Guild Economic Discussion Thread

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Shamelessly stolen from MTGS flavor forums because they can't have a quality discussion there.

For the guilds to exist and function, they require members and in most cases workers. While these workers may be devoted to the cause, they do require at the very least food, clothing and shelter. It is hard to work and fight for a cause if you are starving. Feeding, clothing and equpping thousands of guild members is not cheap. Let's take a look if the guilds are in any way plausible.


Orzhov is easy. The entire guild exists for the purpose of gathering wealth. Also, it helps that a large portion of the workers are either dead and/or working off some humongous debt.


Golgari seem at the very least plausible. They perform services for the community, which must render some income. Especially when the raw materials for their wares are either free or possibly even garner an income themselves. Half the work force consisting of insects, fungi and zombies tends to help the cost structure.


Dimir  can charge a lot for their services. Assassination and theft of otherwise unattainable items or information does not come cheap, even on Ravnica. Blackmail using said information also tends to be lucrative. Still, a bit of stretch as they do operate in a niche market.


Gruul clans don't really have a need for money. As long as each clan hunts or otherwise feeds itself, and occasionally does a raid for other supplies everyone is content.


Rakdos are similar to Gruul in that there isn't really a centralized structure of employment, nor are the members concerned with long term savings. There will always be some business venture of dubious legality to gain some money, or someone will rob a butcher or market stall for rations.


Selesnya is also a cult, which is helpful from a budgetary perspective as the members are not really interested in personal gain. Selesnyans may be growing all the food they need. In fact they may be growing shelter too.


Izzet does provide services for the city and for the other guilds. It seems that this income is not big enough to fund both the maintenance of said services and whatever schemes and research Niv-Mizzet has the scientists working on. I'd say plausible, but only barely.


Simic seems fishy, if you excuse the pun. There isn't really a market for shamblesharks and frog crocodiles. Even if there might be some income from tourism and baths, this hardly seems enough to pay for useless experiments.


Azorius is an unlikely proposition. Running a huge bureaucracy with all sorts of scribes, clerks and magistrates is not cheap. There might be a variety of fines, fees and levies, but even with a large scoop of bribes it seems to me like Azorius is impossible. Unless there is some city-wide system of taxation for the funding of the guild, of course.


Boros seems dubious. Having a large standing army is awfully expensive. Not only does it have to be fed, but weaponry and armor is really expensive. Boros has no discernible way of earning money. Of course, Orzhov might want to temporarily hire a battalion to keep Gruul at bay, but it is kind of hard to be champions of justice if someone else is paying all the bills.

Lets hear it fellow armchair economists. Discuss away.

"The fuel on which science runs is ignorance. Science is like a hungry furnace that must be fed logs from the forests of ignorance that surround us. In the process, the clearing we call knowledge expands, but the more it expands, the longer its perimeter and the more ignorance comes into view." -Matt Ridley, Genome

Why we need never fear for this forum:

Shamelessly stolen from MTGS flavor forums because they can't have a quality discussion there.



I'll go over the ones you haven't already nailed.

The Golgari are farmers and, um, 'waste collection specialists'. They get paid to continue doing what they're supposed to do, which is often things no one else will touch.

Besides maintaining infrastructure, the Izzet also get commissioned to do this or that. Most recently, The Warmind Initiative.

The Simic are also Ravnica's doctors.

The Dimir also hold sway over a lot of Ravnica's not-totes-sketchy information. Libraries, newspapers, etc.

The Rakdos are also legitimate forms of entertainment, not just snuff houses and the like. They also provide a lot of Ravnica's manual labor. Heavy lifting, mining, etc.
The last Unchartered Realms at the very least confirmed taxation by the Azorious (and I'm just gonna guess that it is pretty planewide and systematic). I don't doubt them overly much

Boros... yeah... no idea how that works.
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
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57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
not-totes-sketchy



If you ever speak like this again I will cause you suffering in a way that will make you beg for Barinellos to harm you instead. 

"The fuel on which science runs is ignorance. Science is like a hungry furnace that must be fed logs from the forests of ignorance that surround us. In the process, the clearing we call knowledge expands, but the more it expands, the longer its perimeter and the more ignorance comes into view." -Matt Ridley, Genome

Do they still rent themselves out as mercs, or did that stop when Aurelia took control?
not-totes-sketchy



If you ever speak like this again I will cause you suffering in a way that will make you beg for Barinellos to harm you instead. 


Remind me never to use a tote bag around you.
The Simic are also Ravnica's doctors.


I still need to read Experiment One, but is that actually still applicable?
In actuality, it seems like theya re strangely getting more money these days from Tourists come to see the Zonots.

Do they still rent themselves out as mercs, or did that stop when Aurelia took control?



Aurelia probably put a stop to that. Any of the Boros who went merc joined the Cloud Winged Guard, which Brady confirms as still being a thing.


Furthermore, an advanced Krasis could easily be sold at a serious premium as a guard animal, beast of burden, or potentially even a mount (see: Drakewing Krasis)

the Azorious and to a lesser extent the Boros are also the government, and probably supported by tax... at least the Azorious.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

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THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920



Furthermore, an advanced Krasis could easily be sold at a serious premium as a guard animal, beast of burden, or potentially even a mount (see: Drakewing Krasis)

the Azorious and to a lesser extent the Boros are also the government, and probably supported by tax... at least the Azorious.



I wonder, do we know anything about tax structure on Rav? I doubt it but it could be really interesting to discuss.

How about insurance policies? 

"The fuel on which science runs is ignorance. Science is like a hungry furnace that must be fed logs from the forests of ignorance that surround us. In the process, the clearing we call knowledge expands, but the more it expands, the longer its perimeter and the more ignorance comes into view." -Matt Ridley, Genome

Furthermore, an advanced Krasis could easily be sold at a serious premium as a guard animal, beast of burden, or potentially even a mount (see: Drakewing Krasis)



You forgot the possibility of being delicious.

How about insurance policies? 


Those were handled by the Orzhov, at least in so far as the previous block was concerned.
Furthermore, an advanced Krasis could easily be sold at a serious premium as a guard animal, beast of burden, or potentially even a mount (see: Drakewing Krasis)



You forgot the possibility of being delicious.



The culinary potential of the Simic guild is limitless.

"The fuel on which science runs is ignorance. Science is like a hungry furnace that must be fed logs from the forests of ignorance that surround us. In the process, the clearing we call knowledge expands, but the more it expands, the longer its perimeter and the more ignorance comes into view." -Matt Ridley, Genome

Furthermore, an advanced Krasis could easily be sold at a serious premium as a guard animal, beast of burden, or potentially even a mount (see: Drakewing Krasis)



You forgot the possibility of being delicious.



The culinary potential of the Simic guild is limitless.


True... I had assumed that most Krasis would be too difficult/expensive to raise solely for food, but once you have the production process down, you can at least serve high-class demand.  And they do keep adding frog/toad into their designs... perhaps so it will regularly lay tons of eggs ready to be harvested?

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

A M:tG/D&D message board with a good community and usable software

 


THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

True... I had assumed that most Krasis would be too difficult/expensive to raise solely for food, but once you have the production process down, you can at least serve high-class demand.  And they do keep adding frog/toad into their designs... perhaps so it will regularly lay tons of eggs ready to be harvested?



I think Borborygmos put it best on Protean Hulk.
Furthermore, an advanced Krasis could easily be sold at a serious premium as a guard animal, beast of burden, or potentially even a mount (see: Drakewing Krasis)



You forgot the possibility of being delicious.



The culinary potential of the Simic guild is limitless.


True... I had assumed that most Krasis would be too difficult/expensive to raise solely for food, but once you have the production process down, you can at least serve high-class demand.  And they do keep adding frog/toad into their designs... perhaps so it will regularly lay tons of eggs ready to be harvested?



Have you ever seen The Freshman? Eating exotic animals will always be profitable.

"The fuel on which science runs is ignorance. Science is like a hungry furnace that must be fed logs from the forests of ignorance that surround us. In the process, the clearing we call knowledge expands, but the more it expands, the longer its perimeter and the more ignorance comes into view." -Matt Ridley, Genome

Whelp, add the Rakdos/Simic culinary co-op/high class resteraunt to my head cannon list of characters  that exist but have yet to be written.
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
\
57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
Rakdos:  I read some flavor article a while back (I don't remember where) that said that the Rakdos perform assassinations for other guilds.  Similarly, in the "massacre girl" article arc, she's described as a leader of a band of mercenaries.  It's possible that the Rakdos kill people for money.  They probably also get some income from killing people and then taking their stuff.

Simic:  simic signet seems to suggest that they're something like the Ravnica version of Whole Foods.  Although I personally wouldn't buy Simic products, because they would probably taste faintly of toad.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
Rakdos have a traveling circus, plus they are hired thugs for the other guilds. I don't see them being better at spying or assassination then Dimir though 
Rakdos have a traveling circus, plus they are hired thugs for the other guilds. I don't see them being better at spying or assassination then Dimir though 



Well, spying is definitely not in their forte, but they are quite adept at assassination so long as you don't mind the extra victims.
Which they do pro bono of course.
Rakdos have a traveling circus, plus they are hired thugs for the other guilds. I don't see them being better at spying or assassination then Dimir though 



Well, spying is definitely not in their forte, but they are quite adept at assassination so long as you don't mind the extra victims.
Which they do pro bono of course.


And Massacre Girl is joined by Collateral Damage Man.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

A M:tG/D&D message board with a good community and usable software

 


THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Rakdos have a traveling circus, plus they are hired thugs for the other guilds. I don't see them being better at spying or assassination then Dimir though 



Well, spying is definitely not in their forte, but they are quite adept at assassination so long as you don't mind the extra victims.
Which they do pro bono of course.


And Massacre Girl is joined by Collateral Damage Man.



Along with their faithful pet, Vandalism Dog!

They fight crime.
Rakdos have a traveling circus, plus they are hired thugs for the other guilds. I don't see them being better at spying or assassination then Dimir though 



Well, spying is definitely not in their forte, but they are quite adept at assassination so long as you don't mind the extra victims.
Which they do pro bono of course.


And Massacre Girl is joined by Collateral Damage Man.



Along with their faithful pet, Vandalism Dog!

They fight crime.


I think you mean they commit crimes.

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

Rakdos have a traveling circus, plus they are hired thugs for the other guilds. I don't see them being better at spying or assassination then Dimir though 



Well, spying is definitely not in their forte, but they are quite adept at assassination so long as you don't mind the extra victims.
Which they do pro bono of course.


And Massacre Girl is joined by Collateral Damage Man.



Along with their faithful pet, Vandalism Dog!

They fight crime.


I think you mean they commit crimes.


They commit crimes; they fight. They're crime fighters!
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
\
57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!

Wow, that didn't take long to veer off-topic.


I'm also interested in the taxation on Ravnica. Do you get taxed more because you're in a guild? Or do you give part of your income up to the guild you're in? But if you're working for a guild, they probably pay you, so instead of taking a part of your pay, they could just pay you less. 

After the official forums lost most of their functionality, a once vibrant community of Vorthos was wiped out.The survivors founded a new place to discuss all things concerning with the art, flavor and storylines of Magic: The Gathering. Come join us.

Wow, that didn't take long to veer off-topic.


You know the saying. Also you're welcome.
I'm also interested in the taxation on Ravnica. Do you get taxed more because you're in a guild? Or do you give part of your income up to the guild you're in? But if you're working for a guild, they probably pay you, so instead of taking a part of your pay, they could just pay you less. 


Wojek got paid, we know that much.

@42: Boredom is a crime.
For Azorius, it's easy. There are fifty different laws you've broken in the past hour alone. You will be expected to pay hefty fines for each of them.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Azorius definitely rules with taxes, and fines.

Boros, was definied, in one of Jace's Planeswalker novels, during the downfall, as protective services for hire. Perhaps some Ravnicans pay the Orzhov for protection from the Orzhov, and others pay the Boros, for protection from the other guilds. Rakdosm covers the assassinations for hire  half of mercenary work.

Wojek officers recieved a wage, during the Guildpact era. But without the Guildpact, they're not quite so buddy-buddy with the Azorius, and definitely not as close as they used to be, with the Orzhov, therefore they're more than likely not paid upkeep through the old tax system.

It's really weird how Azorius has branched out and become the Judicial system, AND the police/detainment force.

I wouldn't put it past the Azorius to subcontract the policing of difficult areas to the Boros, actually. 


And Azorius has claimed all aspects of a typical government, not just judicial and executive. 

After the official forums lost most of their functionality, a once vibrant community of Vorthos was wiped out.The survivors founded a new place to discuss all things concerning with the art, flavor and storylines of Magic: The Gathering. Come join us.


I wouldn't put it past the Azorius to subcontract the policing of difficult areas to the Boros, actually. 


And Azorius has claimed all aspects of a typical government, not just judicial and executive. 




They appear to actually cover the same areas, with... different levels of authority?
It's hard to deal with this because by moving the Azorius into a proactive role, they've made the Boros extraneous.

It genuinely wasn't one of their better moves in this block.
I got the impression (especially from Angelic Edict) that the Boros are now opposed to the Azorius, and are making progress with the goal of themselves becoming the "legitimate govenrment" of Ravnica, mostly by beating up anybody who says they can't.  They might play nice at the moment and incidentally support the Azorius in some regions and against mutual threats, but their goal is along the lines of "Be Boros, be ruled by the Boros, or be crushed beneath the heel of the Boros"

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

A M:tG/D&D message board with a good community and usable software

 


THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

To that end, it seems more like Boros is run on stick, and rocks. Food's scarce, but the warriors are trying to fight the good fight. Everything's provided by those who support the cause. They've become a rogue element, toward preventing the guilds from becoming too powerful. They've basically excised themself completely from alliances in the process.

Actually, it's becoming increasingly notable that, Izzet, Azorius, Simic, and Orzhov, are the only guilds that actively care about money. The Golgari, and Gruul don't need it. The Boros and Selesnyans are too good for it, Dimir trades in secrets. Rakdos is split between those who want pleasures requiring money, and those who want to just watch the world burn/ traed in blood and favor of Rakdos. 

I wouldn't put it past the Azorius to subcontract the policing of difficult areas to the Boros, actually. 


And Azorius has claimed all aspects of a typical government, not just judicial and executive. 




They appear to actually cover the same areas, with... different levels of authority?
It's hard to deal with this because by moving the Azorius into a proactive role, they've made the Boros extraneous.

It genuinely wasn't one of their better moves in this block.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. I've been trying to figure out just what the "new Boros" is supposed to be this block.

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

They seemed extrainious before. They've got no one to defend Ravnica against, there's no need to be that powerful. Ravnica may regularly be host to giant monsters and riots and other shenanigans, but an army is for killin' dudes. Ravnica doesn't have that many dudes what needs killin'.
They can exist only because the Guildpact once moved events around to keep them funded and needed. I assume it also kept the Azorious so inept to ensure the Boros had a reason to exist.
Boros really didn't feel like they were that important in the first set. I mean Azorius, if you ask me, should have been the police and judge and the jury in the first set. The Boros really don't have a place when they are a huge army, but there is no one for them to fight. Plus I don't want to see the Boros as Mercs either, that isn't really a \ type of feel to me, especially with there fluff. Idk were they belong, but they don't fit to well in a plane that is just one giant city.
Plus I don't want to see the Boros as Mercs either, that isn't really a \ type of feel to me, especially with there fluff.



So being corrupt and greedy is a-okay, but being mercenaries isn't? Recall that, among other things, hypocrisy is inherent to the colour pair, and being greedy while rationalising why it isn't is something that can easily be expected from the Boros.

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/global/images/mtgcom_daily_mc52_picMain_en.jpg)IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/73821e61e013eadf56a8e4e2226d89a3.jpg?v=90000)
Hypocrisy is inherent to the Guild model.
Plus I don't want to see the Boros as Mercs either, that isn't really a \ type of feel to me, especially with there fluff.



So being corrupt and greedy is a-okay, but being mercenaries isn't? Recall that, among other things, hypocrisy is inherent to the colour pair, and being greedy while rationalising why it isn't is something that can easily be expected from the Boros.




Mercenaries have traditionally been , though. Mostly because a mercenary is fighting for nothing more than personal gain.

That said, I could see someone confusing his (or her) own selfishness with a "cause". Happens all the time on the tubes.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Plus I don't want to see the Boros as Mercs either, that isn't really a \ type of feel to me, especially with there fluff.



So being corrupt and greedy is a-okay, but being mercenaries isn't? Recall that, among other things, hypocrisy is inherent to the colour pair, and being greedy while rationalising why it isn't is something that can easily be expected from the Boros.




 Yes but the Orzhov are loyal to their contracts, plus they will help you out big time if you joined them and rose through their ranks, but Boros could be bought out to the by someone else, and all this weird stuff, and I really don't like the feel of the Boros being mercs.

I see the Rakdos as the guild that's most likely to provide mercenaries for hire. Slavers as well.
Boros still police. Sure, the azorius have a fource, but it can not match up to the size+power of boros' army. 
Mercenaries have traditionally been , though. Mostly because a mercenary is fighting for nothing more than personal gain.

That said, I could see someone confusing his (or her) own selfishness with a "cause". Happens all the time on the tubes.



Sell-sword Brute
Hell, for the matter Mercenaries
NO MARKET FOR SHAMBLESHARKS! You seriously wouldn't buy one? 
NO MARKET FOR SHAMBLESHARKS! You seriously wouldn't buy one? 



Honestly, I wouldn't because they didn't list all the ingredients on that thing's packaging.
That isn't a crab shark. That's a man crab shark. There are parts of that being that could not have come from its other portions.