Spirit Infusion vs. Ironbreaker Claws

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I was helping someone build a Shaman and reading the guides on here that all highly recommended Ironbreaker Claws. In actual play, we were unimpressed. Afterwards, I ran some numbers and this is what I came up with:


Spirit Infusion: 19.35 average damage
Ironbreaker Claws: 16.995 average damage


and Ironbreaker Claws is an Encounter power...


Now a little more information: the Shaman and I are both level 1, she has only the base +4 to hit and does 1d10 + 4. I'm playing a melee Warlock/Assassin hybrid with +7 to hit and, assuming a cursed target, do 2d8 + 2d6 + 5 damage.


I spent a lot of time on this (only because I love D&D and Math ) and it looks like these numbers start looking a lot better in favor of Ironbreaker Claws depending on the hit%, crit%, damage, and crit damage of the Shaman but those are actually small potatoes next to the Int of the Shaman. When Int gets high enough (along with the Shaman's to hit), it starts to make up for the loss of striker accuracy because of the 2 separate attack rolls. 


This stuff might not be a surprise to some of you but I thought it was worth mentioning that Ironbreaker Claws isn't always what it's cracked up to be and probably won't be until around Paragon.              
uhm, Int will be around 4 off the bat, which is +2 to hit. And theres the aspect of two damage instances.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Which still works out to less than one damage instance of Spirit Infusion. Think about it, most of the damage is coming from the Striker, not the Shaman. And the Striker can only do its damage if the Shaman hits. Spirit Infusion increases to hit by 10%. Ironbreaker Claws raises it by 20% (+4 Int as you said), but the Shaman needs to hit first. 


75% to hit is much better than 60% to hit times 85% to hit.  
Now a little more information: the Shaman and I are both level 1, she has only the base +4 to hit and does 1d10 + 4. I'm playing a melee Warlock/Assassin hybrid with +7 to hit and, assuming a cursed target, do 2d8 + 2d6 + 5 damage.

This stuff might not be a surprise to some of you but I thought it was worth mentioning that Ironbreaker Claws isn't always what it's cracked up to be and probably won't be until around Paragon.              



i.e. you're first level. You're attacking AC, she's attacking Reflex(in effect +2 to hit that you don't get), neither of you got expertise feats.

And the Shaman handbook doesn't assume that someone has (for 1st level), effectively an encounter strength MBA because Mearls couldn't get hybrids correct... 
Without upping the Shaman's to hit, you need a +8 Int mod to make the to hits of the 2 powers a wash. But because of the Shaman's ability to get feats and items to raise their to hit relative to monsters of their level and because they also add damage of their own to the mix, Ironbreaker Claws would become better than Spirit Infusion before then. Like I said, I suspect this will usually happen beginning to mid Paragon.
BTW my calculations do take into effect that she's targetting Reflex. I also understand that my at-will attacks do encounter level damage. I think this question is worth raising though because I have a feeling Ironbreaker Claws will often fall short (Striker damage relative to Shaman damage that is).
BTW my calculations do take into effect that she's targetting Reflex. I also understand that my at-will attacks do encounter level damage. I think this question is worth raising though because I have a feeling Ironbreaker Claws will often fall short (Striker damage relative to Shaman damage that is).



The handbook doesn't assume that you'll have a character in the party essentially built to do the largest possible amount of damage with an MBA at 1st level. 2d8+2d6+5 is incredibly high for a 1st level MBA. More normal might be 2d6+4+3 or 1d4+3+2d8. i.e. about 14 points of damage instead of 21. Or even worse than that.

Try re-running the numbers then. One of the things about CharOps is there's often the built-in assumption that you can't assume that you'll have the perfect complementary PC with your PC. If that's true, lots of things change values.
I just ran the numbers for a Warlock with the same to hit: +7 vs. AC but only does base, unoptimized damage: 1d8 + 1d6 + 4. Shaman stats were the same: +4 vs. Ref, 1d10 + 4.


Ironbreaker Claws:  12.225

Spirit Infusion:  12.3


The defense... rests?  
I just ran the numbers for a Warlock with the same to hit: +7 vs. AC but only does base, unoptimized damage: 1d8 + 1d6 + 4. Shaman stats were the same: +4 vs. Ref, 1d10 + 4.


Ironbreaker Claws:  12.225

Spirit Infusion:  12.3


The defense... rests?  

Level 1 has a lot of odd skewing in general. Careful Attack is actually better than Twin Stike at 1st level, no one ever says you should take it over Twin Strike.

I don't disagree. What will make Ironbreaker Claws take over though is dependent on the Shaman, as I THINK I've proven, as any amount of damage over about 12 favors Spirit Infusion. So after that, it's all about boosting accuracy to the point that it can compensate for the 2 attack rolls which occurs at about +8 INT if the Shaman doesn't/can't boost its own accuracy relative to that of the monsters. To give you an example: The Striker won't hit with its attack as much as with the Spirit Infusion attack until one player has 95% accuracy and the other player has 80%, but as I said earlier, the Shaman contributes damage too so Ironbreaker Claws WILL outdamage Spirit Infusion before then (but possibly not a lot before...)
I just ran the numbers for a Warlock with the same to hit: +7 vs. AC but only does base, unoptimized damage: 1d8 + 1d6 + 4. Shaman stats were the same: +4 vs. Ref, 1d10 + 4.


Ironbreaker Claws:  12.225

Spirit Infusion:  12.3


The defense... rests?  



Now start adding damage to both sides. Say +6 or so in Heroic by mid-tier. Give the Shaman CA always, Expertise, Superior Implement, so the Shaman is hitting on a 6, not a 9. You're a Shaman, so Deva, Elf, and Human all tend to be awesome at it and therefore you have ways of trying again if you do happen to miss.

But more importantly, after you use Spirit Infusion, your spirit goes away. You have benefits from it staying around when it isn't your turn. She needs to move her Spirit next to you to make you able to MBA someone else. This means that she needs to then summon it back afterwards or lose her immediate action possibilities.

Note what this means: No actions left. None for healing, utilities, dealing with being dazed, etc...

Yes, Spirit Infusion is one of the top-tier at-wills out there. But it has limitations due to it being a melee spirit power that can essentially cost three actions to have no opportunity cost outside your turn.
Oh and an important point, that is assuming that the accuracy boosts the Striker gets are purely from the INT bonus to attack. Once they get combat advantage or modify their accuracy in other ways, Spirit Infusion should still deal more damage again (that Shaman's attack has to really do a LOT of damage to make up for that...)
Oh and an important point, that is assuming that the accuracy boosts the Striker gets are purely from the INT bonus to attack. Once they get combat advantage or modify their accuracy in other ways, Spirit Infusion should still deal more damage again (that Shaman's attack has to really do a LOT of damage to make up for that...)



And once the Shaman modifies their accuracy, they catch up as well. And as someone taking Ironbreaker Claws, they care to up their accuracy(even though your fellow player did not, because she only has a +4)
The Shaman can't catch up enough just from accuracy, as I already explained. They're not going to do it at level 1 for sure. Point of fact is that Ironbreaker Claws is never going to cut it as a level 1 pick if you have Spirit Infusion as an option and I don't think the downside of having to use a minor action to resummon the spirit is going to sway things the other way.
If you have Ironbreaker Claws as a suggestion in a guide, btw, people may read it, take it for their level 1 pick, never even realizing there's no point. I did the math to compare the two. You're welcome.
The Shaman can't catch up enough just from accuracy, as I already explained. They're not going to do it at level 1 for sure. Point of fact is that Ironbreaker Claws is never going to cut it as a level 1 pick if you have Spirit Infusion as an option and I don't think the downside of having to use a minor action to resummon the spirit is going to sway things the other way.



Heck, your math is wrong, even at 1st, actually even with your Warlock|Assassin...particularly if you have a Spirit Infusion character who might expect not to reroll all that much.

Human Shaman, 16 Int, 18 Wis, has Heroic Effort and Expertise. She moves up to flank with you and moves her spirit adjacent to the monster and you. Now she has a +7 to hit and a +4, i.e. +11 vs. Reflex, so hits on a 2 or 95% of the time. Your Warlock gets +5(+2 from CA, +3 from Int), so hits 95% of the time.

.95^2 =.9025.

Your Warlock only gets +4 from Spirit Infusion/CA, so you only hit 90% of the time with it.

Elf & Deva do similar things. But that's what you get when you make weird math problems that assume the Shaman is going to be deliberately sub-optimal compared to the MBA expert.
Also, count the opportunity cost of the spirit companion disappearing. Not a big deal for animist shamans, but still a cost nonetheless.
If you have Ironbreaker Claws as a suggestion in a guide, btw, people may read it, take it for their level 1 pick, never even realizing there's no point. I did the math to compare the two. You're welcome.



I'd also say check the ego at the door.

Mostly because snide comments like this turn something that could be a legitimate point into chest-bumping nonsense.

I don't play a shaman, or really care much about the discussion, but if you could pop your inflated sense of worth to come down and talk to the rest of us we may actually be able to put some value into this conversation. 
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Theres also the whole bit of you having Iron Breaker Claws until level 13. Oh also you're wrong and refuse to admit so. But your toolishness is an aside. You're also wrong.
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I don't play a shaman, or really care much about the discussion, but if you could pop your inflated sense of worth to come down and talk to the rest of us we may actually be able to put some value into this conversation. 


There is no value to this conversation.

@OP: Something being of a certain quality at level 1 is as meaningless as it would be at level 30.

The game, and thus our advice, is based on characters being of various levels, having stuff, and not making bad choices. It is NOT particularly useful for the guide to say "But if you are level 1, don't have a Magic Weapon, Expertise, or ever have CA, and you have an ally with the most optimized MBA possible at level 1, don't bother taking Ironbreaker Claws because it's going to be worse for you than Spirit Infusion." No, we give advice that is useful to different players, at different levels, with different parties, why? Because we're awesome like that.

You're welcome.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
So you've "proven" a striker does more damage than a leader. At least in this very particular situation.

Thanks?
The "You're welcome." wasn't meant to be a show of arrogance. I'm just baffled by this board's hostility towards my findings and all the comments like "Wow I've proved a Striker does more damage than a Leader" are just ignorant - which is about par for the course on Internet forums. However, I've seen excellent math and conversations in these forums so I guess I was the ignorant one because I thought my post might be greeted with "Wow, I never realized/thought of that. Thanks for sharing." or something like that.


Instead, let's look at the issues with my post:


1) I was told the 2 hits would make up for the 1. The math proves that to be false almost all the time.


2) Next I was told I didn't calculate for Reflex. Keep in mind that I didn't say one way or the other and this person did NOT take the time to do their own math (why bother doing THAT when it's so much quicker to post something to cut someone else down?). If they did take the time, they would've seen BEFORE posting that I did calculate for Reflex. But I replied in the next post I did.


3) Then I was told "Well look at your Striker damage, that must be throwing everything off." So I recalculated thinking "Hey, maybe they're right." Nope. Even at baseline Striker damage. Spirit Infusion out performs Ironbreaker Claws.


4) Then I'm told "Well if the Shaman has CA, has 95% to hit, blah blah blah, then Ironbreaker Claws outperforms." Which is a) what I was accused of doing by using a fully optimal situation regarding my Warlock's MBA and b) what I was already saying about the 2 powers i.e. the Shaman's accuracy has to be that absurd and then Ironbreaker Claws can outperform Spirit Infusion.


5) I was told that there is odd skewing at level 1 and I proved that this is not just from odd skewing. And I'm aware that different powers are better at different levels. I said that myself earlier in this thread. Ironbreaker Claws will usually be worse than the Shaman at-will though. I think that IS significant.


6) I was told my math is wrong but so far I'm the only one who's demonstrated any real mathematical proof.


7) Then the "Wow, you've proven Strikers do more damage than Leaders" which is just a snarky comment and not what my post proves or attempts to prove at all.


Now if you all think Ironbreaker Claws is so great, go ahead and use it, nobody's stopping you. I'm just frankly surprised at the opposition to someone suggesting (using something objective like math) that it MIGHT not always be the way to go. What does that say about all of you? I'd have to go back and check but I have a sneaking suspicion that one of you must've written one of those Shaman guides, otherwise I fail to see why it would be such a sensitive issue to any of you. My intent was not to cast any guide in a negative light. I was just surprised by what I found and excited and wanted to share. Guides don't have to address every possible scenario but it'd be nice to have a line saying something like "Spirit Infusion outperforms Ironbreaker Claws at some levels."


As for me personally, I wouldn't take as an encounter power something that does a couple of points more damage than my at-will over something more versatile although I have yet to find a real case where Ironbreaker Claws does beat out Spirit Infusion. 


Now I've said all I have to say. I'm done with this thread. For those of you that still want to keep arguing against my math without doing math of your own, ask yourself really who has the ego problem: me, who checked my assumptions at the door and did the math, or you, who refuse to be open-minded or check the math yourself because you already know the answer?                             
GO wrote the shaman guide and I haven't seen him post for several months. 
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Its really funny when someone says "I did the math and you didn't" to people who have done the math, and done it right.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Personally I am glad.  If he/she/it is going to throw a hissy fit that quickly and easily they were not going to be here long anyways...

And yes, 90% of why your post got negative reactions is because you arrogantly assumed everything you were doing is novel and wanted a pat on the back for it. 
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Personally I am glad.  If he/she/it is going to throw a hissy fit that quickly and easily they were not going to be here long anyways...

And yes, 90% of why your post got negative reactions is because you arrogantly assumed everything you were doing is novel and wanted a pat on the back for it. 



You know what, you deserve a pat on the back too. Because you used the number 90%, which means you used math.

In fact, cookies for everyone who use a number in their post! On the house! 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
4) Then I'm told "Well if the Shaman has CA, has 95% to hit, blah blah blah, then Ironbreaker Claws outperforms." Which is a) what I was accused of doing by using a fully optimal situation regarding my Warlock's MBA and b) what I was already saying about the 2 powers i.e. the Shaman's accuracy has to be that absurd and then Ironbreaker Claws can outperform Spirit Infusion.



Right...

All I'm doing for the 95% is the following:
Picking an optimal race for Shaman(Human, but Deva and Elf work roughly in the same way) and intending to use its racial power on a low roll.
Using a 16/16 Int/Wis stat array
Taking an Expertise feat
Being intelligent in combat and giving both my ally and myself CA rather than neither of you having it(and thereby increasing your average damage per swing by 2.1 for the additional 2/20 hits)

Any of that seem absurd to you?
4) Then I'm told "Well if the Shaman has CA, has 95% to hit, blah blah blah, then Ironbreaker Claws outperforms." Which is a) what I was accused of doing by using a fully optimal situation regarding my Warlock's MBA and b) what I was already saying about the 2 powers i.e. the Shaman's accuracy has to be that absurd and then Ironbreaker Claws can outperform Spirit Infusion.



Right...

All I'm doing for the 95% is the following:
Picking an optimal race for Shaman(Human, but Deva and Elf work roughly in the same way) and intending to use its racial power on a low roll.
Using a 16/16 Int/Wis stat array
Taking an Expertise feat
Being intelligent in combat and giving both my ally and myself CA rather than neither of you having it(and thereby increasing your average damage per swing by 2.1 for the additional 2/20 hits)

Any of that seem absurd to you?


Interesting question: would CA make the difference here?  Because the one issue with Spirit Infusion is that it disappears the spirit, meaning that Tome Expertise lo longer causes the target to grant CA.  Given the amount of extra damage CA can cause, this has often been an issue with me making this very decision.

It may well also be worth noting that there are other considerations to when to use the power - I only use it (on my Flame of Hope build) in an AP round so I'm more or less guaranteed to hit with it, which renders the issues of accuracy somewhat moot, or against a target granting some sort of bonus damage anyway (stalker boon, Deadly Lure/Sever the Source etc etc) which skew the calculations. 

But yeah, it's probably borderline.  But I find it more fun that SI, mostly due to not killing the spirit.

There may be better powers, though.
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GO wrote the shaman guide and I haven't seen him post for several months. 



Hey, I last posted a month ago!  I just haven't had anything worth adding the last few weeks.

The OP is comparing the one skyblue at will power with the one skyblue level 1 encounter power. I break down my shaman guide with encounter powers that are good choices for specific builds and ones that all shamans should consider.

The question for rating ironbreaker claws is "is there a better encounter power for most shamans to take for level 1?" Remember that 3 out of 5 shaman builds don't make int their secondary stat.  Further take into consideration that for non anamist builds all eagle shamans and some con and stalker shamans have claws of the eagle instead, especially in heroic when dismissing the spirit is a bigger deal than in paragon where every opped shaman can resummon it as a free action all the time.

All the level 1 encounter powers are single attacks except twin panthers and ironbreaker claws and those are also the best of the offensive powers that level with scorching sands being ok for animists or in fire themed parties with multiattackers who can exploit the vulnerability it grants.

A few others have decent effects for con shamans: bramble ally, thunderbears warding, and certain threat are worth looking at, but none of those three are offensive and they are only worth looking at if you want control or defensive options instead of offense.

So for most shamans the best level 1 encounter power is most often ironbreaker claws.  And the best at will is spirit infusion, especially in paragon and epic.  So both get skyblue ratings.
Interesting question: would CA make the difference here?  Because the one issue with Spirit Infusion is that it disappears the spirit, meaning that Tome Expertise lo longer causes the target to grant CA.  Given the amount of extra damage CA can cause, this has often been an issue with me making this very decision.



CA makes a big difference, racial power or not. Here's the basic problem:
The Warlock|Assassin hits on an 8 normally(15 AC(level+14), 65% to-hit chance) and does 21 damage on a hit, 33 damage on a crit.
The Shaman should hit on an 8 normally assuming Expertise feat and 18 Wisdom(+5 vs 13 Reflex) and does 9.5 damage on a hit, 14 damage on a crit.
Spirit Infusion changes that to 75% to-hit, 25/37.
Ironbreaker changes that to 85% to hit, 21/33.

So we end up with the following numbers assuming no CA:
Spirit Infusion = .70*25+.05*37 = 19.35
Ironbreaker = .60*9.5+.05*14+.65*(.8*21+.05*33) = 18.39

With CA:
Spirit Infusion = .80*25+.05*37 = 21.85
Ironbreaker = .70*9.5+.05*14+.75*(.9*21+.05*33) = 22.76

Assume you have both CA and Human's +4 to hit for a roll below an 6(but lose a point of Int on the MBA from Ironbreaker because only 16 Int, but keep the 18 Int for Spirit Infusion)
Spirit Infusion = .80*25+.05*37 = 21.85
Ironbreaker = .90*9.5+.05*14+.75*(.85*21+.05*33) = 23.88

And of course, once you get to add damage bonuses onto both sides, Ironbreaker does a lot better.
I think my favorite part is that this didn't qualify as math.

Human Shaman, 16 Int, 18 Wis, has Heroic Effort and Expertise. She moves up to flank with you and moves her spirit adjacent to the monster and you. Now she has a +7 to hit and a +4, i.e. +11 vs. Reflex, so hits on a 2 or 95% of the time. Your Warlock gets +5(+2 from CA, +3 from Int), so hits 95% of the time.

.95^2 =.9025.

Your Warlock only gets +4 from Spirit Infusion/CA, so you only hit 90% of the time with it.

Elf & Deva do similar things. But that's what you get when you make weird math problems that assume the Shaman is going to be deliberately sub-optimal compared to the MBA expert.



"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Only the op can do math. The rest of us can't. Get it straight Zath, jeez.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
(Pulls string)

"Math class is tough!" 
I hate to defend the OP's thereom here, but I think it is conceptually valid, he's just going about his proof in the wrong manner. Let's use some reductionist math here - we'll largely ignore the effects of crits because I can't be bothered to factor the extra 5% and the numbers come out same-ish anyway. The "damage packets" I'll use are analogous to MwaO's figures:

10 Damage per hit for the Shaman (65% to hit) 
22 Damage per hit for an optimized striker (65% to hit)
--A damage packet of 22 is pretty much the edge of striker optimization at level 1. Warlock|Exe can do this, as can a Brutal Scoundrel Rogue with a rapier.

The damage for each power at level 1 assuming CA on all attacks is:

SI: (.85)(22+4) = 22
IBC: (.75)(10)+(.75)(.95)(22) = 23

Slightly in favor IBC, but not enough to justify taking it as an encounter power at level 1, especially since it has a less favorable outcome distribution than SI (25% to do no damage, rather than 15%). The numbers are slightly off, but this should have been independently validated via everyone else's maths as well - the conceptual point is that a +/- deviation of 2 damage between an encounter power and an at-will makes that encounter power less desirable than, say keeping another power in your selection that fulfills a completely different functional niche.

The question comes down to how far down the line does the static damage scaling need to be before IBC overtakes SI by a meaningful amount of damage (I define as a differential of 5 points), and whether a meaningful differential can be achieved before level 13 (at which point the Lv1 encounter is retired). If unable to do so, that then leads to a conclusion that IBC is not a meaningful encounter power throughout the course of [most of] its relevant lifetime in play.

And values can generally be summarized as:
For every +1 damage the shaman gains, IBC pulls ahead by +.75
For every +1 damage the striker gains, IBC loses its edge by -.14

At which point, the damage differential becomes meaningful enough to satisfy our conditions when you gain an additional static mod of +7 damage from both characters (ignoring the fact that the striker has a higher tendency, motivitation, and ease to increase damage static mods over the Shaman). What does this mean? Well, it depends on your tolerance threshold as well as how quickly you think you'll be able to stack statics. If you think a 5 damage differential is meaningful and have a high-op group who can easily stack damage mods, IBC should pull ahead meaningfully by late heroic. If think even +7-8 extra damage is boring or just didn't bother to optimize your own personal damage, IBC will never be relevant through the course of its usage lifetime (up to level 13).

the conceptual point is that a +/- deviation of 2 damage between an encounter power and an at-will makes that encounter power less desirable than, say keeping another power in your selection that fulfills a completely different functional niche.



Which it does. It is extremely difficult to use Spirit Infusion twice in the same round on an AP round. Move next to MBA ally already next to standard is a move, standard for Spirit Infusion, minor to call Spirit back, standard to Spirit Infusion, and no more actions to summon it back. Or to use it on a round where the Shaman needs to heal and the SC is not next to the ally. Or otherwise use an utility that requires a minor action.

You want your SC around outside your turn and Spirit Infusion makes this difficult.

And that's then assuming again that we're using a relatively unoptimal race instead of one of the three optimal races for hitting.
Sigh. I feel like it is probably a failure on my part to actually post again in this thread but here goes:


I don't think that I started off with any sort of arrogant tone but I don't post in these forums a lot and the tone of the people who responded to me felt pretty hostile. That sort of thing can put anyone in the defensive. Being as I was referred to as he/she/it or as he in another post, I want to clarify that I'm actually female and maybe I get angry/defensive/sensitive more easily because I'm used to guy gamers being the ones who're arrogant, putting me down, or acting like I can't know anything, especially about math. My intention was not to imply that people here didn't know about math. In fact, I posted here for just the opposite reason - I expected people to appreciate my math. I wasn't looking for a "pat on the back" but I WAS hoping for a community that would conduct itself with a measure of politeness and open-mindedness, whether my thoughts were met with disagreement or not.


That being said, if we're going to have a discussion about the 2 powers, let's try to do so in a civilized manner and not make ad hominem attacks. I doubt anyone is going to know much about me from a few forum posts but let's suppose that I'm the most arrogant person you ever met, that still doesn't make me wrong. But you know what, it's fine if I am wrong. I'm human and humans make mistakes. However, nothing that has been said here has convinced me that this is one of those times.


It's true that I didn't account for Combat Advantage, but I do explicitly say that the Shaman needs a lot more accuracy and that if they have it, Ironbreaker Claws can outperform Spirit Infusion. Maybe what I don't understand here is why we're allowed to assume that the Shaman is going to easily get Combat Advantage? Generally, they seem to be played as a ranged class and as far as I know, the spirit doesn't count as an ally. So are you crediting them with some kind of feat or tactic that's standard but I just don't know about it? I want to state for the record that I still don't think this make IBC a significant Encounter power even still. So far, the difference demonstrated is very slight. I personally prefer something more versatile.


Also, the player I played with was a Hamadryad. Now this is an Int/Wis race but probably not the most optimal. This was not to deliberately make the Shaman worse. We're playing in Dark Sun (no Devas) and it was the other player's preference (didn't want to play a Human or Elf). The main thing the other races have is their encounter reroll ability which I don't think should factor into it because I don't want to have to use another encounter power to make my 1st encounter power work better than my at-will.


Anyway, when someone proves that IBC can do a few points more damage than Spirit Infusion, that's still a far cry from justifying it as one of the best 1st level Shaman encounter powers.


Another thing that's important to note is that, while you do use more minor actions if you use Spirit Infusion, the Shaman doesn't have to be as mobile as some other classes (they're at range, they resummon their spirit wherever they want, their spirit is making attack, etc.) so it looks like there're plenty of times they can afford to give up a move for a minor.


Lastly, I want to say that I put a lot of work into politely explaining my position here and I ask that the same courtesy is extended to me. I was presenting information for consideration, not trying to insult the people who like IBC.   
You presented bad info, and we're actually rude. Don't punch the door on the way out though
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I may stick around now just to make your life miserable. You calling it bad info doesn't make it true. The only thing I said that might've been construed as "rude" was "You're welcome." But then you know, people in polite society do thank people for their efforts even when they might not agree with them. On that note, if you continue to be rude and harass me on these forums, I will report you. Thanks.
What level 1 encounter power is better than ironbreaker claws for a shaman to take assuming they haven't dumped int?

What level 1 power is better if they have dumped int?
He'll be back. They always want the last word
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!