Bring Back Energy Drain!!!!


  Once upon a time if a vampire hit you, you could kiss goodbye to 2 levels and wghts could take away 1 level.

 This made these creatures feared. Now apparently energy drains are badfunwrong due to player entitlement and they ahd to go away. However I am willing to compromise.

 Bring back energy drains a'la 1st and 2nd ed but do not make the level loss permanent but have it last longer than a few rounds. 24 hours minimium, out to something like a month. So you have the effect which is still scary, do not make it permanent and the negative levels can be removed via restoration spells and whatever other mechanics they can thnk up.

 No permanent loss of levels, no xp loss. Collect enough negative energy levels though and you die and depending on the source say hi to a new wight/vampire/spectre.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

While I think that entire level drains demand too much bookkepping, I'm not against Ability Score Drain. But I think that both should be reversible in some way.
You also want something that say's you can only be affected by 1 at a time.  I don't want a vampire draining my level 20 fighter down to a level 1 noob.  Something like...

Energy Drain: Target takes disavantage on all attacks, saving throws, and skills for an hour.  If the target is already drained, increase the durration by an hour (this is cumulitive).

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my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The mechanics are too much of a pain. Having to de-level a character mid-game slows a PnP game to a crawl. Having to do it multiple times in a single fight renders that fight virtually unplayable. I don't mind the concept of a temporary level drain. But, the actual mechanics need to work well...

Energy Drain: Target takes disavantage on all attacks, saving throws, and skills for an hour.  If the target is already drained, increase the durration by an hour (this is cumulitive).



This seems like a good solution. 
 

Even temporary level drain is a pain to track. Videogames couldnt even handle it. I remember Gold Box games where you could be drained below level 1 and end up level 99. Though I guess for their time they did a good enough job of it. I do sorta miss the fear factor. I would rather just subtract xp.


  Once upon a time if a vampire hit you, you could kiss goodbye to 2 levels and wghts could take away 1 level.


It wasn't a roleplaying fear.  It was a metagame fear.  It's only scary in the way that a rule would be scary if the game said "Bring a loaded gun to the table. If the vampire bites a player's character, shoot that player".  The vampire would be mighty scary, sure.  But are you really roleplaying any more?

Losing XP never made sense and people complained about the absurdity of it all at cons all the time in the 1980's (when I went to Cons).  People joked that vampires didn't drink blood; they drank brain cells.  

3e tried to switch it over to generic "energy drain", but that had other problems.  (Quietly, Wizards stopped designing creatures with the power.)

Now apparently energy drains are badfunwrong due to player entitlement and they ahd to go away.


it's not always "player entitlement" when something you liked goes away.  Sometimes it goes away because it was a terrible idea whose time had long since passed.

Bring back energy drains a'la 1st and 2nd ed but do not make the level loss permanent but have it last longer than a few rounds.


I've got a better compromise.  Make vampires that are scare without meta-consequences and include a sidebar that says the following:

Level Drain: In early editions of the game, the ability of some undead creatures (like vampires and wraiths) to drain life was represented by the permanent loss of levels.  If you like this option, replace the "life drain" power with a carrier attack in which any hit by the creature reduces the target's levels by 1 with each attack.  A character reduced to less than 1 level is dead.  NPCs that lack character levels are unaffected by this power.  All levels lost can be restored with a Lesser Restoration or Restoration spell.  It is advisable that you make sure that the players have access to restoration spells through NPCs or items if they do not have a cleric on hand who can cast such spells, or in case the cleric is drained of so many levels that character cannot prepare a restoration spell.

Negative energy levels require you to do a ton of math at the table in the middle of combat.  That's not the kind of thing I would expect the designers to require people to do in the Standard Game.  It makes a fine Advanced module, though, for those who enjoy that sort of thing.
I guess "player entitlement" is the new trendy term to bash stuff we don't like, attempting to make it some objective label instead of just a personal preference.

I almost always DM and don't want people losing levels for A MONTH. That sets back my story, messes up any future encounters i have plans (oops, the party is now 4 levels lower, so they turn how to rest for a month). From a DM perspective, i don't care if level drains dies in a fire because i'm never going to use it on my players. All it does is mess up my campaign. Make it some special module or webenhancement so i don't have to rework classic monsters to cut the mechanic out, while leaving it for everyone else. 
I guess "player entitlement" is the new trendy term to bash stuff we don't like, attempting to make it some objective label instead of just a personal preference.



Yep.  Right after 'video-gamey'.

Level drain doesn't make sense in most of the cases it's been used.  'Removal of life-essence' doesn't equal 'amnesia' in any way I can determine.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.

  Once upon a time if a vampire hit you, you could kiss goodbye to 2 levels and wghts could take away 1 level.

Hell no.  Level Drain was among the dumbest things in a primitive game packed with really dumb things.  

This made these creatures feared.

Not really.  It made them a loosing proposition to melee.  You turned them or used a protection from undead scroll or whatever, because they litterally weren't worth fighting, they were a net negative experience value.  Eventually you got Restoration, but by then the cleric could vaporize level draining undead effortlessly.  Of course, if you didn't have a cleric...

 Bring back energy drains a'la 1st and 2nd ed but do not make the level loss permanent but have it last longer than a few rounds. 24 hours minimium, out to something like a month. So you have the effect which is still scary, do not make it permanent and the negative levels can be removed via restoration spells and whatever other mechanics they can thnk up.

That would be easy enough to do.  It could be handled with a 'module' that could also be used for long term injury, disease, and/or curses - anything that shouldn't go away just because you got a good night's sleep.

No permanent loss of levels, no xp loss.

That's not 1e/2e level drain.

 

 

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I guess "player entitlement" is the new trendy term to bash stuff we don't like, attempting to make it some objective label instead of just a personal preference.

+1

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
The 3.5e Complete Psionic book had a few Stygian powers, that were attempts at having an "Energy Drain"-like spell/power that functioned in a more balanced fashion ... relative to some sort of scale. 

In 4e terms, a power/ability that caused a (-1) penalty to be applied, happened all over the place.  Stackable didn't happen quite so often.  The Open Grave book has a few ways to be killed by a few different vampires, with ~additional things necessary, and boom you become a vampire.  From start to finish, it all worked somewhere in the ballpark like Energy Drain.

So yeah a call for a return of a previous edition mechanic ... I'm sure they can do it.  It wouldn't be the exact same, with some 5e-ish quirks.

5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

Have you (the OP) played using the current version?

I find that it is extremely powerful and does what I want energy drain to do.

It makes certain creatures really nasty and scary - and it does it without the need for adjusting the characters stats or creating a death spiral as they lose the ability to affect the enemy.

Carl
I think Energy Drain should be in the game as an option or module at least for people who wish to use them. 
If regular old injuring you - the thing that the majority of the monsters in the game, including things like demons and dragons do to PCs - isn't scary, the solution is to adjust things so that that is scary, not include a few dozen monsters among the vast sea of non-scary monsters that are scary because they circumvent the game's (apperantly non-scary) damage system. I can't help but read statements like "we need level drain/SoD/rust monsters because they're scary" as just brutal criticisms of D&D's game design; they're essentially allegations that the overwhelming majority of monster designs and the HP system are failures. That might be the case, but if it is, that needs to be addressed with an overhaul of those systems, not a dozen threats that circumvent those systems to be the "real" monsters.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Once upon a time if a vampire hit you, you could kiss goodbye to 2 levels and wghts could take away 1 level.

This made these creatures feared. Now apparently energy drains are badfunwrong due to player entitlement and they ahd to go away.


Energy drain doesn't create fear of the vampire; it creates a paperwork hassle that is annoying and time consuming and stops the game in the middle of combat.  You can say that they went away because of player entitlement, but you can't really prove whether it was the mythical player entitlement or the game-stopping paperwork hassle.

Oh, and energy drains are not badwrongfun.  I don't like them, but as long as they're an option then I'm not forced to use them or to avoid using creatures that have them.  Of course, making them an option means you either need to up the xp reward if you choose to use it, or the devs need to give us something to replace it with that also increases how dangerous they are (at a minimum this would mean increasing damage output).

However I am willing to compromise. Bring back energy drains a'la 1st and 2nd ed but do not make the level loss permanent but have it last longer than a few rounds. 24 hours minimium, out to something like a month. So you have the effect which is still scary, do not make it permanent and the negative levels can be removed via restoration spells and whatever other mechanics they can thnk up.

No permanent loss of levels, no xp loss. Collect enough negative energy levels though and you die and depending on the source say hi to a new wight/vampire/spectre.


The best compromise is to make all the level drain and ability damage/drain mechanics into options for making monsters deadlier (like the customization options that we have in the bestiary).  That way those of us who don't need the mechanical crutch to make monsters scary saddled with it as being an expected part of the creature's xp value.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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Save the breasts.

If regular old injuring you - the thing that the majority of the monsters in the game, including things like demons and dragons do to PCs - isn't scary, the solution is to adjust things so that that is scary, not include a few dozen monsters among the vast sea of non-scary monsters that are scary because they circumvent the game's (apperantly non-scary) damage system. I can't help but read statements like "we need level drain/SoD/rust monsters because they're scary" as just brutal criticisms of D&D's game design; they're essentially allegations that the overwhelming majority of monster designs and the HP system are failures. That might be the case, but if it is, that needs to be addressed with an overhaul of those systems, not a dozen threats that circumvent those systems to be the "real" monsters.



*applause*
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I guess "player entitlement" is the new trendy term to bash stuff we don't like, attempting to make it some objective label instead of just a personal preference.

I almost always DM and don't want people losing levels for A MONTH. That sets back my story, messes up any future encounters i have plans (oops, the party is now 4 levels lower, so they turn how to rest for a month). From a DM perspective, i don't care if level drains dies in a fire because i'm never going to use it on my players. All it does is mess up my campaign. Make it some special module or webenhancement so i don't have to rework classic monsters to cut the mechanic out, while leaving it for everyone else. 



This.

Back in the day of "disposable characters" it was an issue, add in the newer characters that take longer to create a full suite of abilities and it's even worse.
A good way to deal with Energy Drain IMO would be in an optional module of some kind that would include Fear and Horror checks, cursed items and a few monsters variants with Energy Drain abilities for exemple. Something Ravenloft may be...

If regular old injuring you - the thing that the majority of the monsters in the game, including things like demons and dragons do to PCs - isn't scary, the solution is to adjust things so that that is scary, not include a few dozen monsters among the vast sea of non-scary monsters that are scary because they circumvent the game's (apperantly non-scary) damage system. I can't help but read statements like "we need level drain/SoD/rust monsters because they're scary" as just brutal criticisms of D&D's game design; they're essentially allegations that the overwhelming majority of monster designs and the HP system are failures. That might be the case, but if it is, that needs to be addressed with an overhaul of those systems, not a dozen threats that circumvent those systems to be the "real" monsters.



This is a great point and something i think the devs need to take a long, hard look at, regardless of what happens with energy drain.
If regular old injuring you - the thing that the majority of the monsters in the game, including things like demons and dragons do to PCs - isn't scary, the solution is to adjust things so that that is scary, not include a few dozen monsters among the vast sea of non-scary monsters that are scary because they circumvent the game's (apperantly non-scary) damage system. I can't help but read statements like "we need level drain/SoD/rust monsters because they're scary" as just brutal criticisms of D&D's game design; they're essentially allegations that the overwhelming majority of monster designs and the HP system are failures. That might be the case, but if it is, that needs to be addressed with an overhaul of those systems, not a dozen threats that circumvent those systems to be the "real" monsters.



*applause*


Double quoted, for double applause.
Or applesauce.
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I can't help but read statements like "we need level drain/SoD/rust monsters because they're scary" as just brutal criticisms of D&D's game design; they're essentially allegations that the overwhelming majority of monster designs and the HP system are failures.

It also speaks to what matters about characters.  In classic D&D, you had few choices about how your character developed.  What made your character special was stats you randomly rolled, his level, and what magic items he'd found (if a wizard, that includes what spells he found and recorded in his spellbook).  Hit points only mattered if you were actually killed, and, if you were higher level, your party could probably bring you back.  Being damaged didn't strip your character of anything that really mattered.  Being level-drained did, it sucked away your all-important levels.  Your THAC0, your almighty top level spells.  Rust Monsters and Disenchanters and the like were even worse, they took away your magic items, the only things that made you different from the next guy of the same class & level!



 

 

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I love me some Old fashioned AD&D.  I learned from the old blue box, and used "save-or-die" mechanics all the time.
That said, I think I'd rather they return to THAC0 before they consider bringing back the game-ruining wretchedness that was Level Draining abilities.  There's no quicker way to tell a player that the time they've spent was useless than to let them know that some random hit from a not-too-uncommon undead creature has just sucked away 8 to 14 hours of their invested playtime.

Wights carry a nasty undead disease, necessitating a big, fat, expensive dose of remove curse?  Sure.  Vampires inflict vampirism, and a whole sub-quest in order to keep your Paladin from going all nosferatu?  You betcha.  But immediately dropping you to where you were three real-time weeks ago?  No.  I don't need to coddle my players.  Their PCs die on occasion.  But Level Drain was just a cheap sucker-punch directly to what made some people want to play.  Punch them there, and they wont want to play any more.


   
 

Even temporary level drain is a pain to track. Videogames couldnt even handle it. I remember Gold Box games where you could be drained below level 1 and end up level 99. Though I guess for their time they did a good enough job of it. I do sorta miss the fear factor. I would rather just subtract xp.




Well the 3E negative level mechanic was fine, you don't have to ever actually take off full levels from your character sheet, and that worked pretty well.

It was just per negative level you took a -1 to attacks,saves, checks and lost 5 max hit points, and you lose 1 off your caster level. That's pretty simple.
I agree w/ the frito who agrees with salla who agrees w/ Lesp's response. Well said.
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If regular old injuring you - the thing that the majority of the monsters in the game, including things like demons and dragons do to PCs - isn't scary, the solution is to adjust things so that that is scary, not include a few dozen monsters among the vast sea of non-scary monsters that are scary because they circumvent the game's (apperantly non-scary) damage system. I can't help but read statements like "we need level drain/SoD/rust monsters because they're scary" as just brutal criticisms of D&D's game design; they're essentially allegations that the overwhelming majority of monster designs and the HP system are failures. That might be the case, but if it is, that needs to be addressed with an overhaul of those systems, not a dozen threats that circumvent those systems to be the "real" monsters.



I would disagree with you.

A Character is comprised of n variables.  Where n = all of the values that comprise the character's innate qualities and all of the objects that improve those innate qualities.

What you're arguing is that we restrict ourselves to using only 1 of those values as something that can be affected by a supernatural creature,  and that all other values are sacrosanct.  Which means,  as far as the state of the character goes,  he has only two:  Alive or Dead.

We're seriously restricting our array of options in that case for rather arbitrary reasons.  We're also restricing our variety of play,  the degree of tension involved in play and decisions,  and the challenge. 

I would argue it's better to use all of n,  in order to provide more variety,  more and different tension,  and more and different challenge.  When we use all of n,  when we can affect level,  stats,  items,  we offer different and more or less threatening events to happen.  A creature who can temporarily weaken you is a whole lot different than throwing out another creature who causes damage. 

It encourages the whole party to work together,  it encourages the whole party to collaborate on tactics,  because if that creature can weaken the fighter,  hiding behind a "Meat shield" isn't the best of ideas.

Just cranking up damage to try and threaten the party is limiting,  and becomes rote.  Use the whole design space,  don't just limit combat to Health.  Because otherwise,  the game is just a one trick pony.          
I would disagree with you.

A Character is comprised of n variables.  Where n = all of the values that comprise the character's innate qualities and all of the objects that improve those innate qualities.

What you're arguing is that we restrict ourselves to using only 1 of those values as something that can be affected by a supernatural creature,  and that all other values are sacrosanct.  Which means,  as far as the state of the character goes,  he has only two:  Alive or Dead.

We're seriously restricting our array of options in that case for rather arbitrary reasons.  We're also restricing our variety of play,  the degree of tension involved in play and decisions,  and the challenge. 

I would argue it's better to use all of n,  in order to provide more variety,  more and different tension,  and more and different challenge.  When we use all of n,  when we can affect level,  stats,  items,  we offer different and more or less threatening events to happen.  A creature who can temporarily weaken you is a whole lot different than throwing out another creature who causes damage. 

It encourages the whole party to work together,  it encourages the whole party to collaborate on tactics,  because if that creature can weaken the fighter,  hiding behind a "Meat shield" isn't the best of ideas.

Just cranking up damage to try and threaten the party is limiting,  and becomes rote.  Use the whole design space,  don't just limit combat to Health.  Because otherwise,  the game is just a one trick pony.          

I'm not arguing that at all, or at least not intending to do so. I think it's great if some monsters have non-damage ways of harming the players (although not all angles of doing that are equally exciting.) I don't think I claim anywhere that we shouldn't have monsters that do that. I'm just arguing that if we feel like we need them because the normal way that the majority of monsters have of harming the players isn't something that people are afraid of, that says something extremely powerful about how damage is calibrated and how it works, and not something positive. It might have been clearer had I said "...not just include a few dozen monsters among the vast sea of non-scary monsters that are scary..."
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.

  Once upon a time if a vampire hit you, you could kiss goodbye to 2 levels and wghts could take away 1 level.

 This made these creatures feared. Now apparently energy drains are badfunwrong due to player entitlement and they ahd to go away. However I am willing to compromise.

 Bring back energy drains a'la 1st and 2nd ed but do not make the level loss permanent but have it last longer than a few rounds. 24 hours minimium, out to something like a month. So you have the effect which is still scary, do not make it permanent and the negative levels can be removed via restoration spells and whatever other mechanics they can thnk up.

 No permanent loss of levels, no xp loss. Collect enough negative energy levels though and you die and depending on the source say hi to a new wight/vampire/spectre.


I think a decent compromise might be how they did the death penalty in 4e.  Make it so vamps and wraiths and wights and who not could level drain and impose penalties on you until say the 3rd milestone, or maybe after like 3 - 4 extended rests or something.
Negative energy levels require you to do a ton of math at the table in the middle of combat.  That's not the kind of thing I would expect the designers to require people to do in the Standard Game.  It makes a fine Advanced module, though, for those who enjoy that sort of thing.

And that's all that really needs to be spoken of about it, other than the mechanics of how energy drain as level drain should work for people that want it.

End thread.

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I hated level drain in 2e no matter what I was doing in the game. The random math sucked, the fact that you just lost a month of play 'cause some thing touched you sucked. I prefer death effects over level drain because most death effects are justified in the context of the event.


3e's energy drain, on the other hand, made a lot more sense to me. It was still evil and still something people would react to strongly, but it wasn't this massive character sheet-changing event that eclipsed the irritation of making a new character 'cause you fell into that lava pit trap.



But my favourite way to deal with energy drain is through ability damage. A vampire draining con reflects the same thing as level drain but in a far less irritating way. It's just as disgustingly nasty on the players 'cause their max hp are being lost with every hit. It's still far-reaching and requires book keeping, but not nearly as much as getting rid of actual levels.


Stuff that drains ability scores on a hit scares the hell out of people. Bounded accuracy makes them even more dangerous, 'cause while HP scales up to stupid with the stupid damage scaling, ability scores don't. So if I'm after a mob that's gonna make the players freak and run even if it's 10 levels lower than them, I'll pick one with ability drain.

Stuff that drains ability scores on a hit scares the hell out of people.

...and then they learn how to abuse it.

My suggestion for long time effects (more two encounters) by monster attacs is the idea of template penalty.

The penalty template is like a special attack added to monsters like optional template. The penalty can be caused by fatal injurie, supernatural curse, sickness or poisons. The PCs get extra XPs reward if they have could know avoid it, they are survived all the time with the penalty or heal.

 

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I dont know how I feel about energy drain. As a player I both hated and feared it over just about anyother kind of attack. Because of that I rarely used ED creatures, but when I did it usually made for some epic combat.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

If regular old injuring you - the thing that the majority of the monsters in the game, including things like demons and dragons do to PCs - isn't scary, the solution is to adjust things so that that is scary, not include a few dozen monsters among the vast sea of non-scary monsters that are scary because they circumvent the game's (apperantly non-scary) damage system. I can't help but read statements like "we need level drain/SoD/rust monsters because they're scary" as just brutal criticisms of D&D's game design; they're essentially allegations that the overwhelming majority of monster designs and the HP system are failures. That might be the case, but if it is, that needs to be addressed with an overhaul of those systems, not a dozen threats that circumvent those systems to be the "real" monsters.



*applause*


Double quoted, for double applause.
Or applesauce.
Now I'm hungry.
Also:



If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

I think this is an excellent suggestion.

For an Advanced module.

Good call Zard. 
I don't wat the oldschool energy drain back. To me it doesn't feel right that those monsters can easily cause metagame problems and metagaming when they should be scary in-character.

Energy drain as in permanent, cumulative level loss can and will result in abuse by the DM or the players, especially when your DM is of the meaner or unexperienced kind. It can completely destroy party balance up to a point where certain players would rather kill off their characters in order to be on par with the rest of the group and contribute equally.

What I do like is some kind of "aftershock" effect for draining abilities that you either have to cure (which should NOT require magic) or sit out or overcome through personal character growth from within (gain a level, reach a certain point in a campaign, do a personal quest, gain a certain amount of XP...).

If handled sensitively, drain can become a scary and story-enhancing part of a really nasty monster's arsenal. If handled like before (1-3e), it can destroy whole campaigns.
So the reward for behaving heroic and confronting evil today gets to be.... brain damage and becoming less heroic... ummm 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I dont know how I feel about energy drain. As a player I both hated and feared it over just about anyother kind of attack. Because of that I rarely used ED creatures, but when I did it usually made for some epic combat.


This is a compelling reason to keep the ability in there and use it sparingly. If I was designing monsters, I might even go so far as to not put it on any monster in the book but have it listed with the monster abilities with a note that reads something like, "this is an incredibly dangerous, game changing ability for a monster to have. Use with caution."
I even prefer classic save and die mechanics a thousand times than energy drain.

I prefer to have my character dead and pay for a rez than suffer a single energy drain adjustment and tracking.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

If regular old injuring you - the thing that the majority of the monsters in the game, including things like demons and dragons do to PCs - isn't scary, the solution is to adjust things so that that is scary, not include a few dozen monsters among the vast sea of non-scary monsters that are scary because they circumvent the game's (apperantly non-scary) damage system. I can't help but read statements like "we need level drain/SoD/rust monsters because they're scary" as just brutal criticisms of D&D's game design; they're essentially allegations that the overwhelming majority of monster designs and the HP system are failures. That might be the case, but if it is, that needs to be addressed with an overhaul of those systems, not a dozen threats that circumvent those systems to be the "real" monsters.


This, thank you.
Real normal damage is scarier for instance it can induce - brain damage with effects just as if not more extensive including inability to communicate, induce blindness and maiming including permanent movement loss, severe appearance destruction via scaring and so on... 

Oh and magic items being far too valuable/central to your non-caster characters capacity is highlit by the rust monsters
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

 Thats why I did say the level loss would not be permanent. I want something a bit nastier that 4th ed, not as bad as 2nd ed and 3.5 was a crapshoot IIRC on energy drain.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

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