Smiting Spell Feat + Multi-touch Spells like Chill Touch and Corrosive Grasp

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Hi everyone!

Well, I've been building a gish character and I found this interesting feat called Smiting Spell (Player's Handbook II) that can let you prepare a touch spell to be transfered to a weapon that you hold and smash it on the enemy with a successful attack with that weapon.

And I've seen that there are spells like Chill Touch and Corrosive Grasp that give you touch attacks per CL, so a level 17 wizard can make 17 touch attacks with Corrosive Gasp using the rule of Holding The Charge (Player's Handbook, p. 176)

I saw in the Rules Compendium Book, page 126, that "If you touch anything while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. Intentionally touching anything, even a figment that isn’t really present, discharges the spell as well. You continue holding the charge if something touches you."

What I understand of these rules, if you consider the Smiting Spell Feat, is that I could cast a Smiting Corrosive Grasp in my melee weapon and, in my next turn, make a full attack and with each attack I would discharge the spell every time, and I could keep doing that until I run out of touches per CL, as long as I don't cast anything else or drop my weapon.

I just want to make sure that this is possible, can you really do this?

Thanks for your attention!

Have a nice day! Laughing
I just want to make sure that this is possible, can you really do this?

No.  Emphasis added:
The next time you strike an opponent with that weapon, the spell discharges.

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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
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Sure, I can't cast the spell and hit with the weapon at the same time, but I want to see if you can do the following:

1.- It's your turn, you cast a Smiting Corrosive Grasp (or any other spell that let you make touches per CL, like Chill Touch) in your melee weapon. Your turn ends.

2.- Let's suppose that an enemy aproaches you and you are close to the enemy.

3.- You, holding the charge of the Smiting Corrosive Grasp, make a full attack with your weapon and you hit your enemy 3 times, and the spell discharges 3 times as well.

If your character has a caster level of 15, for example, he could hold the charge of the smiting corrosive grasp and attack 15 times with his weapon discharging every touch per CL of the spell, as long as he doesn't cast any other spell or drops his weapon.

And you could only do this if the spell that you cast has touches per CL, and there's a fairly limited number of spells that have that feature. If you use Vampiric Touch, for example, the spell would discharge completely when you hit an enemy one time, as the Vampiric Touch does not have touches per CL.
You know, this for once Draco, I think you're wrong. I see no reason that he couldn't do it without a weapon, or with the feat, with a weapon, using normal iterative attacks. There is one proviso in the feat, and that is that all of the attacks would have to be used within 1 minute (10 rounds).

Neue 
Thanks a lot for the help! Laughing

That's another question that I have, the feat indeed says that you must discharge the spell within 1 minute after you place it into a weapon or it will dissipate harmlessly.

But I don't know how would that work with a Corrosive Grasp or a Chill Touch, because let's say that you place it in a weapon, and you make an attack with it before the 10th round, the spell discharges and you choose to hold the charge of the spell to make more attacks with it.

I don't know if:

1.- You have to try to make all the attacks that you can before the 10th round or;

2.- After each discharge of the spell you have another 10 rounds to discharge it again.
Actually, Draco is right on this one.  The feat says "the spell discharges" which isn't the same as using a "charge" from a spell that can be used to make multiple attacks.  When you make your melee attack you use up all everything that was in the spell.  Even if a spell could be used to make multiple attacks it is still lost when you use it throu the Smiting Spell feat.

If you need help understanding why it is simply to prevent what you want to do with it.  If your relatively high level you could use the spell and then have a bunch of touches to make although they may not be very powerful.  Now if you can just add those to what could be decent weapon damage it becomes MUCH better then if you can just use it to deliver a single touch spell.
If you're looking for ways to make multiple touch attacks with a multi-hit touch spell interesting, Smiting Spell won't work (because, as has been mentioned, the spell "discharges" - that's akin to expiring as far as holding-the-charge effects go). The usual approach is Duskblade, but that's got some serious limits on its spell list. However, martial maneuvers typically will work, and as far as I know this isn't widely practiced. The Storm Knight build in my signature makes an example of this: Storm Touch (10d6 + save-or-stun, one touch per CL) plus Avalanche of Blades (attack, then attack again at a cumulative -4, repeating until you miss) can really ruin someone's day. Another idea is to combine strikes that have impressive carrier effects (big damage, action denial, repositioning, etc) with a touch spell to make sure they hit.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

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Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I'm going to back down on this one, because PHII is not allowed in our game, and though I had a copy on hand to look it up, I'm not really familiar with it. So I'll defer to the others' opinions on this one.
Then... the only way to get the most of these type of spells is to deliver them through normal touch attacks?

Isn't there any other way to make it possible to hit many times with a weapon and a touch spell like Storm Touch?

The spellsword, with his channel spell, can't do that either, the ability indicates that the spell discharges when you hit the enemy with the weapon.

Therefore, it's not possible to hold the charge of a touch spell on a melee weapon without using the Storm Sentry class?
Then... the only way to get the most of these type of spells is to deliver them through normal touch attacks?

Isn't there any other way to make it possible to hit many times with a weapon and a touch spell like Storm Touch?

The spellsword, with his channel spell, can't do that either, the ability indicates that the spell discharges when you hit the enemy with the weapon.

Therefore, it's nor possible to hold the charge of a touch spell on a melee weapon?


As I mentioned before, duskblades get exactly this ability at level 13.

There's nothing inherently special about Storm Touch in this regard; it's just a standard multi-touch spell (and the only one that particular build knows). I was highlighting the interaction between it and martial maneuvers, which can be delivered with a touch attack if that attack is treated as armed (i.e. if you're holding a charge).

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Oh, of course, the Duskblades can do that, with the problem that they have a very limited spell list, and the only multi-touch spell that they can have access to is Chill Touch, I don't know if they can hold the charge of that spell with their Arcane Channeling.

And storm sentries can do it with the Storm Touch and the Avalanche of Blades maneuver only once a day as I see in the example that you shared (pretty cool, by the way). But the maneuver says that you have to make a melee attack, I don't know if that can include touch attacks.

There aren't metamagic feats or items or abilities like the smiting spell that can let you hold the charge with the melee weapon, are they?
Oh, of course, the Duskblades can do that, with the problem that they have a very limited spell list, and the only multi-touch spell that they can have access to is Chill Touch, I don't know if they can hold the charge of that spell with their Arcane Channeling.


List expansion effects exist out there. I haven't looked through them for touch spells specifically, but they're not hard to do in practice.

And storm sentries can do it with the Storm Touch and the Avalanche of Blades maneuver only once a day as I see in the example that you shared (pretty cool, by the way). But the maneuver says that you have to make a melee attack, I don't know if that can include touch attacks.


1) Storm Touch is a function of the greater dragonmark, not the storm sentry class features. It is only once per day, but the build is not a primary caster (in fact, it was largely intended to see how far I could go with a dragonmark, which has inherently poor stamina).
2) Martial maneuvers with a range of "melee attack" can be delivered with any armed melee attack. A normal touch (not an unarmed strike - just a regular touch, without a spell) isn't an armed melee attack, but if you're holding the charge on a touch spell it certainly is. The problem here is the speed of casting; most touch spells are standard-action effects, which delays when they can be used with maneuvers.

There aren't metamagic feats or items or abilities like the smiting spell that can let you hold the charge with the melee weapon, are they?


Not to my knowledge, no, but you can do something similar with spell storing effects. This is usually not worth it on melee weapons: the things you want enhanced with Spell Storing are ammunition (so you can spend a bit of time between adventures with your team wizard and have him load up a quiver for "special occasions", then you unload a number of situational spells equal to the number of arrows you can fire off per round, chosen as free actions).

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I found it! You can do that with the Item Familiar Feat!

You can invest a Spell Slot of the higher level that you can cast in the Item Familiar (that can be a melee weapon) and you can select a spetial ability for it to make it able to cast the spell invested in it.

If you invest a Wish spell on it, the Item familiar can cast it and duplicate a Scalding Touch (similar to Storm Touch, but with 13d6 fire damage), and hold the charge of the spell and release charges when you make successful attacks with it, as the familiar would touch the enemy with the attack.

Well, at least I interpret it that way, I don't know if it can work like that.
If you invest a Wish spell on it, the Item familiar can cast it and duplicate a Scalding Touch (similar to Storm Touch, but with 13d6 fire damage), and hold the charge of the spell and release charges when you make successful attacks with it, as the familiar would touch the enemy with the attack.


I think we have bigger problems here than attempting a multitouch. Wish is gamebreakingly good for other purposes and just happens to be able to emulate other spells. This is akin to funding a fully-functional space program because it happens to provide its employees with sandwiches.

Also, the item familiar isn't actually making the attack - you're swinging the familiar around until it makes bodily contact with the target. Ask your DM what would happen if a wizard cast a touch spell and was then picked up and used as a weapon by your team's brute

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Well, I'm just trying to explore the possibilities, I know that the Wish spell is a lot better for other purposes. I just want to see if it is possible to do that.

As for the item familiar, well, if its a weapon, it's not a biological living creature like a dog that you pick up and use as a weapon, it's made to be used like that, even if it has intelligence. The one thing to consider is that, when a wizard cast a touch spell and is holding the charge, he holds the charge in his hands; in the case of an item familiar, I don't know what part of it would be able to hold the spell, as it doesn't have extremities.

Now, as for the meaning of the word "discharge" in the concept of a multitouch spell, I still don't understand the following:

Here's the Holding the Charge rule of the Rules Compendium, p. 126:

Holding the Charge

If you don’t discharge a touch spell during the turn when you cast it, you can hold the charge of the spell indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round until you successfully discharge the spell. If you touch anything while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. Intentionally touching anything, even a figment that isn’t really present, discharges the spell as well. You continue holding the charge if something touches you.

In that text, the word "discharge" is used to indicate that the touch spell releases it's effect when you touch something. Therefore, it should mean, with the understanding given in recent posts on this thread, that the spell discharges completely.

¿How does this work with the multitouch spells? ¿the word "discharge" means that the spell releases one of its touches per CL or it means that it releases all of its energy?

The part of the rule that says that you can continue to make touch attacks round after round until you successfully discharge the spell can be read as:

1.- You can keep making touch attacks until you efectively touch the target and release the spell's effect, or;

2.- You can keep doing successful touch attacks until you release all of the spell's effect (the touches per CL).

Which of the two options is the correct one?

Sorry if I don't explain myself effectively, I don't have a very good english. Tongue Out
Iser, my original reading of the feat and my knowledge of the core rules SUGGESTS to me that your hope and my interpretation were the same, and that it should be allowed.

I'm not saying anymore that I'm right or that I'm wrong. Because we only play a core game. (Well, the DM is allowed to cheat, but not the players).

It doesn't look game-breaking to me to play little spells your way, like chill touch. Problem is, I'm not familiar with the high power spells you guys started talking about that do 13d6 of fire damage or whatever. No clue at all what they are.

So I'm suggesting that you follow the advice given by the others, instead of me.

Neue 
Hm. I didn't realize there was a section that discussed unintentional touches. That means both the item familiar trick and the hit-you-with-the-wizard trick will work.

The simplest explanation I can give is that the rules on touch spells are written for the overwhelming majority of touch spells - one touch, one effect, done. Multitouch spells - there aren't that many - tend to describe a touch effect and then tack on text like "you can use this melee touch attack one time per level". (While the spell parameters operate like a touch spell, the effect is actually working far closer to a buff, conceptually similar to, say, Produce Flame.) In the context of the touch spell text, that sentence overrides the part about discharging - in effect, that sentence allows the spell to discharge (deliver its effect) while you still "hold the charge".

That said, it's not technically the same thing as holding the charge - "you can use this melee touch attack one time per level" means that you have a melee touch attack as a result of the spell, rather than as a result of holding the charge. (Holding the charge has a couple extra rule interactions, such as the unintentional touch discharge and the dissipation if you cast another spell; if you've cast Chill Touch and touched with it once, you aren't holding the charge for the later touches, and thus you can still cast a different spell without disrupting the subsequent touches.)

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Thanks for the advice NeueRegal! Laughing

Well, I just want to fully understand how does this work, if I can't play these spells like that, I have no problem at all.

The Storm Touch and Scalding Touch spells are described in the Magic of Eberron book, they are level 5 and 7 sorcerer/wizard spells, respectively.

I know that if you can play those spells like that, it would be overpowered, but there are other rules than can be used to deal tremendous amounts of damage as well; for example, a barbarian that uses fury + berserk and does a leap attack with a large greatsword (using the Monkey Grip Feat), with full improved power attack, can deal a lot more than 65 damage with that single attack. (That's actually giving our DM some problems, a friend of ours does exactly that).

Tempest_Stormwind, thanks a lot for the time that you're giving to post in this thread! Laughing

Now, returning to the Smiting Spell Feat, the text doesn't say explicitly that you lose the spell after you hit with the weapon, so you should be able to still hold the charge of the spell, doesn't it?

Then, it sould be possible to deliver a Smiting Chill Touch many times with a melee weapon.

And if we consider that the subsequent touch attacks of the spell in question are the result of the spell, rather than the result of holding the charge, you could still cast while you deliver the remaining touches per CL with your weapon... I would agree to houserule that you lose the subsequent touches if you cast anything else, that's just too much.

Well, at least that's how I interpret the rules, what do you think?
To be honest I believe the feat works exactly like you initially thought (as a matter of fact, I've used the feat as such in previous games after going over it with a DM). I've always understood the term "discharge" in the rules for touch spells simply to refer to the act of successfully hitting with the spell. Also, as a matter of fact, when casting a touch spell you have the option of using an unarmed strike (weather you have the feat or not I believe you are still considered armed and thus don't provoke for attacking unarmed, however you still do provoke for casting a spell) or a natural attack to deliver the base damage of either and the damage of the touch spell as well. I simply read the feat as an option to channel the spell through a manufactured weapon. I really wouldn't find it all to game braking if used in that fashion to begin with, especially in comparison to a lot of othe spell shenanigans out there. As an added note, if I'm not mistaken you can in fact use the feat and attack with the weapon int he same round since you can deliver a touch spell attack in the same round that you cast it, however there is a little room for contention on that one.
I know that if you can play those spells like that, it would be overpowered


They're direct-damage spells that allow saving throws (for their secondary effects, which are much, much more useful than the damage they deal) and SR. The damage they will effectively deal is paltry, particularly compared to monster HP. This is the general case for most evocation damage spells; the conjuration ones are generally better because they tend to not allow SR or a saving throw.

Looking at the numbers shows that monster HP is roughly 13 per CR up until CR 15, and about 50 HP per CR, -650 above CR 15. This means that when Storm Touch (10d6 for House Lyrandar - that's 35 damage on average per touch) is available at CR 9, monsters will tend to have about 9*13=117 HP on average, while when Scalding Touch (13d6, or 45.5 per touch) is available at CR 13, monsters will tend to have around 13*13=169 HP on average. (These are approximate - they're rounded estimates from a linear regression - but you can look up the actual numbers at that link.) Both of these translate to four attacks needed to kill their targets - and most of the classes capable of casting those spells never get more than two attacks per round, and they usually prefer keeping their distance anyway! (This is why I used the Storm Knight as an example: using dragonmarks he got Storm Touch on a full-base-attack class.) This gets even worse with level - these spells don't advance their damage at all. (A CR 20 monster averages 400 HP, or twelve Storm Touch attacks or nine Scalding Touch attacks.)

Now look at those spell's secondary effects. Storm Touch has a Fortitude save (15+stat) for a stun effect, and Scalding Touch has a Fortitude save (17+stat) for a daze effect. A "standard" character starts out with 15 in their most important stat, boosts it at every level, and gets ability enhancers around levels 8 (+2), 13 (+4), and 15 (+6). (A specialist, particularly a primary spellcaster, tends to have higher starting scores and puts greater emphasis on the ability enhancer, but these numbers here are the baseline from which CR is computed, according to the DMG and MIC). This means Storm Touch, at the level it's online, has a DC of 19, while Scalding Touch has a DC of 23. These are made against average Fortitude save bonuses of +12 and +14, respectively - which translate into a 30% and 40% success rate for you per touch. Since a stunned or dazed target can take no actions on their next round, and a target that can't act can't hurt you, you've effectively removed them from combat after just two or three touches (as compared to four with raw HP damage - remember that a wounded target fights as well as a fully-healed one!) The DC will continue to improve a little bit as your casting stat improves, but monster saving throws advance faster than this - and not only is Fortitude the biggest of the three for almost every level, but the higher your levels go the bigger your chance of fighting something immune to the condition.

Considering how there are spells which are much better at removing targets from battle than these, and there are much more efficient ways to deal damage, these aren't all that impressive even with multiple touches. Don't look for raw numbers - put them in context with the foes you're facing.
but there are other rules than can be used to deal tremendous amounts of damage as well; for example, a barbarian that uses fury + berserk and does a leap attack with a large greatsword (using the Monkey Grip Feat), with full improved power attack, can deal a lot more than 65 damage with that single attack. (That's actually giving our DM some problems, a friend of ours does exactly that).


First, I will warn you: Monkey Grip is insanely bad as a feat. Generally speaking, anything that you invest in using a really big weapon is a waste - melee damage's primary source is Power Attack, not weapon size. You might actually get ridiculed for suggesting this.

(Example: The Large greatsword with Monkey Grip still suffers a -2 attack penalty. If he were using a regular Medium greatsword, he wouldn't need to spend the feat on Monkey Grip, and could Power Attack for an extra -2 and still hit just as often. The Large greatsword deals 3d6 damage as a base (average 10.5), while the Medium greatsword with the extra -2 Power Attack deals 2d6+4 damage as a base (average 11) at the same attack bonus, and that's without Power Attack enhancers added in. The guy with the Medium sword also has the option of not using that extra Power Attack, if he's fighting a foe where accuracy matters - remember to scale those damage values by your chance to hit. Given how the guy with the Medium sword is up a feat, there's no contest here.)

Second, I assume you're talking about a frenzied berserker using rage+frenzy. Frenzy is a tactical liability - you step on a sharp rock or get cherry-tapped by a lucky shot from a weak enemy, and you flip out and decapitate your party wizard. A wise berserker burns off all his frenzies at the start of the day to prevent this - and an unwise one forces his team to dedicate resources to stopping him if there's a problem. (There are ways of doing this that are pretty cheesy, but you shouldn't need to protect yourself from an ally as well as your enemies!) The true power of the berserker is its Power Attack enhancers. Notice a trend here?

Third, that specific example is numerically pretty poor, particularly after level 6 or so (the level at which the usual "Ubercharge" feats can all come online). Given how the earliest you can have Improved Power Attack is level 11, I'll use those numbers here. The typical ubercharge feats are Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush (not actually used most of the time, it's a prereq), Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack. The last feat adds +100% of your Power Attack bonus damage to your attacks (the same benefit that the best Frenzied Berserkers get - although it stacks with that if you want), and Shock Trooper gives you the option of transferring your Power Attack penalty to your AC instead of your attack rolls so that super-charge will hit. The Pounce ability is usually added in here as well (Complete Champion gave this ability to every barbarian, basically), which lets you full attack at the end of a charge. You can get all of this by level 6 (Barbarian 2 / Fighter 4 qualifies and has feats to spare). Using the same basic array as before (15 starting Strength, boosted every 4 levels, +2 Strength booster) and a basic "charger's" +1 Valorous greatsword (you can probably do better than this at 11th as a primary warrior!), the average damage this guy deals is 109 per swing without raging (and he's swinging three times per pounce, at +18/+13/+8 - which, against an AC 24 CR 6 foe, hit 75%, 50%, and 25% of the time, so you expect to deal 163.5 damage in a single round (not accounting for criticial hits). CR 11 foes have 164 HP or so, meaning this character will actually kill an average target in one round, so that target won't get a chance to strike back (given how his AC has a -13 penalty here from charging with Shock Trooper, that's a good thing).) This only gets more insane as you get more multipliers in there - and this is just using a "standard" (non-specialist) assumption about the character's ability scores and equipment, with only the bare-bones charging infrastructure (i.e. no rage, no berserker boosts, no specific multiplier-friendly damage, no size enhancers, no White Raven charges...).

If you can't deal enough damage to incapacitate the target (like the aforementioned ubercharger), you'd be better off concentrating on denying the target their ability to act (either by cutting off their actions entirely or by limiting what actions they can perform). Melee is generally limited in options here to things like tripping or repositioning the targets (a round spent standing up or moving back into position is a round where they can't bring a full-round action to bear), often through using attack of opportunity mechanics, while spellcasters have much better options for this overall.

Moral of the story here: Big numbers aren't the solution. Reliable numbers, in the context of their targets, are. Putting it poetically, while having 50 when you need 100 isn't optimal, neither is having 300 when you need 100 once. Having 100 every time you need 100 is optimal. If all you can supply is 50, changing the conditions so they only demand 50 is an ideal alternative.

(EDIT: Here's a firsthand example. I'm playing a single-classed hexblade right now. We're level 9 at the moment. I'm routinely dealing about as much damage per round as your berserker (almost exactly, in fact - accounting for miss chances and criticals, I typically output just under 65 damage each round. That's not the raw damage roll - it's the damage roll scaled by my chance of hitting, like I was doing above), and I'm not built as an ubercharger or martial adept. How do I pull that off? Respectable (though not spectacular) Strength and a serious emphasis on making sure every attack, even the last one on a full attack, will connect with my target if I use full Power Attack. The Dead for Nothing link in my signature shows how we looked at level 8.)

Now, returning to the Smiting Spell Feat, the text doesn't say explicitly that you lose the spell after you hit with the weapon, so you should be able to still hold the charge of the spell, doesn't it?


"The rules don't say I can't" isn't a good justification. The PHB does not say that I can't swallow something larger than my head.

The meaty text for Smiting Spell is: The next time you strike an opponent with that weapon, the spell discharges. The target takes the normal damage and effects of a successful attack in addition to the spell's effect. Once you place a spell into a weapon, you must discharge it within 1 minute, or its energy dissipates harmlessly.

Once a touch spell discharges, it's gone. I think the spell itself might override this (in the case of multitouch spells, they have that extra attack text - but that refers specifically to a touch attack, so this is partially contentious), but I'm not the one sitting in your DM's seat.

Although I will say repeatedly arguing the same point by asking for second, third, and fourth opinions isn't a good rhetorical strategy.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Well, that makes it pretty clear for me, I'm still quite new in the game and I like to search for ways to optimize my character. I think that we can both conclude that the issue with the Smiting Spel feat + multitouch spells will depend mainly on the DM's interpretation or decision to houserule it.

Part of the text of the feat says that "You can alter a spell with a range of touch to transfer its energy from your hand to a weapon that you hold", and that should alter the extra attack text of the multitouch spell as well.

I don't intend to have a rhetorical strategy by arguing the same point by asking for second, third and fourth opinions, I simply want to understand how do the rules work, and the different oppinions can help me see things that I don't look at in the first time interpreting them, and that can help me play better.

Thanks a lot for the help! Laughing
Iser already said that he has made his peace with the thoughts. 

That said though, I got time to look into things. Like Tempest said, there are few multiple touch spells. And like Lash said, there are confusing rules about natural attacks (natural weapons), and now there is this feat, letting you treat a weapon the same way.

"Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."

Adding to that, a multiple-touch spell with the feat (what was it named? Smiting?), what's the difference if it's a 1d4 claw attack or if it's a 1d6 shortsword attack?

I say again, this is hardly any kind of game breaking difference. 

Aside from enforcing the 10 round time limit, I don't think that it's a big deal for something that you had to spend a +1 metamagic level casting for. 
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