change in dnd

how much change should be allowed before the game of dnd is so altered it no longer looks like dnd?
this is not an edition war because even with changes over time the game still has similarities. here are some things that should not change in my opinion:

xp: this has been part of every edition. and has been changed from xp tables for diffrent races/classes to a universal xp table for all classes. to just level a party after x sessions will still leave players behind if they miss a game so why change it. if a character misses a combat if he is off doing his own thing why should he benefit from the rest of the group risking their lives

hit points: again part of every edition. wether you heal from moral boosts or from clerical magic they are part of dnd. it is confusing that since hp represent stamina and physical injury there are no rules on how much of a weapon deals damage vs bruising ect.  that can be addressed without removing it from the game

if anyone has other items to add i am fine with seeing others opinions on them. i dont want the game to change so far that it becomes alien to what made it great...."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />

Nobody is saying that the devs will remove xp from core or turn the core hp mechanic into one that more accurately models injuries.  I don't even think anyone is proposing such changes be made to the core mechanics.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Apparently I'm not playing D&D, I haven't bothered tracking XP for a while. We just level when everyone feels like it.
"So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been." - Manwë, High King of the Valar
The game doesn't change, people's perceptions of it change.

When you first learn the game, you don't know the rules. Now you're an experienced player and know what to change.

No xp? No HP? No problem. It's still D&D. Consider this, I've got a friend that many, many years ago ran a Forgotten Realms game using the GURPS ruleset. Forgotten Realms is very much a D&D setting. So, it can be done and still be D&D.
Show
Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity.... In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
you are playing dnd, my point is that if you remove xp from the game as a core rule then its not dnd. if you modify it as a home rule to meet the needs of your group that is playing dnd.
AC: an oldie but goodie. Its counterpart, THAC0/BAB/whatever seems to change names each edition, but the core mechanic of rolling a d20 to see if you beat a static difficulty in order to deal damage in combat remains in place.

Saving Throws: After a brief retirement in 4e, rollings saves vs. spells is back.  It's an interesting juxtaposition with AC, and it promotes the idea that when a wizard casts a spell, you're not defending against him; you're scrambling to avoid the forces of nature he's unleashed.

Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, etc.: Though they may have changed slightly through the editions, the most core of the nonhuman races continue to serve their traditional roles. At their best, these races provide interesting new viewpoints and possibilities to build a character or a world from; at their worst, they're just a collection of stereotypes and bad accents. As always, it's up to us to make them good.

Weapon Details: One of the pages I look forward to the most in each edition of D&D is the big, multi-page spread of lovingly detailed weapons and armor. (That is, when they don't horribly screw them up like the 3e rapier.)  I don't care that some of these weapons are misnamed or unrealistic or never existed; it's cool to have this big an armory to dig through. I also like that each weapon has its own attributes, advantages and disadvantages, and hope they continue to expand those differences in Next.

Spells: Love them or hate them (and there's an active thread now from the latter camp), spells with discrete levels and very specific effects are a part of D&D. This spell system, whether it's expressed in Vancian spell slots or 4e-style AEDU powers, gives spellcasters very concrete parameters for their magic, which at best can serve as a great stepping-stone for creative uses of those spells.
you are playing dnd, my point is that if you remove xp from the game as a core rule then its not dnd. if you modify it as a home rule to meet the needs of your group that is playing dnd.



When has anyone said that hp and xp need to be removed?
you are playing dnd, my point is that if you remove xp from the game as a core rule then its not dnd. if you modify it as a home rule to meet the needs of your group that is playing dnd.



When has anyone said that hp and xp need to be removed?




i see alot of threads talking about it. wether it happens or not is one thing i just think it wont improve the game at all to remove them.
Saving Throws: After a brief retirement in 4e, rollings saves vs. spells is back.  It's an interesting juxtaposition with AC, and it promotes the idea that when a wizard casts a spell, you're not defending against him; you're scrambling to avoid the forces of nature he's unleashed.


Saving throws were actually in D&D 4e in 2 forms.
1) saves against ongoing/degenerative effects,
and
2) in the powers.  All they did was move the roll from the person being affected to the person doing the affecting.  It's literally the same thing as 3e's saves with just a change in who rolls and who gets the static number.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

how much change should be allowed before the game of dnd is so altered it no longer looks like dnd?
this is not an edition war because even with changes over time the game still has similarities. here are some things that should not change in my opinion:

xp: this has been part of every edition. and has been changed from xp tables for diffrent races/classes to a universal xp table for all classes. to just level a party after x sessions will still leave players behind if they miss a game so why change it. if a character misses a combat if he is off doing his own thing why should he benefit from the rest of the group risking their lives

hit points: again part of every edition. wether you heal from moral boosts or from clerical magic they are part of dnd. it is confusing that since hp represent stamina and physical injury there are no rules on how much of a weapon deals damage vs bruising ect.  that can be addressed without removing it from the game

if anyone has other items to add i am fine with seeing others opinions on them. i dont want the game to change so far that it becomes alien to what made it great...."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />




a big one missing from your list is levels.
how much change should be allowed before the game of dnd is so altered it no longer looks like dnd?
this is not an edition war because even with changes over time the game still has similarities. here are some things that should not change in my opinion:

xp: this has been part of every edition. and has been changed from xp tables for diffrent races/classes to a universal xp table for all classes. to just level a party after x sessions will still leave players behind if they miss a game so why change it. if a character misses a combat if he is off doing his own thing why should he benefit from the rest of the group risking their lives

hit points: again part of every edition. wether you heal from moral boosts or from clerical magic they are part of dnd. it is confusing that since hp represent stamina and physical injury there are no rules on how much of a weapon deals damage vs bruising ect.  that can be addressed without removing it from the game

if anyone has other items to add i am fine with seeing others opinions on them. i dont want the game to change so far that it becomes alien to what made it great...."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />




a big one missing from your list is levels.




yes i agree on that levels are part of every edition and levelless games are fun to play but tend to be build around huge skill lists like call of cuthlu
you are playing dnd, my point is that if you remove xp from the game as a core rule then its not dnd. if you modify it as a home rule to meet the needs of your group that is playing dnd.



When has anyone said that hp and xp need to be removed?




i see alot of threads talking about it. wether it happens or not is one thing i just think it wont improve the game at all to remove them.



No one has talked about removing hp. Care to quote someone saying that?

As far as xp goes, I've only seen it mentioned that there should be guidelines on running a game without it. It does make it easier on a lot of groups. Mine included. 
There is no single element that defines the game as D&D. It is purely a matter of how far you can wander before people no longer perceive the game as D&D, and that point won't be the same for different people. There are some people who think D&D 4e doesn't qualify as D&D because the mechanics are too fundamentally different from previous editions.

To add to the list of things that make it D&D, D20 based mechanics has to go in there also.

Consider this, I've got a friend that many, many years ago ran a Forgotten Realms game using the GURPS ruleset. Forgotten Realms is very much a D&D setting. So, it can be done and still be D&D.

I would argue the other way around. That isn't D&D any more, that is GURPS played in a D&D setting. D&D is the ruleset not the campaign setting. I've played a lot of fantasy games with other rule sets, just having dungeons and dragons in the game doesn't make it D&D. They play and feel very different.

Saving Throws: After a brief retirement in 4e, rollings saves vs. spells is back.  It's an interesting juxtaposition with AC, and it promotes the idea that when a wizard casts a spell, you're not defending against him; you're scrambling to avoid the forces of nature he's unleashed.


Saving throws were actually in D&D 4e in 2 forms.
1) saves against ongoing/degenerative effects,
and
2) in the powers.  All they did was move the roll from the person being affected to the person doing the affecting.  It's literally the same thing as 3e's saves with just a change in who rolls and who gets the static number.



Yeah, sorry to be inaccurate for the sake of brevity. What 4e called "saving throws" are clearly a separate mechanic from pre-4e and Next saving throws, and I wish they'd stop recycling the same names for different abilities. (Uncanny Dodge, I'm looking at you!) And switching the roll to the spellcaster in 4e doesn't make a difference mathematically, but IMHO it does change the feel of the game a bit.
you are playing dnd, my point is that if you remove xp from the game as a core rule then its not dnd. if you modify it as a home rule to meet the needs of your group that is playing dnd.



When has anyone said that hp and xp need to be removed?




i see alot of threads talking about it. wether it happens or not is one thing i just think it wont improve the game at all to remove them.



No one has talked about removing hp. Care to quote someone saying that?

As far as xp goes, I've only seen it mentioned that there should be guidelines on running a game without it. It does make it easier on a lot of groups. Mine included. 




many want to replace hp with some kind of stamina system since the way healing works with resting and getting large amounts of hps back is confusing to me. there has never been a good system in place to show how much combat damage is real physical and bruising, fatigue ect. and i think that is where the problem is. if they said the first half of hps was fatigue and once you go past that then your in the physical damage and they could still have mechanics for hps at 0 or below. then i would support second wind and other 4th edition mechanics more

Saving Throws: After a brief retirement in 4e, rollings saves vs. spells is back.  It's an interesting juxtaposition with AC, and it promotes the idea that when a wizard casts a spell, you're not defending against him; you're scrambling to avoid the forces of nature he's unleashed.


Saving throws were actually in D&D 4e in 2 forms.
1) saves against ongoing/degenerative effects,
and
2) in the powers.  All they did was move the roll from the person being affected to the person doing the affecting.  It's literally the same thing as 3e's saves with just a change in who rolls and who gets the static number.



Yeah, sorry to be inaccurate for the sake of brevity. What 4e called "saving throws" are clearly a separate mechanic from pre-4e and Next saving throws, and I wish they'd stop recycling the same names for different abilities. (Uncanny Dodge, I'm looking at you!) And switching the roll to the spellcaster in 4e doesn't make a difference mathematically, but IMHO it does change the feel of the game a bit.


I can't argue that it changes the feel (for good or ill depends on one's personal preference), but the 3e books themselves even mention options for switching who rolls or even changing a roll against static to opposed rolls (one sidebar mentions that you can assume 10 on attack rolls and actually roll AC, or that you can roll for both).  It's the same mechanic plus an option.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

many want to replace hp with some kind of stamina system since the way healing works with resting and getting large amounts of hps back is confusing to me. there has never been a good system in place to show how much combat damage is real physical and bruising, fatigue ect. and i think that is where the problem is. if they said the first half of hps was fatigue and once you go past that then your in the physical damage and they could still have mechanics for hps at 0 or below. then i would support second wind and other 4th edition mechanics more


Check out this L&L article.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

ok that explains things a bit i just think they should reword the use of hit dice but i can homerule changes like that
ok that explains things a bit i just think they should reword the use of hit dice but i can homerule changes like that


Yeah, opting to use Hit Dice when the term Healing Surge already existed, and wouldn't overlap with a term fans of early editions knew under another meaning, was a bad call.  Even if one doesn't like healing surges and their implementation in 4e, it still makes a better name for DDN's mechanic than Hit Dice.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I've leveled characters when it makes narrative sense for three editions now.

Guess that's not D&D.

And I've run wound and critical systems before.

Guess that wasn't D&D either.

How can optional rules for the Advanced game possibly make Next "not D&D"?       
Class-based

Level-based

 Fantasy-based

 Has the name/logo Dungeons and Dragons on the cover of the book

About all I need for it to be D&D.
   
   
 
   
I've leveled characters when it makes narrative sense for three editions now.

Guess that's not D&D.

And I've run wound and critical systems before.

Guess that wasn't D&D either.

How can optional rules for the Advanced game possibly make Next "not D&D"?       




oh so you kindly deleted and then reworded your previous post to make you look like less of a troll i applaud you for that. my point is that the core rules should have hps and xps in them and then if you use another system homerule it. then it will still be dnd.
I've leveled characters when it makes narrative sense for three editions now.

Guess that's not D&D.

And I've run wound and critical systems before.

Guess that wasn't D&D either.

How can optional rules for the Advanced game possibly make Next "not D&D"?       




oh so you kindly deleted and then reworded your previous post to make you look like less of a troll i applaud you for that. my point is that the core rules should have hps and xps in them and then if you use another system homerule it. then it will still be dnd.



There's nothing wrong with them presenting modules with guidelines on how to handle this kind of thing. Something that has been play-tested. Going without xp is something that seems to be quite popular. What harm could possibly be done if it is presented as an option next to the xp tables?
an option is good i just dont want it becoming the rule that was my point
I've leveled characters when it makes narrative sense for three editions now.

Guess that's not D&D.

And I've run wound and critical systems before.

Guess that wasn't D&D either.

How can optional rules for the Advanced game possibly make Next "not D&D"?       




oh so you kindly deleted and then reworded your previous post to make you look like less of a troll i applaud you for that. my point is that the core rules should have hps and xps in them and then if you use another system homerule it. then it will still be dnd.



This is my first post on this thread.

And it's unedited.

Not sure who you are talking to?

So you don't want there to be Advanced modules for these things?

People who want to use them MUST houserule or it's not D&D?

...

I'm glad Next is for people like me and NOT for people like you.

Thankyou development team.           
I've leveled characters when it makes narrative sense for three editions now.

Guess that's not D&D.

And I've run wound and critical systems before.

Guess that wasn't D&D either.

How can optional rules for the Advanced game possibly make Next "not D&D"?       




oh so you kindly deleted and then reworded your previous post to make you look like less of a troll i applaud you for that. my point is that the core rules should have hps and xps in them and then if you use another system homerule it. then it will still be dnd.



This is my first post on this thread.

And it's unedited.

Not sure who you are talking to?

So you don't want there to be Advanced modules for these things?

People who want to use them MUST houserule or it's not D&D?

...

I'm glad Next is for people like me and NOT for people like you.

Thankyou development team.           




oh because when i created this thread for about 60 seconds a post under your name was made on my thread and then removed so you can act like nothing happened but some people can read lol
an option is good i just dont want it becoming the rule that was my point



That would never happen. Nor has anyone suggested it happen.
They should change however much needs to be changed to do a good job.
Let's keep the personal accusations down, and the discussion civil, please.
Howdy folks,

This thread is headed down the dark rabbit hole of edition warring and will thus be closed.

Thanks.  

All around helpful simian

Sign In to post comments