Making trading better for players

43 posts / 0 new
Last post
First and formost, this is not ment as a discussion about bots, hoarders, professional traders and redeemers versus
regular players' -- but a discussion about how MTGO can become a 'trading card game' again online.

Three days ago, I wanted one specific card.
So I figured out what bots paid for that card.
I rounded up to the nearest ticket, and put out a classified with that price.
... After 24 hours, I began to feel a bit overwhelmed about how 'hard' trading is.
I outpaid all the bots, every single one of them, but still could not get a player to sell it to me.
Sure enough, there were 100 classified ads offering to sell and buy this card -- but none of them beat my price.

It took 37 hours of my laptop running with MTGO in the background before one player sold me the card I wanted.
I opt to not believe that nobody wanted to sell that card, and assume that the classifieds are so hard to navigate properly that those that wanted to sell simply checked the buy-price of their 3 favorite bot friends and sold it to them instead of selling it for the best price they could get for it.

I could have paid 4$ out of my pocket to have that one card 'right now' -- but...
I didn't NEED that card right there and then, and I was annoyed that trading cards was so inelegant.
The developers need to face one fact:

MTGO is a horrible place for player to trade cards already.
Before bot owners chip in to defend their bots 35% profit margin while arguing that their bots help distribute cards, I have to add:
They bots do help distribute cards, because of how horrible the current system is.
You draft.
You get 1 decent card and 4 half-decent cards, and want to trade them.
You have absolutely no way to sell those cards in the current client. You HAVE TO dump them to a bot, then to another bot, then to another bot, then to another bot, then to another bot -- before you can determine who you actually want to sell to.

We can all buy cards with tickets -- but everyone who does not have a bot or extremely many and good friends will always go negative in trades (an average of 35% of each card's value in just one trade), which is completely agains the spirit of a 'trading card game' in my opinion. 

Here's two suggestions to make trading easier and more viable for players by giving players more powerful tools to trade.

===========

Auction house:
One tab lets you search, bid on, buy and auction out cards.

One auction-server may be needed, but the advantage is immense for the community.

Why?
Because this is an online trading card game, and the technology is pretty darn basic.
Over time, Wizards could even add a 1% fee for auctions

This is all the information that is needed to make such a system work:
Card owner ID
Unique Card ID
Min sell price in tickets

Instant sell price (Buyout)
Hours (24 or 48)
Time of auction start rounded up to the nearest hour.
Current highest bid
Current highest bidder ID
Winner ID; Same as Owner ID unless a person has won the card, returning it to it's righful owner automatically when the auction is over.

It's a rather simple and safe thing to implement -- for as long as the server is capable of changing the owner of cards.

Advantages:
-Players and bots could set their absolute, one and only, sell price, allowing players to search for actual copies of cards that actually are for trade.
-Bots would only use auctions to buy cards and sell super-rare cards.
...
-Tickets worth 1/10 of the current tickes would make trading more convenient.
-A maximum of 5 auctions per account would limit the resources needed.
-The price of standard will decrease for players that don't own personal trade-bots

-------------------

Even simpler:
Copy and paste the classifieds area and modify it to allow each player to have 25 entries each, where they MUST list an card they OWN without additional formatting and an actual price without additional formatting;

For instance;
Card name................|.Price..|.Version.|...Type...|
Falkenrath Aristocrat.|..200..|....DKA...|.Non-foil.|
Falkenrath Aristocrat.|..309..|....DKA...|....Foil ....|
Falkenrath Aristocrat.|..100..|....PRM...|.Non-foil.|

Allowing players to sort entries by price.


===========

Trade forum, bots not allowed -- but their owners are.
Why there isn't an official sanctioned trade forum is mindboggling, when ALL talk about trade in the client itself is strictly prohibited except for the post-nuclear wastelands that are the unofficial trade and auction channels where only vultures and inexperienced players dare set their feet.
(And the orcs actually TELL NEW PLAYERS to go there, feeding them to the vultures!)

Players looking for cards can't even ask for casual trades, and accepting a 'casual trade' invitation has a 90% chance of ending with the other guy trying to buy your Sorin, Lord of innistrad inbetween 2x Sorin's Thirst or Liliana of the Veil inbetween Liliana's Shade or Jace the Mind Sculptor for 2x Rancor or 1 ticket -- which are the only non-commons that person has available for trade. 
And that guy will tell you how gates are better than shocklands because of the gate-support and ask if he can trade 2x gates for one of your shocklands.

Diablo II still has an active trading community forum (albeit unofficial) 12 years after it's release where players can buy and sell ingame items, used for duels, at stable prices using ingame economy.
Not having a trading forum for an online TRADING CARD GAME... it's literally taking the "trading" out of 'trading card game'.

In a perfect world

===========

 
You have to remember it was the buy price.  If you offered a price between the buyprice and the sell price then I bet you would of had much better luck.  You were trying to buy a card for below the market value and just because your buy price was a few cents higher does not mean the other bots are busy buying fistfulls of that same card. 
PureMTGO.com
Cape Fear Games located in Wilmington, NC. Get 20% extra MTGO credit for your paper cards.
I think that your logic of how human trades are done is a little off. If someone is trying to sell a card they will put an add in classfields. I assure you they will not seek out buyers. That just doesnt' make sense.

If I want to sell a card (and do not need the tickets asap - in that case I would go to a bot and not wait for players to find me) I just put an add in classfields. I see no point in seeking out who wants to buy it from me. That's just a waste of my time.

On the other hand if I want to buy a card then I go hunt down any better deals from players. 
Yes, yes, we all want an auctionhouse. There's no need to continually wrap it up in your anti-bot sentiment.

Please use the designated feedback threads for all beta feedback.

Locked. 

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


Show
Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
Yes, yes, we all want an auctionhouse. There's no need to continually wrap it up in your anti-bot sentiment.
 



Well, I don't.

Or, to be more precise, I don't really care and I'd rather have the time and resources spent on designing and programming an action house to go to other areas of the game that IMVHO are more needed - the non-trading, social aspects of the game (chat and clans mainly), multiplayer, deckbuilding and collection management, leagues.
Well, I don't.

Or, to be more precise, I don't really care and I'd rather have the time and resources spent on designing and programming an action house to go to other areas of the game that IMVHO are more needed - the non-trading, social aspects of the game (chat and clans mainly), multiplayer, deckbuilding and collection management, leagues.


Not prioritizing it isn't the same as not wanting it. There are very few who would outright oppose an auction house if WotC could snap their fingers and have one.

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


Show
Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
It's not an anti-bot sentiment, it's a legitimate question:
"Why isn't there any good way to trade cards with other players?" and two solutions that solve the problem; allowing players to trade with other players. 
Frostraven, you make excellent points!  I hope that this Auction House idea becomes a priority after the BETA in-duel experience is perfect.

I don't think its fair to call this anti-bot sentiment.  To me it just seems like pro-human sentiment, which is what the trading area needs more of. 
Trade forum, bots not allowed -- but their owners are.
Why there isn't an official sanctioned trade forum is mindboggling, when ALL talk about trade in the client itself is strictly prohibited except for the post-nuclear wastelands that are the unofficial trade and auction channels where only vultures and inexperienced players dare set their feet.

Diablo II still has an active trading community forum (albeit unofficial) 12 years after it's release where players can buy and sell ingame items, used for duels, at stable prices using ingame economy.
Not having a trading forum for an online TRADING CARD GAME... it's literally taking the "trading" out of 'trading card game'.

There are lots of trading forums both for Magic Online and for paper cards. There just are not any on wizards.com.
I've changed the name of this thread to "Making trading better for players."

I think there's a difference between a thread like this and giving feedback in the designated Wide Beta threads, which focus on what's already in the Wide Beta client and what people want to see implemented in the future for the Wide Beta client. This topic is a little more general and has to do with the way people feel about MTGO trading and how they want to see it handled in the future. Obviously the future of MTGO is the Wide Beta client, so there's a good chance you won't see any changes to trade in v3. Still, as Worth and others on the MTGO team have said, nothing is off the table for future Magic Online client development, and I think a lot of people want to see a number of improvements when it comes to trading.

Please just keep in mind that if you're going to compare or describe elements of the UI that should be improved, it would be nice to see the idea posted in THIS feedback thread.

Sean Gibbons

Associate Community Manager

Official MTG Twitter: @Wizards_Magic Official MTGO Twitter: @MagicOnline

I gave up long ago trying to "trade" with individual players through the Classifieds. The search interface is just too painful for me. The only thing I use the search feature for is to find which of my favorite bots are currently available for trades.

I wish the owner of a bot chain could associate all of the bots together so its easier to find them. For example, they could all be in the same clan and I could filter the classifieds for just accounts in that clan.

Don't forget that an Auction House needs to support more than just individual cards. For example, there's also packs and Avatars.
We used to have a trade forum. No one used it. There is no need to add another.

And an AH is providing the same service bots are. Only instead of having to pay for or code your own bot you want wotc to do it for you. They gain nothing from it.

Margins are not even that good.

Geist of Saint Traft [ISD]                         27        30         
Liliana of the Veil [ISD] 34.75 39


10% for geist, 11% for Lil

Margins on things under a quarter might be 50+% but then we're talking pennies.

While searching the classifieds could be better, it is not that bad. Human to Human trading is far overrated.
While searching the classifieds could be better, it is not that bad.

I have a difficult time thinking of how it could be much worse and still be referred to as "searching".
^ Indeed.

Functionality I would have expected from an online trading card game's classifieds section:
...

It's actually hard to know where to start.

1: Separation of buying and selling ads.
2: Separation of actual cards or types refered to in ads
3: Standard and forced formatting of prices so that prices are searchable

Really, why isn't the classifieds section strictly a classifieds list of cards and rarities people have available for trade??
10-16 items per account, each item bound within that person's one post and correct items highlighted by the search.

Needed words per trade item:
Selling OR buying | Amount | (Foil) Commons OR uncommons OR rares OR mythics OR [Item Name]  |  price


At that point, half the work to create an auction is done. 

Example of a classified using such a system:

[Gibberish section;  Hello world, I am here to trade the following
items and have a massive collection for casual trade too!]
Selling | Amount | Item 1........... | Price ||| Selling | Amount | Item 2............ | Price
Selling | Amount | Item 3........... | Price ||| Selling | Amount | Item 4............ | Price
___
Buying | Amount | Item A............| Price ||| Buying | Amount | Item B............ | Price



...
Setting the number of active items within an add to 16 would dramatically improve the space MTGO-users have to list their wares.


Added functionality after that point;
1: Sort by price.

2: Allowing players to "leave" their item X for trade for Z tickets -- or leaving A tickets for trade for item B

3: Allowing players to trade their cards while logged off by the above method.

4: Allowing other players to interact with the price in a safe manner through an de facto auction;
Min-price: The least amount of tickets a the item CAN be traded for: Displayed or hidden (preferably displayed)
Current bid: The amount of tickets currently bid on that item: Displayed
Current highest bidder: Hidden string 
Buyout: The maximum price and the price the card can be bought for, bypassing bids below that value.

...
=======

Imagine that you're a player that like to change your deck. A LOT.
The bot you trade with has a 35% profit margin, on average, across the cards you buy and sell:

100 tickets invested in deck 1 --> 65 tickets left when you sell your deck to spend tickets on deck 2 --> 42.5 tickets to spend on deck 3 --> 27 tickets to spend on deck 4

That is not including inflation of uncommons, commons, rares and non-godly mythics
^ Indeed.

Functionality I would have expected from an online trading card game's classifieds section:
...

It's actually hard to know where to start.

1: Separation of buying and selling ads.
2: Separation of actual cards or types refered to in ads
3: Standard and forced formatting of prices so that prices are searchable

Really, why isn't the classifieds section strictly a classifieds list of cards and rarities people have available for trade??
10-16 items per account, each item bound within that person's one post and correct items highlighted by the search.

Needed words per trade item:
Selling OR buying | Amount | (Foil) Commons OR uncommons OR rares OR mythics OR [Item Name]  |  price


At that point, half the work to create an auction is done. 

Example of a classified using such a system:

[Gibberish section;  Hello world, I am here to trade the following
items and have a massive collection for casual trade too!]
Selling | Amount | Item 1........... | Price ||| Selling | Amount | Item 2............ | Price
Selling | Amount | Item 3........... | Price ||| Selling | Amount | Item 4............ | Price
___
Buying | Amount | Item A............| Price ||| Buying | Amount | Item B............ | Price



...
Setting the number of active items within an add to 16 would dramatically improve the space MTGO-users have to list their wares.


Added functionality after that point;
1: Sort by price.

2: Allowing players to "leave" their item X for trade for Z tickets -- or leaving A tickets for trade for item B

3: Allowing players to trade their cards while logged off by the above method.

4: Allowing other players to interact with the price in a safe manner through an de facto auction;
Min-price: The least amount of tickets a the item CAN be traded for: Displayed or hidden (preferably displayed)
Current bid: The amount of tickets currently bid on that item: Displayed
Current highest bidder: Hidden string 
Buyout: The maximum price and the price the card can be bought for, bypassing bids below that value.

...
=======

Imagine that you're a player that like to change your deck. A LOT.
The bot you trade with has a 35% profit margin, on average, across the cards you buy and sell:

100 tickets invested in deck 1 --> 65 tickets left when you sell your deck to spend tickets on deck 2 --> 42.5 tickets to spend on deck 3 --> 27 tickets to spend on deck 4

That is not including inflation of uncommons, commons, rares and non-godly mythics



Arbitrage exists. It would exist within any trading system. If you are buying and selling a lot I would hope you could become smarter as you do more trades and learn how this works. Every card has highs and lows. Finding when to sell and when to buy is an artform. The bots existance actually facilitates this for those of us who care to use them. For instance...today I just sold off 60 tix worth of cards (6 cards) when I bought those self same cards at 25% of that a few months ago. Seeing them hit a high point seemed like a perfect time to sell for me. Now I could have been wrong about where the price will stop climbing but that is where the art comes in.

As for profit margins...35% is outrageous. I haven't traded with a bot with that high a margin in ages. You learn after a while to steer clear of the obvious rip off bots.

Winter.Wolf (ugh at this new forum with the ridiculous double login)


Imagine that you're a player that like to change your deck. A LOT.
The bot you trade with has a 35% profit margin, on average, across the cards you buy and sell:


Stop trading with terrible bots.
 

100 tickets invested in deck 1 --> 65 tickets left when you sell your deck to spend tickets on deck 2 --> 42.5 tickets to spend on deck 3 --> 27 tickets to spend on deck 4
That is not including inflation of uncommons, commons, rares and non-godly mythics



Typically you're not going to get 100% of your investment back. An AH isn't going to change that. Better formatting isn't going to change that. 

While searching the classifieds could be better, it is not that bad.

I have a difficult time thinking of how it could be much worse and still be referred to as "searching".



I post ads all the time (usually to buy promos) and always get people messaging me. So they must be able to successfully search and find my ad. When trying to sell any money rares/mythics I get drafting, I am able to scan the classifieds and find humans and bots buying them.

It takes a little more effort then it should but its by no means impossible.  
Its virtually impossible to search for Avatars in the Classifieds. Sure, I can enter the name in the "search" field and then scan the results, most of which are for the card, not the Avatar. Visually scanning all of the results to see which reference Avatars and which reference cards is possible, but can be error prone. I wish I had that much time left in life that I didn't mind wasting so much of it. Maybe you younger folks don't mind doing this, but I'd rather spend that time on retirement planning.

Imagine if they had a similar interface for finding an open casual game? Create an entry in the Casual Play Classifieds with "Standard, no counter-spells" and let people use a search box to find and join your game.

The state of the Classifieds is a great benefit for bot chains. People like me just use the Classifieds to open a trade with our favorite bot. The search interface works pretty well for finding them.

The state of the Classifieds is a great benefit for bot chains. People like me just use the Classifieds to open a trade with our favorite bot. The search interface works pretty well for finding them.


I don't agree. Some bot classifieds seek to mislead buyers into thinking they are part of a chain when they are not. Savvy users learn to work around these untruths, but it's not an ideal system.
Even when you know you have the right bot the listed details can be out-of-date.

A good system would be for the client to expose each account's list of tradable items to searches. That way you'd know exactly which accounts have the item you want, and how many copies. There would need to be a way for users to turn searches on and off so they can choose when they are available for trade (it could just be when you're in the classified ad room). There would still be a place for the classified ad, you still need to know about pricing for instance.

The state of the Classifieds is a great benefit for bot chains. People like me just use the Classifieds to open a trade with our favorite bot. The search interface works pretty well for finding them.


I don't agree. Some bot classifieds seek to mislead buyers into thinking they are part of a chain when they are not. Savvy users learn to work around these untruths, but it's not an ideal system.
Even when you know you have the right bot the listed details can be out-of-date.

Perhaps I'm just a savvy user. I've learned the search terms to use for my two favorite bot chains so that I only see their open bots. I don't have any trouble evading the imposters. As far as the listed details go, I ignore them. I'm just looking for a bot to open a trade with, that's all I'm searching for.

Perhaps I should say that the search interface works fine for the bots I want to find. For other bots, YMMV.
@Searchfunction: it doesn't deseve this name really.
I mean there are so many things that could be done even if you keep it as it is now, like allowing to search with Regular Expressions or maybe making a better interace for posting.
But the real joke is that you can't search for multiple words.
If you search "cardname foil" (without the " of course) you won't find posts that say foil cardname or if you search for mulitple cardnames like "cardname1 cardname2" you won't find posts that say cardname1 xxx yyy zzz cardname2.
I mean come on this is sooooo easy to fix that my little brother could do it if i introduce him to programming for a day ....

We used to have a trade forum. No one used it. There is no need to add another.

And an AH is providing the same service bots are. Only instead of having to pay for or code your own bot you want wotc to do it for you. They gain nothing from it.

Margins are not even that good.

Geist of Saint Traft [ISD]                         27        30         
Liliana of the Veil [ISD] 34.75 39


10% for geist, 11% for Lil

Margins on things under a quarter might be 50+% but then we're talking pennies.

While searching the classifieds could be better, it is not that bad. Human to Human trading is far overrated.



seriously?
you are happy that you shove tix into some bot owners pocket every time you buy something, only because of the developers inability to provide a proper system?
The bots only exploit the current system and its a joke that this is going on for years now.
seriously?
you are happy that you shove tix into some bot owners pocket every time you buy something, only because of the developers inability to provide a proper system?
The bots only exploit the current system and its a joke that this is going on for years now.



Yes. They are providing a service, same as a LGS would. You can't walk into your LGS and say I want to trade this $10 card for that $10 card in your case. They would give $7 for your card and you'd have to pay $10 for theirs.

I was around when there were few to no bots. Trading was awful. It usually went like this:
1. I post a message in trade chat asking for 5 cards.
2. Someone messages me saying they have some of those, we open trade.
3. I grab 3 cards I need totaling 2 tix in under a minute.
4. I wait 15 minutes while the other person looks through my collection
5. They select a bunch of cards totaling 15 tix and say ok?
6. I have to say no, tell them its not close to equal and then...
7a. We have to spend another 15mins haggling over prices and whittling down their selected cards until the trade is less lopsided. I will still end up giving more than I'm getting.
7b. They just cancel the trade and I have to start all over.

I will gladly pay a 10% fee to not waste 30mins of my time every trade.              
I was also around back in the days Naibock mentions. That's a pretty good description of the experience. Trading cards for cards was a tedious experience. These days, most people trade cards for tix. That's pretty easy to do with a favorite bot chain. Still very tedious to do for/with individual players.

Using the search interface shouldn't be an art form.
There's a reason virtually every economy for the last four millennia has developed a currency. Bartering cards is a terrible, inefficient, soul-sucking process for reasons that have nothing to do with poor search functionality.

Now, bots aren't necessary to have a currency, but because MTGO's currency is not divisible into fine enough values, they provide extra discrimination in prices. Even an auction house isn't going to solve that problem. Only the advent of fractional tickets (preferably with an auction house) will replace this service bots provide. Some will argue that WotC will not implement fractional tickets because of legal concerns over gambling (even I had that view at one point), but as time goes on I become less and less convinced this is a valid legal concern.

Right now, bots provide a valuable service. The biggest one is the tracking of fractional tickets, but because they are generally run by big dealers, they also have large inventory and can deal with cards that have values too small for most people to bother. They are the department store in comparison to individual player's yard sale. An auction house without fractional tickets might upgrade players to a flea market. Only fractional tickets will upgrade the whole thing to a stock exchange. Even then, bots will probably survive, but their roles will change.

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


Show
Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
There's a reason virtually every economy for the last four millennia has developed a currency. Bartering cards is a terrible, inefficient, soul-sucking process for reasons that have nothing to do with poor search functionality.

Now, bots aren't necessary to have a currency, but because MTGO's currency is not divisible into fine enough values, they provide extra discrimination in prices. Even an auction house isn't going to solve that problem. Only the advent of fractional tickets (preferably with an auction house) will replace this service bots provide. Some will argue that WotC will not implement fractional tickets because of legal concerns over gambling (even I had that view at one point), but as time goes on I become less and less convinced this is a valid legal concern.

Right now, bots provide a valuable service. The biggest one is the tracking of fractional tickets, but because they are generally run by big dealers, they also have large inventory and can deal with cards that have values too small for most people to bother. They are the department store in comparison to individual player's yard sale. An auction house without fractional tickets might upgrade players to a flea market. Only fractional tickets will upgrade the whole thing to a stock exchange. Even then, bots will probably survive, but their roles will change.



Lets not forget they also act as clearing houses. Without that functionality much of this discussion would be moot since rares like Rumblehulk would be 4 for a ticket.

Winter.Wolf (ugh at this new forum with the ridiculous double login)

What should i answer to this?!?

We don't need bots, we need developers that provide proper funcionality.
Its not like an AH or something similar is Rocket Sience.

Bots only Rip of players BECAUSE the trading system is terrible.

Like the fractional tickets thing.
Thats so easy to implement, i'm not even sure why anyone would bring this up in this discussion.
The problem are the ridiculus gambling laws ...

Bots are a necessary evil at best, but nothing to be thankful for
What should i answer to this?!?

We don't need bots, we need developers that provide proper funcionality.
Its not like an AH or something similar is Rocket Sience.

Bots only Rip of players BECAUSE the trading system is terrible.

Like the fractional tickets thing.
Thats so easy to implement, i'm not even sure why anyone would bring this up in this discussion.
The problem are the ridiculus gambling laws ...

Bots are a necessary evil at best, but nothing to be thankful for



While I agree there are some bots that are a rip off, anyone with common sense avoids them. Unfortunately that does leave a great many who get ripped off. But "Caveat Emptor" as they say.

As far as how hard it might be to set up an auction function (lets not even label it) that would be acceptable as a replacement for the bots that most people use for fair commerce nowadays goes, well lets just say "why reinvent the wheel?" is probably a main motivator for not doing it.

If you feel the system is broken by all means keep finding suggestions to fix it but don't expect everyone to agree with your assumptions just because you state them emotionally and with vigor. "Evil" and "rip off" sound great as accusations, particularly when one is angry about being unable to get what they want. But do they really match the reality?

I would personally love to be able to trade the way I used to when no one had any idea what was going on nationally and we were all just swimming around in the dark. (This was way before magic online.) However nowadays information highway charged data keeps us informed up to the minute (or second sometimes) of important changes in what is hot/not.

Card prices are finely tuned and rise and fall rather rapidly at intervals surrounding major tournaments and events nowadays. So it is fairly unlikely to ever again make a series of trades where after a few years starting with just standard rares, I end up with half a beta set. Just very unlikely in paper and of course impossible for any similar feat online. That isn't to say you can't find value but the margins are so tight.

I am not convinced an auction house functionality, even one where someone wasn't taking a tithe  of the value of each trade, would be more efficient or easier. In fact I am imagining to cover the cost of such an addition we would probably ending losing 10% off the top (speaking of rip offs) to the house.

Personally, whenever I think of how annoying it is to trade with people who haven't a clue I am very thankful that bots exist now. When I was first building up my post-beta collection online it was very much unfun to trade for cards. It isn't a picnic now but it was much worse and more time consuming by far then.

I don't even want to get into the madhouse that was "/join trading" back then. Yeah I am thankful for bots.

Winter.Wolf (ugh at this new forum with the ridiculous double login)

you realize that a bot is just a piece of code that imitates a human operating the client right?
so an auction house would be basically just an official bot that everyone can use.
And its NOT for free, since we pay for the playing the game.

But apprently people are happy with the current situation.
Given Wotcs general tactic in regards to mtgo that will mean we are stuck with bots forever.

Oh and it could be worse is the worst argument possible .... yeah it could be also sooooo much better without to much effort.
I agree that there is a strong need for an auction house.  I hope WOTC listen to this feedback and support us on this one.
I disagree that there is a need for an AH and hope WOTC puts the time and resources into something much more useful. Like 2HG Limited/Constructed tournaments or giving us the collection binder back.
I disagree that there is a need for an AH and hope WOTC puts the time and resources into something much more useful. Like 2HG Limited/Constructed tournaments or giving us the collection binder back.



This gave me a good laugh thanks.
Functionality that is not necessary or only interets a small group of players is obviously more important than something everyon benefits from.
I would be thrilled if trading had the simple function of old.  Buy or Sell or both columns.  I think it is hard to find someone who has the single card that you want to buy.  Simply sorting between buy, sell or both and then entering a card name would greatly aid finding what you want to do.
Bots would never die.
They would still buy bulks that aren't worth people's time.

============

However, on another serious note:
When are wizards going to let players "redeem" commons and uncommons into tickets..??

I mean: For every redeemed set, how many thousand jank (un)commons get left behind??
112 packs to get all the mythics in the innistrad set.

1 110 commons after 127 commons have been added to the 16 mythics.
269 uncommons after 67 commons have been added to the 1 110 commons and 16 mythics
53 rares left over after 59 rares have been added to the 1 110 commons, 16 mythics and  269 uncommons.

Assuming that 10% of the commons, 15% of the uncommons and 25% of the rares actually see use:

That's 999 utterly useless commons, 228 utterly useless uncommons and 44 useless rares for each redeemed set.

For every full set of an innistrad print (16 mythics), theres literally over 1250 cards nobody will use, ever.

Every card needs it's unique ID...

...

There must be a like, at least 100 000 000 cards of absolutely no value to anyone online RIGHT NOW -- cluttering up the servers! 
However, on another serious note:
When are wizards going to let players "redeem" commons and uncommons into tickets..??


The same day they let you trade in paper commons for cash.

Magic and Magic Online Volunteer Community Lead. On Strike

I'm trying to make my official VCL posts in purple.

You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


Show
Unfortunately, VCLs do not currently have the tools necessary to take moderation actions directly. VCLs submit their actions to ORCs, who then actually perform the action. This processing can take between a few minutes and several hours, depending on how busy/attentive the ORCs are.

If you see something that needs VCL attention, please use this thread to make a request and a VCL will look at it as soon as possible. CoC violations should be reported to Customer Service using the "report post" button. Please do not disrupt the thread by making requests of either kind in-thread.

General MTGO FAQ

Yes, the Shuffler is Random!
The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

Magic Math Made Easy
Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

Event EV Calculator
Calculate the EV for any event with a fixed number of rounds and prizes based on record

Dual means two. A duel is a battle between two people. Lands that make two colors of mana are dual lands. A normal Magic battle is a duel.
Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!
Quotables

Show
"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
Every card needs it's unique ID...
There must be a like, at least 100 000 000 cards of absolutely no value to anyone online RIGHT NOW -- cluttering up the servers! 

I believe they changed the architecture so that every individual card no longer has a unique ID. Given this, I don't think there's any difference in clutter if I have 10 M13 Islands or 1000.
However, on another serious note:
When are wizards going to let players "redeem" commons and uncommons into tickets..??


The same day they let you trade in paper commons for cash.



I didn't realize Wizards had free storage for all my physical cards, having employees watch over them and moving them around for me and bringing my entire collection to the counter every time I want to play with a 60 card deck, renting a building specifically for that use.

If they did -- I would wonder why they did not offer to burn the 2000 cards I never use just to free up space and resources and offer me a fraction of the cost associated with their storage and handling of my cards, by offering a promo that doesn't cost them anything compared to the storage and that doesn't change the game.

=======

10 000 cards 'burned' --> 1 promo booster.

2000 cards burned --> 1 foil promo card
1000 cards burned --> 1 promo card

How can 100 000 000 junk cards stored on their servers NOT be something Wizards wants to get rid of for virtually no cost?
However, on another serious note:
When are wizards going to let players "redeem" commons and uncommons into tickets..??


The same day they let you trade in paper commons for cash.



I didn't realize Wizards had free storage for all my physical cards, having employees watch over them and moving them around for me and bringing my entire collection to the counter every time I want to play with a 60 card deck, renting a building specifically for that use.

If they did -- I would wonder why they did not offer to burn the 2000 cards I never use just to free up space and resources and offer me a fraction of the cost associated with their storage and handling of my cards, by offering a promo that doesn't cost them anything compared to the storage and that doesn't change the game.

=======

10 000 cards 'burned' --> 1 promo booster.

2000 cards burned --> 1 foil promo card
1000 cards burned --> 1 promo card

How can 100 000 000 junk cards stored on their servers NOT be something Wizards wants to get rid of for virtually no cost?



No cost? Do you KNOW how many lambs must be slaughtered to provide one booster for EWE???

Winter.Wolf (ugh at this new forum with the ridiculous double login)

Because such services DO have cost. Its really awesome that you think that setting up a "trash collection" is super simple BUT Ooops I burned my goyf. No, I actually didnt, the software bug did, WOTC owes me. ETC ETC never ending series of CS problems relating to that. Even if the person DID burn their goyf, they will NEVER admit to it. Same thing for auction house and putting it at 75 cents instead of 75 tickets. And given WOTC's record with software dev, I am suprised ANYONE wants them to unilaterally have the ability to trade your stuff while you arent around to pay attention. 

Also, not sure when the last time you saw what storage costs are like, they are basically nonexistent. a TB of space for 60 bucks likely holds 10k accounts worth of cards or better. The database is literally

Account ID:####,CardID ####, Quantity####

Takes a LOT of that to make a meaningful impact on storage costs.

As for a auction house. Without fractionals they are worthless largely, with fractionals they are probably similar to what we have right now.

There are a lot of things people miss relating to offline trading. Server use being one when you consider there are 100+k accounts on here. The second big one is, you think "hoarding" and speculating are a problem now. At least right now when a card pops probably half or more of the copies in existence that are for trade are logged off and able to temper the price. When they are not, and someone can take 80+% of the liquidity out of the market for a few k, gl.

As for "bots will always buy bulk", I take it you dont own or understand bots at all. I sell my bulk commons at .009 pay .003 on standard commons, and I buy them ten to one on sell. The ONLY use for them is redemption. I am not even a bulk bot, they are just that worthless :/ I can assure you its not worth the cost to keep my computers turned on to only deal bulk. So no, your wrong.

The other thing to realize is, auction house while providing a feature(cutting out the middle man), it also has serious problems such as you cannot instantly get out of a item. If you want to, you have to price low enough that you reintroduce a middle man, and you are right back financially to where you are right now. In the end, for the majority of players a auction house might actually be a downgrade from the current system which values time over money. Which is something WOTC likes its player base to do, otherwise we would all play games that dont cost 5+ an hour(draft) to play.
Also, not sure when the last time you saw what storage costs are like, they are basically nonexistent. a TB of space for 60 bucks likely holds 10k accounts worth of cards or better. The database is literally

Account ID:####,CardID ####, Quantity####

Takes a LOT of that to make a meaningful impact on storage costs.

The results of the card shredder would simply decrement the Quantity value. It doesn't save Wizards any money if this changes from 99,999 to 4. Not arguing with Zigler's post, just quoting a good description of the data structures involved.
... And given WOTC's record with software dev, I am suprised ANYONE wants them to unilaterally have the ability to trade your stuff while you arent around to pay attention. ...

This. This. A thousand times this.

While WotC is wonderful with MTG, hands down, no agrument... for code I don't trust them with a burnt out match. Speaking of burnt out matches, I wonder how many people lost matches this past week due to their last fix? (The one that caused "burn to exile" spells to just "burn") We'll see what the "fix for the fix" brings come Wednesday.

BUT... 

I don't know how much code input WotC has in coding the new client. Since an actual software developer is doing the work, including any "auction house" (or whatever), I might be less leery.

I do not wish to participate in this Community Site.

Step A.

1: Separate strictly between buying and selling classifieds.

2: Have the ads contain actual cards and products, with a "price" -- not a description in words.
Let the players have some 16 individual cards advertised for sale, with their prices.


==========

Step B:
1: Use the trade template, and let players trade with no reciever for a specific amount of tickets.
40 tickets means that the first person to pay 40 tickets in that tradescreen gets the product.

2: After X hours, (24 or 48) cancel the trade and return the card to it's owner. 

You now have AFK trade for human players.

================================================================

Step C:
1: Allow players to upload bulks of items to the recieverless trade.
Allow others to see that collection.
Allow the seller to set two prices: 1: Buy price 2: Minimum
Allow the buyer to set one price: X tickets (Putting up too few tickets will result in the message "Too few tickets")
All three prices will be available to other players.

2: Minimum will be grayed out as default, has to be activated in the menu and has the warning when activated: "Wizards blah blah blah, not liable if you screw up blah blah blah blah blah, make sure you only use the minimum price function if are willing to sell items for that price."
ACCEPT | DECLINE
Accepting will enable you to create auctions.

3: Auctions have one two or three prices: Buy price (optional for as long as minimum is activated), minimum (default: 0) and current bid.
Current bid price for players = Previous bid +1.

That is how I would've done it anyway, starting with enchanced trading (Step A), modified that into AFK trading (Step B) and then collection and auction trading (Step C)

It should be easier to just hack an account and transfer the cards than it would be to hack an auction or trade.
... And given WOTC's record with software dev, I am suprised ANYONE wants them to unilaterally have the ability to trade your stuff while you arent around to pay attention. ...

This. This. A thousand times this.

While WotC is wonderful with MTG, hands down, no agrument... for code I don't trust them with a burnt out match. Speaking of burnt out matches, I wonder how many people lost matches this past week due to their last fix? (The one that caused "burn to exile" spells to just "burn") We'll see what the "fix for the fix" brings come Wednesday.

BUT... 

I don't know how much code input WotC has in coding the new client. Since an actual software developer is doing the work, including any "auction house" (or whatever), I might be less leery.




Actually my understanding from WOTC is they just got the "shell" of the client from the software Dev, they are doing ALL the current work... which explains the pace :P


Also, not sure when the last time you saw what storage costs are like, they are basically nonexistent. a TB of space for 60 bucks likely holds 10k accounts worth of cards or better. The database is literally

Account ID:####,CardID ####, Quantity####

Takes a LOT of that to make a meaningful impact on storage costs.

The results of the card shredder would simply decrement the Quantity value. It doesn't save Wizards any money if this changes from 99,999 to 4. Not arguing with Zigler's post, just quoting a good description of the data structures involved.



Yeah that was my point rly. Also because of how data structures work going from 9999999 to 4 does NOTHING to your storage requirements, at least as I semi understand data structures. 

Sign In to post comments