Who can use the "Heavy Flail (Large)"?

33 posts / 0 new
Last post
I'm optimising a WarPriest Healer for combat because in my group no-one yet wants to play a healer for the next campaign. I found the "Heavy Flail (Large)" which has a damage roll of 2d8, making it a perfect damage weapon with a min 2, max 16 base damage. Especially since a number of the powers I've chosen do 2W damage. However, I can't equip it to the character as it appears in all red.

What characters are able to wield such a weapon?

 You aren't meant to be using a Large weapon as a Medium-sized creature.

 Large weapons are meant to be used by Large-sized creatures. Player character races are all Medium-sized or smaller creatures.  There are certain circumstances under which characters can become Large, but they are few and far between.

 Edit: A Bugbear can wield a large weapon as a Medium-sized creature because one of their racial features allows them to. However, Bugbears aren't exactly one of the better races because they lack any sort of support as far as racial feats.

Show

I am the Magic Man.

(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)

 

I am the Lawnmower Man.

(I AM GOD HERE!)

 

I am the Skull God.

(Koo Koo Ka Choo)

 

There are reasons they call me Mad...

Isn't there an Epic Destiny that allows you to wield Large weapons?

 A Bugbear can wield a large weapon because one of their racial features allows them to.



Cheers, precisely what I needed to know.

Eternal Defender, I think.

Show

I am the Magic Man.

(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)

 

I am the Lawnmower Man.

(I AM GOD HERE!)

 

I am the Skull God.

(Koo Koo Ka Choo)

 

There are reasons they call me Mad...

I am quite enjoying my cleric's two handed spiked chain myself. Had to burn a feat to get the proficiency but worth it for the +3 to hit. The [W] is 2d4 which is not bad. But having reach + Fell Strike knocking enemies prone is quite handy as a healer.

Eternal Defender, I think.


Yep.  Bugbear Avalanche Hurler/Eternal Defender/Dwarven Thrower Gouge for a [W] that breaks the dice tables.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

Eternal Defender, I think.


Yep.  Bugbear Avalanche Hurler/Eternal Defender/Dwarven Thrower Gouge for a [W] that breaks the dice tables.



What is the next step?  That IS a good question.
Logic would suggest 2d12, followed by... 4d6?

Eternal Defender, I think.


Yep.  Bugbear Avalanche Hurler/Eternal Defender/Dwarven Thrower Gouge for a [W] that breaks the dice tables.




Lol, my friend saw that and goes: "Please tell me that exists somewhere!"

Yell
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
Yep.  It exists right there where I said it ;)

I don't know if anyone's ever PLAYED it, mainly because it kinda sucks, but having giant[W] can be fun.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Yep.  It exists right there where I said it ;)

I don't know if anyone's ever PLAYED it, mainly because it kinda sucks, but having giant[W] can be fun.



He's like chomping at the bit to find an excuse to get the DM to allow a Bugbear now...lmao!

Personally, like you said, it kinda sucks; I don't see an issue in him playing it, but to each their own. Depends on the DM's feelings I guess.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
Large Mordenkrad with Avalanche Hammer enchantment?  4d8 just off of that.  Not necessarily good, but a lot of dice to throw.
 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

He's like chomping at the bit to find an excuse to get the DM to allow a Bugbear now...lmao!

Personally, like you said, it kinda sucks; I don't see an issue in him playing it, but to each their own. Depends on the DM's feelings I guess.


Btw, its champing at the bit. With an 'a'. 
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis

He's like chomping at the bit to find an excuse to get the DM to allow a Bugbear now...lmao!

Personally, like you said, it kinda sucks; I don't see an issue in him playing it, but to each their own. Depends on the DM's feelings I guess.


Btw, its champing at the bit. With an 'a'. 



Except in modern usage it isn't.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!

He's like chomping at the bit to find an excuse to get the DM to allow a Bugbear now...lmao!

Personally, like you said, it kinda sucks; I don't see an issue in him playing it, but to each their own. Depends on the DM's feelings I guess.


Btw, its champing at the bit. With an 'a'. 



Except in modern usage it isn't.



Give him a break, he is british.  "Modern" to him means 1800+
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I acknowledge that it's not necessarily very good, but it did make me ask what is probably a question with an obvious answer. How does a power like Twin Strike which is melee/ranged but specifies Str for melee, and Dex for ranged attacks, work with a Heavy Thrown weapon?

I'm just wondering whether it's possible to make an adequate (not optimal, but not terrible) Bugbear Ranger/Avalanche Hurler/Eternal Defender,  using a large weapon with Dwarven Thrower, for a heavy-thrown Twin Strike at-will. I'm guessing not, since any of the weapons you'd want to use with this schtick wouldn't be double weapons or one-hand weapons, so you couldn't satisfy the "two weapons" requirement of TS. So you'd probably want to build around Throw and Stab instead (would a Dwarven Thrower weapon satisfy both of the requirements for T&S, being "wield both a thrown weapon and a melee weapon"?)

by level 24, it seems to me that you'd be doing 8d6 brutal 2 (for a 2[w] attack) (+statics) against two targets with a Dwarven Thrower large Mordenkrad and two size bumps. Seems like it might be worth looking at if someone's keen to throw around lots of [w] dice, and Ranger is usually fairly optimisable.
I acknowledge that it's not necessarily very good, but it did make me ask what is probably a question with an obvious answer. How does a power like Twin Strike which is melee/ranged but specifies Str for melee, and Dex for ranged attacks, work with a Heavy Thrown weapon?

I'm just wondering whether it's possible to make an adequate (not optimal, but not terrible) Bugbear Ranger/Avalanche Hurler/Eternal Defender,  using a large weapon with Dwarven Thrower, for a heavy-thrown Twin Strike at-will. I'm guessing not, since any of the weapons you'd want to use with this schtick wouldn't be double weapons or one-hand weapons, so you couldn't satisfy the "two weapons" requirement of TS. So you'd probably want to build around Throw and Stab instead (would a Dwarven Thrower weapon satisfy both of the requirements for T&S, being "wield both a thrown weapon and a melee weapon"?)

by level 24, it seems to me that you'd be doing 8d6 brutal 2 (for a 2[w] attack) (+statics) against two targets with a Dwarven Thrower large Mordenkrad and two size bumps. Seems like it might be worth looking at if someone's keen to throw around lots of [w] dice, and Ranger is usually fairly optimisable.



Twin Strike is 2 weapons or a ranged weapon.

Using a Hungry/Dwarven Thrower/etc. magic weapon satisfies the ranged weapon requirement.

I also would like to know how the "ranged" part handles a heavy thrown weapon through.

Bugbear + Eternal Defender doesn't stack size if I recall, large weapons are large...not giagantic and thus bugbear allows large wielding while eternal defender would increase range, the size could not get any bigger.

If you go Bugbear, it is probably better to just take Destined Scion or one of the Demigod paths for dual stat increases to str and dex so you can use your large mord or large gouge as a thrown weapon but also deal quite huge melee damage if it ever occurs.

Speaking of Gouge, using twin strike + polearm momentum + fancy ranger feats (staggering strike, hobbling strike, spear push/rushing cleats/etc.) to prone targets at will from ranged and attack again for headsman chop + grounding shot extra damage while leaving them slowed/prone.

This was a quick mock up, the Twin Strike damage shows:
+36 attack
+9 dex
+15 half level
+2 proficiency
+6 enchanted
+3 feat
+1 Epic Combatant

+8 Damage bonus
+6 enchantment
+2 item = Dwarven Throwers

Unseen bonuses = +6 Bracers of Perfect Shot
+5 Headsman Chop
+2 Grounding Shot
+2d8 from Quarry (minus 2 die sizes from 3d8 due to feats to slide and slow)

Also have Deadly Axe for high crit, Spear Mastery for 19-20 crits.

Oh forgot to mention, the damage is 4d10 base for thrown, 4d8 for melee for the gouge.

I used Kimahri from FFX as the idea since...pictures of bugbears are few and far between, especially one wielding a polearm/gouge (that is damn near a gouge!)

Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Kimahri, level 30
Bugbear, Ranger, Avalanche Hurler, Destined Scion
Build: Hunter Ranger
Fighting Style Option: Hunter Fighting Style
Ranger Option: Prime Shot
Epic Heroism Option: Strength
Epic Heroism Option: Dexterity
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Sohei
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 26, CON 15, DEX 28, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 12
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 13, DEX 16, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 10
 
 
AC: 46 Fort: 45 Ref: 44 Will: 43
HP: 185 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 46
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +29, Athletics +28, Endurance +22, Nature +23, Perception +25, Stealth +36
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +15, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +18, Heal +18, History +15, Insight +20, Intimidate +18, Religion +15, Streetwise +16, Thievery +24
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Sohei Attack: Sohei Flurry
Bugbear Racial Power: Predatory Eye
Hunter's Quarry  Power: Hunter's Quarry
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Ranger Attack 1: Nimble Strike
Ranger Utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger Utility 6: Death Threat
Ranger Utility 10: Resume the Hunt
Avalanche Hurler Attack 11: Landslide Strike
Avalanche Hurler Utility 12: Quick-Draw Trick
Ranger Attack 15: Confounding Arrows
Ranger Utility 16: Howling Winds
Ranger Attack 17: Pounding Barrage
Ranger Attack 19: Surprising Arrow Stance
Avalanche Hurler Attack 20: Eruption of Steel
Ranger Utility 22: Forest Ghost
Ranger Attack 23: Manticore's Volley
Destined Scion Utility 26: Epic Recovery
Ranger Attack 27: Lightning Shot
Ranger Attack 29: Five-Missile Dance
Destined Scion Utility 30: Undeniable Victory
 
FEATS
Quick Draw
Level 1: Master at Arms
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Gouge)
Level 4: Hobbling Strike
Level 6: Lethal Hunter
Level 8: Grounding Shot
Level 10: Battle Awareness
Level 11: Polearm Momentum
Level 12: Staggering Strike
Level 14: Spear Push
Level 16: Distant Advantage
Level 18: Improved Defenses
Level 20: Deadly Axe
Level 21: Spear Mastery
Level 22: Triumphant Attack
Level 24: Headsman's Chop
Level 26: Epic Will
Level 28: Armor Specialization (Hide)
Level 30: Martial Mastery
 
ITEMS
Hungry Spear Gouge (Large) +6 x1
Dwarven Throwers x1
Bracers of the Perfect Shot (epic tier) x1
Hide Armor of Dark Deeds +6 x1
Eye of Awareness x1
Cloak of Distortion +6 x1
Greater Ring of Invisibility x1
Ring of Ramming x1
Belt of Vitality x1
Boots of Teleportation x1
====== End ======


The order of feats likely would need to change some, but need 15 wisdom for Polearm Momentum.  And 15 Con for Armor Specialization; I chose Dex over Str for more ranged damage where possible but with both being high the melee vs ranged damage is respectible.


I acknowledge that it's not necessarily very good, but it did make me ask what is probably a question with an obvious answer. How does a power like Twin Strike which is melee/ranged but specifies Str for melee, and Dex for ranged attacks, work with a Heavy Thrown weapon?

The definition of heavy thrown: "A ranged basic attack with a heavy thrown weapon uses the wielder’s Strength modifier for the attack and damage rolls, unless otherwise noted in the description of the power used."

Heavy/Light thrown only affect the stat used for ranged basic attacks. And even then, if you used one of the seeker RBA powers, it would use Wisdom. Twin Strike says it uses Dex for ranged attacks, so Twin Strike uses Dex for ranged attacks.

As Highborne notes, you can twin strike fine with only one ranged weapon - how else would bow-rangers function?

Highborn is wrong, however, about Eternal Defender not stacking. 
Bugbear says, "You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size."
Avalanche Hurler says, "When you use a light thrown weapon or a heavy thrown weapon as a ranged weapon, increase the weapon’s damage die by one size."
Eternal Defender says, "You can wield weapons as if you were one size larger"

So they all stack just fine.

The real hurdle to making such a build actually work well is finding a non-elemental source for static damage. By paragon, static damage modifiers matter far more than weapon dice, and being stuck with dwarven thrower as an enchant leaves you 14 damage behind frost.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Highborn is wrong, however, about Eternal Defender not stacking. 
Bugbear says, "You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size."
Avalanche Hurler says, "When you use a light thrown weapon or a heavy thrown weapon as a ranged weapon, increase the weapon’s damage die by one size."
Eternal Defender says, "You can wield weapons as if you were one size larger"


How does Bugbear and Eternal Defender stack?  Both say you can wield larger weapons but there are no larger weapons than large size?
How does Bugbear and Eternal Defender stack?  Both say you can wield larger weapons but there are no larger weapons than large size?



says who? just because they're not statted out in the compendium doesn't mean they don't exist. the PHB and RC list rules for increasing die sizes, which would serve no purpose whatsoever if you weren't allowed to use those guidelines to build a huge gouge that hurt as if it were gargantuan. 

so few PCs can use such things (and NPC damage is not dependant on weapons) that explicitly printing them all would be a huge waste of space. 
There are Large, Huge, and Gargantuan weapons. Each increase increases the die size by one and if you are Large, Huge, or Gargantuan, you can wield a 2her one size category smaller in one hand. PHB 220, literally a rule that has never changed.
So a Medium Bugbear would be able to wield weapons as though he were large (Eternal Defender), and wield weapons one size larger than himself (bugbear) as though they were his size, and they would be one die increment larger (Avalanche hurler). So, either he could wield a huge gouge, with a dice bump when it's used as heavy thrown, in two hands; or he could wield a large gouge in one hand (a 2h one size category smaller in one hand) if that were beneficial. I'm not sure if he could wield a large gouge in EACH hand with Two-Weapon fighting style; i'm also not sure if there would be any benefit to it.

Being able to throw an upsized huge gouge (2d6 medium, 2d8 large, 2d10 huge, 2d12? when thrown)  is funny. Being able to twin strike, push, prone, slow, and headsman's chop with it is also funny. The fact that it's a workable build, albeit without elemental damage, is exactly what I was hoping for - thanks for putting it together! I think I'd take Axe Expertise instead of Weapon Mastery though, just for the reroll on Quarry or crit damage (on top of the 2d10 brutal 1) - not a lot of benefit with Weapon Mastery on a character that already has quick draw and doesn't rely on multiple weapons.

Being 14 damage behind someone who uses a 1d10 weapon, while using a 2d12 brutal 1 weapon (using 2[w] at-will attacks in epic) looks almost balanced in terms of Twin Strike damage, too. The 2[w] portion of a 1d10 weapon is 9 damage, the 2[w] portion of a 2d12b1 weapon is 28 damage. I wonder how the overall damage would work out. (I'm not arguing that [w] is more important than static, just that what is normally a very minor effect seems to have been increased more than i expected here. Admittedly it would probably be a more fair comparison to compare a 1d12 greatbow archer ranger to a 2d10b1 avalanche hurler/demigod which is 11 vs 24 for a 2[w] attack.)

Interestingly with such a large [w] the weapon damage component scales up much better with multi-[w] attacks.

Admittedly this is putting a lot of striker resources into control, but it's still an interesting build, and I appreciate the input here!
You could wield a Large Gouge in each hand (if you wanted to). When the ED first came out people did stuff like that quite a bit (dual Fullblades). Not because it was good, just because it funny.
Eternal Defender allows you to weild weapons as though you are a large creature.
Bugbear racial allows to you weild weapons one size larger than your (medium) size.

Those two rules look like they are just two different ways to weild large weapons. They do not look like they stack. 
Because your lack of rules knoweldge travels with you everywhere, lets just spell it out...

Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size.

Godlike Stature (24th level): Your size doesn’t change, but your height and weight increase to 25 percent and 100 percent above the normal range for your race, respectively. You can wield weapons as if you were one size larger, and if you are normally Medium or larger, your melee reach increases by 1 square.

What on earth says anything about large. You're just making **** up. I hope. Either that or you're ignorant.
 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Eternal Defender allows you to weild weapons as though you are a large creature.
Bugbear racial allows to you weild weapons one size larger than your (medium) size.

Those two rules look like they are just two different ways to weild large weapons. They do not look like they stack. 

Funny how things actually are and how they look to you never quite line up... should check into that. Need a rules optometrist. Get a prescription. Whole nine yards. Well, squares.
Eternal Defender allows you to weild weapons as though you are a large creature.
Bugbear racial allows to you weild weapons one size larger than your (medium) size.

Those two rules look like they are just two different ways to weild large weapons. They do not look like they stack. 

Funny how things actually are and how they look to you never quite line up... should check into that. Need a rules optometrist. Get a prescription. Whole nine yards. Well, squares.

Isn't that more like 5-6 squares? Tongue Out

To spell it out:

These stack, because "as if you were one size larger" from Eternal Defender stacks with "your size or one size larger" by effectively increasing the base "your size" from which "or one size larger" gets computed.  
Stacking makes sense to me:

You start as Medium.

"...as if you were one size larger...": so now I treat myself as effectively large for purposes of wielding weapons

"...your size or one size larger...": Ok, so my size is effectively large, since we are talking about wielding weapons, and this says I can wield weapons my size (large) or one size larger (huge).

If both of them were worded like the second one, I could see them not stacking.  But the wording on the first one could stack with itself or the second one. 
Sig
Yes, I killed your BBEG with his own lair:
Setting: Tomb with a perilous bridge and cliff 100 feet above a lava pit. Mummy pops out of his sarcophagus, initiative: Felix, Half-Elf Artificer: Twin Strike with crossbow. Trump (ala Donald), Eladrin Warlord: Charges mummy with Opening Shove, pushing off the cliff. Mummy fails saving throw, and falls into pit. Sanshiro (ala Japanese "superhero" Segata), Minotaur Barbarian: Strength check to lift sarcophagus and carry to cliff. Free action, drop sarcophagus into square above mummy. Sarcophagus drops on mummy, shoving him further down into lava. Mummy: proceeds to make a series of horrible athletics checks to swim and climb cliff. Dies a horrible death with lava permeating every orifice. Entire Party: Watches on in delight, faces alit with the glow of lava and flaming undead.
Original CharOpper
I soap myself up, and turn up the hot water in the shower, so my sweat mixes with the soap, slickening my skin: +5 to grapple I use my own legs as a shield since only upper-body hits matter: +5 defense I use my teammates bodies to construct a vehicle for myself, and dual-wield their weapons because as long as I win, we all win: +10 attack, +10 defense I completely ignore the enemy, their attacks, the devastating damage they are dealing to me and my team, and strike directly for their base, completely obliterating them, their way of life, and any chance they had at survival as a species: WIN Ender: The Original CharOpper and Power Gamer.
Stacking makes sense to me:

You start as Medium.

"...as if you were one size larger...": so now I treat myself as effectively large for purposes of wielding weapons

"...your size or one size larger...": Ok, so my size is effectively large, since we are talking about wielding weapons, and this says I can wield weapons my size (large) or one size larger (huge).

If both of them were worded like the second one, I could see them not stacking.  But the wording on the first one could stack with itself or the second one. 




Seems to me this is the way to go as well, would still suggest clarification from WotC if need be.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
Which isn't ever going to happen in an official capacity. I mean, I could ask Mearls or Schwalb what they think, but it wouldn't be any more of an official answer than if I told you.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.