Trigger Question

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Just have a question about a trigger that took place in a tournament.

Player A attacks player B wih an exalted creature 2/2. Play A does not declare how much the damage is for. Player B doesn't declare a blocker and when damage is assigned player A states 6 damage. Player B says you didn't declare exalted so I didnt block.

So the question is does the exalted trigger have to be declared or can the exalted trigger be declared anytime?

Thanks!
exalted is assumed to have resolved
proud member of the 2011 community team
Thanks for the reply.

Based on the trigger... if Player A says it does X damage (which didn't include the exalted) he can't surprise Player B. Or Player B ask how much is that damage going to be before I assign blockers?

"But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you."

Can Player A still use exalted? Does this allow Player B to go back and assign blockers?
exalted is assumed to have resolved

are you sure about this?

Isn't the trigger changing the visible game state (increasing the power/toughness of the 2/2)

and this applies?
A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved. Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack.

He moved to the combat damage step without announcing his exalted triggers.

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it might have changed in the update, you're right
so my answer seems to be outdated

the attacker must acknowledge the exalted triggers in some way
proud member of the 2011 community team
But exalted isn't optional.  There's no way that the damage is only-2-because-he-didn't-mention-it.  If the creature attacks alone, Exalted triggers, and if insufficient attention was paid that this wasn't understood by both sides, the resolution must be 'roll back and redeclare blockers now that we are both on the same page as to what the P/T of the attacker is", not "ha, you never said Exalted triggered so it doesn't!"


...right?  The rules really haven't devolved to the point of mandatory things not happening because somebody didn't announce or somebody didn't notice ... right?
it was the case that Exalted simply was assumed to have resolved, even if noone said anything

but with the recent change to triggers (even at lower REL) it has to be acknowledged so it can resolve
if the attacker doesn't and it is discovered later on (say in the declare blocker step) it is up to the opponent if he wants the triggers to be put on the stack

if it is discovered in the combat damage step it might be too late

at no point is the opponent required to point out the trigger

you can read about the changes here: www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.a...
proud member of the 2011 community team
Does this mean that if I'm playing against a Simic opponent who forgets to announce or otherwise act on his evolve triggers, the counters cannot be placed retroactively--say, during my combat phase, when he suddenly realizes his dudes aren't big enough?
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
The Simic can't decide to do this. His opponent can force him to do that.
exalted is assumed to have resolved

Not since October, at least not at higher-than reg REL.

I think Enigma may be right actually (after reading the article he linked)

Matt Tabak considers exalted to be a trigger that has a non-visible change to the game state.

As such this applies
A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways: The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state.

So if he said "it deals 6" that seems to fall within the realms of acceptable.
A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways.

The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state. Many triggered abilities, like exalted and the first ability of Jace, Architect of Thought, fall under this case. Say you attack alone with a creature with exalted. No choices are required when the ability triggers and is put onto the stack, so you don't have to say anything yet. No actions are required when the ability resolves, so you don't have to say anything then, either. (Compare this to an ability that instructs you to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature. The rules require you to actually do that at this point.) But, at some point, damage will be assigned and the triggered ability will have an effect on the visible game state, which includes life totals. This is the point when you need to say something. The bar isn't extraordinarily high here. If the creature is a 2/1 before the bonus, saying "take 3" is great, as is "plus 1 for exalted," and many other variations.


But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you.


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basically you can't lie about the triggers, but you don't have to point them out either

seems reasonable enough, if the defending player is unsure he can just ask what the power of the attacker is, and the player has to respond honestly at least at FNM level
proud member of the 2011 community team
Note that this only applies at tournaments that are higher than Regular REL (so it won't apply to FNM or to a prerelease).

At Regular REL, you should call a judge and let him/her handle it. From what I've seen in the past, the player who is trying to manipulate the rules to his advantage is the one who gets penalized.

If you're playing casually, fix it any way you find appropriate. Here's how I'd do it:
Exalted: The creature is a 6/6 and the defending player can change his blocks if he wants.
Evolve: Put the counter on the creature, but don't modify life totals or combat results unless everyone agrees on what they would have been. (Yes, this is a partial fix that would not be okay at a tournament.)
Where's the indication that non-counter bonuses are considered visible changes in the game state?

I was uncertain what constituted a visible change to game state and after reading the article, I see that exalted is not a visible change so it doesn't have to be acknowledged until it would actually have a visible effect.

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At Regular REL, you should call a judge and let him/her handle it. From what I've seen in the past, the player who is trying to manipulate the rules to his advantage is the one who gets penalized.



They way I read this, neither is trying to manipulate rules to his advantage.  A either assumed B was paying enough attention to notice that his creature was benefitting from exalted, or A entirely forgot about his exalted until later in the attack phase.  In neither case was there any intentional rules manipulation, just a fault in attentiveness.
Where's the indication that non-counter bonuses are considered visible changes in the game state?

I was uncertain what constituted a visible change to game state and after reading the article, I see that exalted is not a visible change so it doesn't have to be acknowledged until it would actually have a visible effect.


Sorry; I deleted my post as soon as I saw your second reply. Guess I wasn't fast enough.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

True. I wasn't trying to imply that one of the players was attempting to manipulate the rules in this case. It was more intended to be a caution to avoid approaching the judge with the attitude that your opponent is definitely wrong because of tournament rule such and such. My observation is that judges interpret said behavior as "smart alecky," and will tend to side with the other guy.
i have a question!!! irf a player cracks quest for the holy rellic, when they equip the equipment to the target is that considerd a spell.... would spellskite work against it?
i have a question!!! irf a player cracks quest for the holy rellic, when they equip the equipment to the target is that considerd a spell.... would spellskite work against it?

no, it's not a spell, rather it's a one shot effect of a resolving activated ability

aditionally, it doesn't target so Spellskite will not do anything to it
(you can activate Spellkite targeting the ability, but it just won't do anything to it)

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it is an activated ability, so Spellskite can target it
but there are no targets to change
proud member of the 2011 community team
Just have a question about a trigger that took place in a tournament.

Player A attacks player B wih an exalted creature 2/2. Play A does not declare how much the damage is for. Player B doesn't declare a blocker and when damage is assigned player A states 6 damage. Player B says you didn't declare exalted so I didnt block.

So the question is does the exalted trigger have to be declared or can the exalted trigger be declared anytime?

The current philosophy of the tournament rules is "assume a trigger has resolved until there is evidence that it hasn't".

Exalted creates a non-visible effect on the game state; it has to be acknowledged by its controller before the change (in this case the change to the attacking creature's p/t) has an effect on the visible game state (in this case on the life total of the defending player, or potentially on the survival of a blocking creature).

If player B is unsure whether or not A remembers Exalted, he has to either play it safe and block, potentially risking one of his creatures, or gamble that A will forget and risk being hit with more damage than he was hoping, or play it really safe and ask A what the creature's p/t are. He does risk alerting A to the trigger if A had actually forgotten, but he'll have to live with that. And if A answers "2/2", then he has missed his trigger and cannot later claim that it silently resolved.

DCI Lvl 2 Judge

Would it be possible phrase it in a shady way, like "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" (when there was actually 3 triggers) or something to that affect in an effort to have the controlling player give up one of the triggers if they acknowledge the question?

(I don't endorse such behavior, but would hate for someone to be conned in such a way.) 
you can't lie about derived information (such as P/T of a creature)

at higher REL you can refuse to answer, at FNM REL you have to answer truthfully
proud member of the 2011 community team
Would it be possible phrase it in a shady way, like "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" (when there was actually 3 triggers) or something to that affect in an effort to have the controlling player give up one of the triggers if they acknowledge the question?

To repeat 2goth4u's quote:
But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you.

If you say and you think it's true, it's a missed trigger. You've lost that third exalted.

If you say that and you know it's not true, it's cheating. You can't lie about derived information.

You're getting into grey area here. If you have a 2/2 exalted creature, it's not untrue to say "swing for 2" because that is correct up until Exalted would resolve. If you declare that the creature's power is only 2 AFTER the point at which Exalted would have resolved, then it will be either a missed trigger or Cheating, depending on investigation.  As the defending player, if the opponent says "swing for 2" you should still assume the player has remembered the trigger until there is a real indication that it was forgotten. This means you can make your block based on the assumption that the creature is indeed a 3/3, since that's the optimal play. Then if the player actually forgets, it's a bonus for you.

OR, you can make a block HOPING the player has actually forgotten, and that the creature will be a 2/2 when damage happens. However, when the opponent remembers, you can't get mad about it. You're playing a gambling game there by trying to gain advantage based on your opponent's misplays rather than playing the game of Magic. Remember that before lapsing triggers, all invisible triggers were ALWAYS assumed to have resolved. Play as if that's still the case. The difference now is that your opponent actually CAN FORGET an invisible trigger, and you'll benefit when that happens. Play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Policy.

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

You're getting into grey area here. If you have a 2/2 exalted creature, it's not untrue to say "swing for 2" because that is correct up until Exalted would resolve. If you declare that the creature's power is only 2 AFTER the point at which Exalted would have resolved, then it will be either a missed trigger or Cheating, depending on investigation.  As the defending player, if the opponent says "swing for 2" you should still assume the player has remembered the trigger until there is a real indication that it was forgotten. This means you can make your block based on the assumption that the creature is indeed a 3/3, since that's the optimal play. Then if the player actually forgets, it's a bonus for you.


Your sig says you are a level 2 judge, I hope you would never rule like that in a FNM. 'Swing for 2' with exalted triggers to come is misleading at best, cheating at worst.  

No, I was mostly talking about Competitive REL, where the IPG applies for missed triggers.

However, at FNM, I don't think this could ever really lead to a disqualification. A player trying to gain advantage by acting in a way that he or she believes is supported by policy is not Cheating. Of course this is misleading, and that would be the whole point. However, it's not illegal. It's also not something I would ever do personally, but that's not the guideline I use to make rulings. I use the policy documents provided.

How to handle forgotten triggers at Regular REL is something that we're still getting used to at this point. Never before could they actually be forgotten; the opponent always had to point them out. Now that it's possible to ignore an opponent's triggers, what is and isn't OK is much less obvious. I would ask a player doing this to try to play in a more clear way, as FNM is not the appropriate place for "gaming the system." I would also advise the opponent to ask questions to clarify what's happening before making decisions if there's any uncertainty.

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

Actually this is from the article:




But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you.

Based on the article if the person said "swing for 2" and then at declare blocks or even damage dealing the option for exalted is lost.
 
www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.a...

I was just seeking on clarification of the exalted trigger.  Sounds like some say you have to declare it at the declaration of combat, others are saying at damage dealing. Since I'm just now return back to mtg (from a long break that started in 1998) I just want some clarification. So my understanding since this is a non-visible game change you don't have to actually declare it. But if your opponent asked you and you say "swing for 2" you have now intentionally missed the exalted trigger. But in competitive REL you don't have to declare exalted if asked you just stay quiet?



Ok, I didn't see that part of the article. So yeah, I guess you simply can't try to trick your opponent into thinking you've forgotten a trigger like this. You can remain silent until the trigger would affect the visible game state, or acknowledge the trigger, but providing misleading information gets you to a missed trigger. Thanks for the info.

As previously stated, a trigger is not considered missed until you get to a point where it would affect the visible game state (creature dying, damage being dealt, blockers being declared illegally, etc.). As soon as you get to that point, you must demonstrate awareness of your trigger somehow. The way you acknowledge it isn't particularly important, as long as there's no question that you didn't forget it. "Deal 3 damage" with your 2/2 exalted is fine. "Your creature dies, mine lives" is fine.

You don't have to declare it when you attack in order to get it, but if the opponent asks you about it, you will have to acknowledge it. There's no benefit to NOT mentioning it when your opponent clearly hasn't forgotten about it anyway. The only reason to not mention it is in the hope that your opponent forgets it and you get an advantage. And if you say "No... no exalted..." when you really do have exalted, aside from not getting your trigger, that's also an intentional "missing" of your own trigger, which is Cheating. It would be difficult to argue that when your opponent asked you about it, you really didn't remember it at that point...

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

Would it be possible phrase it in a shady way, like "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" (when there was actually 3 triggers) or something to that affect in an effort to have the controlling player give up one of the triggers if they acknowledge the question?

To repeat 2goth4u's quote:
But let's say you attack and say "swing for 2." Now what? If you represent information that indicates you've forgotten the triggered ability, then you are considered to have missed it. "Swing for 2. No blocks? Ha ha! It's actually 3!" is not an angle available to you.

If you say and you think it's true, it's a missed trigger. You've lost that third exalted.

If you say that and you know it's not true, it's cheating. You can't lie about derived information.




I actually meant as the defender I say "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" so if they just affirm it, they've skipped one of the triggers.  The trick would be to get the trigger controller to acknowledge the wrong number of triggers.

I was responding to this:
The current philosophy of the tournament rules is "assume a trigger has resolved until there is evidence that it hasn't".
Exalted creates a non-visible effect on the game state; it has to be acknowledged by its controller before the change (in this case the change to the attacking creature's p/t) has an effect on the visible game state (in this case on the life total of the defending player, or potentially on the survival of a blocking creature).
If player B is unsure whether or not A remembers Exalted, he has to either play it safe and block, potentially risking one of his creatures, or gamble that A will forget and risk being hit with more damage than he was hoping, or play it really safe and ask A what the creature's p/t are. He does risk alerting A to the trigger if A had actually forgotten, but he'll have to live with that. And if A answers "2/2", then he has missed his trigger and cannot later claim that it silently resolved.

Sure, that works... If you ask about the triggers and he doesn't acknowledge all of them, then it would be pretty clear that he missed one of them. In the majority of cases, the player will just say "No, it's a 5/5. Stop that."

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

True. I wasn't trying to imply that one of the players was attempting to manipulate the rules in this case. It was more intended to be a caution to avoid approaching the judge with the attitude that your opponent is definitely wrong because of tournament rule such and such. My observation is that judges interpret said behavior as "smart alecky," and will tend to side with the other guy.



oh, man, more missed triggers stuff involving the change to the Regular REL.

i don't understand this! so if the tournnament rules about missed triggers at the Regular REL has changed, even in a way that i think promotes unfriendly gaming environments, are you saying that i'm not allowed to TAKE ADVANTAGE of that rule to try to get an advantage? because people take advantage of Magic Rules all the time to get an advantage, and judges at Regular REL don't penalize them for that.
` are you saying, now, that Tournament Rules aren't /really/ the rules that you abide by -- ie that if my opponent forgot their mandatory triggers (that don't involve a physical change to game state), that i actually have to remind them of it, even though the Tournament Rules seem to say otherwise?
This is the introduction to the Infraction Procedure Guide, in which missed triggers are defined:

The Magic™ Infraction Procedure Guide provides judges the appropriate penalties and procedures to handle rules violations that occur during a tournament held at Competitive or Professional Rules Enforcement Level (REL), as well as the underlying philosophy that guides their implementation. It exists to protect players from potential misconduct and to protect the integrity of the tournament itself. Rules violations usually require a penalty or they are unenforceable. Tournaments run at Regular REL should use the Judging at Regular REL document.

(Emphasis mine.)

So yes. These rules are not really the rules by which I abide. I certainly would abide them, were I ever to play in a Competitive or Professional environment. There is no mention of missed triggers at all in the Judging at Regular REL document. The rules surrounding them have not changed -- they never existed at all.

And for completion, here's the rule that applies to a "missed trigger" at Regular REL:

A player makes an in-game error not mentioned above
This will be the bulk of player errors – and we will usually leave the game as is. Fix anything that is currently illegal (like a green enchantment on a Pro:Green creature) and continue the game. However, if the error was caught straight away and backing up is relatively easy, do so. If you do choose to back up it’s important to reverse all the actions – no partial fixes!
@Bowshewicz:
thanks for your post; a nice side effect is that it gives me a small introduction to a few Tournament Rules documents.


There is no mention of missed triggers at all in the Judging at Regular REL document. The rules surrounding them have not changed -- they never existed at all.



but the Missed Trigger update earlier last month seems to contradict what you just said?
===
At Regular REL, there are really only two "rules." You aren't allowed to miss your own triggered abilities, and your opponent isn't required to remind you about them. The second one is a change that was put in at higher RELs a few months ago.
===
(www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.a...)

the way i'm reading this, the second rule (opponents not requiring to remind you of your own missed triggers) IS a change to the Regular REL rules?
I actually meant as the defender I say "Two exalted triggers makes him a 4/4?" so if they just affirm it, they've skipped one of the triggers.  The trick would be to get the trigger controller to acknowledge the wrong number of triggers. 

I don't think your allowed to do this as claiming that there are only two exalted triggers when there are actually three would be lying about derived information.  If you want to see if your opponent has forgotten about an exalted trigger you would have to ask them how many exalted triggers they control, you can't try to mislead them as to how many triggers they control.

@silpheed: Thanks for linking me to that article. I don't keep up with DailyMTG as well as I could, so I hadn't seen that. I think the best conclusion to draw is that the tournament rules do inform judges at Regular REL, but they don't mandate exact processes. At Regular REL, it'd be kind of harsh to tell a player that his Sigiled Paladin dies to a centaur because he forgot to (or wasn't aware that he had to) say that exalted trigged. Likewise, it'd be just as harsh to tell the defending player that he just chump blocked with his 3/3. So the doc tells us to take a small step back and let the players make more informed decisions.

Still, the players should be cautioned that it's against the rules to intentionally forget a trigger, and that exalted simply doesn't happen at higher levels of play. A warning might be handed out to discourage the attacking player from trying to mislead his opponent in the future, since it's not cool to take advantage of players who are hardly even expected to know what exalted means, let alone recall that his opponent's creature has it. That expectation is reserved for competitive play.
@silpheed: Thanks for linking me to that article. I don't keep up with DailyMTG as well as I could, so I hadn't seen that. I think the best conclusion to draw is that the tournament rules do inform judges at Regular REL, but they don't mandate exact processes. At Regular REL, it'd be kind of harsh to tell a player that his Sigiled Paladin dies to a centaur because he forgot to (or wasn't aware that he had to) say that exalted trigged. Likewise, it'd be just as harsh to tell the defending player that he just chump blocked with his 3/3. So the doc tells us to take a small step back and let the players make more informed decisions.

Exalted is just assumed to have happened, because it is not optional. You do not have to explicitly announce it before blocks or otherwise. It is even harder to miss it at Regular than it is at Competitive. The only way Sigiled Paladin would die is if its controller said my creature deals 2 damage, your creature lives, and mine dies, and they really had no idea it had exalted. Even if they did that, if the error was caught straight away and a judge was called, it would be backed up.

Toby Elliot also wrote three articles on the changes.
Still, the players should be cautioned that it's against the rules to intentionally forget a trigger, and that exalted simply doesn't happen at higher levels of play. A warning might be handed out to discourage the attacking player from trying to mislead his opponent in the future, since it's not cool to take advantage of players who are hardly even expected to know what exalted means, let alone recall that his opponent's creature has it. That expectation is reserved for competitive play.

Also there are no formal penalties at Regular REL. You should remind the players to play more carefully, but you do not hand out a Warning.
The Magic Tournament Rules apply at every sanctioned event, regarless of REL. And there was a recent update that modified this section to no longer apply only at Comp/Pro REL, which means it now applies at all sanctioned events.


4.4 Triggered Abilities
Players are expected to remember their own triggered abilities; intentionally ignoring one is Cheating. Players are not required to point out the existence of triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so within a turn if they wish.
Triggered abilities are considered to be forgotten by their controller once they have taken an action past the point where the triggered ability would have an observable impact on the game. Triggered abilities that are forgotten are not considered to have gone onto the stack.



So at FNM, you use the JAR instead of the IPG, but you still always use the MTR. 

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

The Magic Tournament Rules apply at every sanctioned event, regarless of REL. And there was a recent update that modified this section to no longer apply only at Comp/Pro REL, which means it now applies at all sanctioned events.

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but Regular works differently because of the JAR. The change to Regular is that your opponent is not required to remind you if they don't want to.

From the JAR:
A player has forgotten to take an required game action since the start of their last turn

If the action was optional, assume they chose not to — and no further fix is required. Otherwise, resolve the action now. If several instances of an action have been forgotten, resolve any that have been missed this turn. Any older instances are ignored.

A player makes an in-game error not mentioned above

This will be the bulk of player errors — and we will usually leave the game as is. Fix anything that is currently illegal (like a green enchantment on a Pro:Green creature) and continue the game. However, if the error was caught straight away and backing up is relatively easy, do so. If you do choose to back up it's important to reverse all the actions — no partial fixes!

From Toby Elliot's article:
The rule that says you don't have to remind your opponent about triggered abilities is being extended to Regular REL, bringing the actual rules at all RELs into sync. Of course, the Competitive REL remedy that makes you lose the trigger if you missed it isn't coming along for the ride. In general, if the controller notices it within a reasonable time frame, and it's not too disruptive, we'll resolve the trigger, just like we do now. But, it's all on the controller to remember, now.

I was responding to the other poster to show that there is a definition for what constitutes a missed trigger at Regular REL, which doesn't appear in the JAR.

That's all.

It still pretty much functions like any other forgotten "required game action", but resolving a missed trigger even at Regular REL may be too disruptive before you pass the time frame of "since the start of his or her last turn". In most cases, if the controller remembers before then, they get it. In some cases (e.g., Exalted), it certainly doesn't make sense to resolve that trigger once the next turn has started... :P

Level 3 DCI Judge Mission Viejo, CA

So just so I'm clear here.

If I say "I'm going to attack with my 2/2", then proceed to tap it and push it to the red zone and I fail to mention the three exalted triggers that are waiting to resolve and my opponent says "no block"

Is it legal for me to say "take 5"?

The exalted triggers have no visible effect on the game state so I don't have to acknowledge them until they would have an effect on the visible game state. ie. when the attacking creature would strike

I'm not representing derived info incorrectly by saying that in the near future my creature with a current power of 2/2 is going to be attacking nor am I indicating that I've forgotten the triggers.

Is this consistent with current trigger policy?

It's subtly different than saying "swing for 2".

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