

Cerulium Angel creature angel
Flying
Whenever a creature acts
  [attacks, blocks, or activates an ability]; 
  This may in response:
     Exile the creature that acted last besides this.
     If multiple creatures acted last; choose one.
     Hexproof and shroud creatures may be chosen
     as though they did not have those abilities for this.
          ~"shoot anything that moves"
3/3

That template is a giant mess of wrongness and unreadability. For starters, you can't nest an activated ability inside of a triggered ability. only appears in the costs of activated abilities. You invented a new word arbitrarily. Choosing a creature means that he ability already gets around Hexproof and Shroud; you don't need extra text to make that happen. Saying "you can [do this] in response" is meaningless: that is already going to happen.

>This may tap in response
I guess I was trying to enforce summonning sickness

I think "acts" is the word I'm looking for

Actived abilities are already nested whether we word it eplicitely or not
Soul Net




There is no activated ability nested in Soul Net's triggered ability. Notice the lack of a colon. 
Soul Net doesn't have any activated abilities, and there isn't anything nested. It's just a triggered ability that, upon resolution, allows you to pay to get an effect.

As for your card, it's an abomination. If you want to design Magic cards, you have to understand the "language" of the game. I don't mean templating (that helps, but it's not necessary). I mean that there are certain ways that concepts get expressed in the game, and certain concepts that just don't work. In early Magic, this language wasn't really developed yet, so a lot of cards things that don't really work now, so they got really hideous Oracle text in an attempt to fit the square peg into the round hole. Imprison is a particularly relevant example of this.

There's no excuse for making such cards now, when you have twenty years of precedent to look at that will help you learn the language. If you're making a  Magic card, make it work like a Magic card. The way to do an effect like that is either this:
: Exile target attacking or blocking creature.
Or this:
: Exile target tapped creature.
the rules should be clear and understandable by any player sans conflict
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock