In D&D Next, the sky should be blue!

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OF course there will be an argument. You could say the sky is blue and you would find an argument on these forums. It's not worth the effort of the designers to try to appease those people.

Let's test this theory shall we?

In D&DN, the default color of the sky should be blue across all settings where it would make sense to have a normal, reality-based, sky color.  The notable exception to this shall be the Dark Sun's setting of Athas, where the sky should be more depicted as burnt orange in coloration.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.


OF course there will be an argument. You could say the sky is blue and you would find an argument on these forums. It's not worth the effort of the designers to try to appease those people.

Let's test this theory shall we?

In D&DN, the default color of the sky should be blue across all settings where it would make sense to have a normal, reality-based, sky color.  The notable exception to this shall be the Dark Sun's setting of Athas, where the sky should be more depicted as burnt orange in coloration.


And in Mystara's Hollow World, where the sky is dirt.  
And Planescape, where the sky is more Sigil.  (Sigil being located in a torus.) 
And Spelljammer where the sky is black (being D&D in spaaaaace)

Also, the sky should be black in all settings when it's night.

(Is that enough debate for you?) 
Reminds me of an awesome TV movie, The Sky Is Gray.
In 4E FR, in returned Abeir the sky is silver.
...whatever
While the specific aspect of the campaign setting that was given for the example is particularly DERP, I can't object to the idea that it's a good thing to not have a default campaign setting.

It most certainly is worth pleasing "those people" who don't want the system to dictate how their campaign world looks.  And they're worth pleasing because doing so is in accordance with the original core design goals for Next of inclusiveness, there not being a "right" way to play, and making the game your own.

It is the people who refuse to accept and throw a tantrum on the forums just because someone might not have a blue sky (or whatever their pet peeve issue of the day is) that are not worth pleasing.  Other people might not play the same way as you, and you don't get to deny them that opportunity any more than I get to prevent you from playing the way you want.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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OF course there will be an argument. You could say the sky is blue and you would find an argument on these forums. It's not worth the effort of the designers to try to appease those people.

Let's test this theory shall we?

In D&DN, the default color of the sky should be blue across all settings where it would make sense to have a normal, reality-based, sky color.  The notable exception to this shall be the Dark Sun's setting of Athas, where the sky should be more depicted as burnt orange in coloration.


And in Mystara's Hollow World, where the sky is dirt.  
And Planescape, where the sky is more Sigil.  (Sigil being located in a torus.) 
And Spelljammer where the sky is black (being D&D in spaaaaace)

Also, the sky should be black in all settings when it's night.

(Is that enough debate for you?) 

I think we're done here, yes.  Unless of course we want to continue the more interesting discussion of how pointless it is to encode general ascetics into a game system.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.


OF course there will be an argument. You could say the sky is blue and you would find an argument on these forums. It's not worth the effort of the designers to try to appease those people.

Let's test this theory shall we?

In D&DN, the default color of the sky should be blue across all settings where it would make sense to have a normal, reality-based, sky color.  The notable exception to this shall be the Dark Sun's setting of Athas, where the sky should be more depicted as burnt orange in coloration.



I just need to know why it has that sky.  Blue indigo and violet light still will scatter.



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
OF course there will be an argument. You could say the sky is blue and you would find an argument on these forums. It's not worth the effort of the designers to try to appease those people.

Let's test this theory shall we?

In D&DN, the default color of the sky should be blue across all settings where it would make sense to have a normal, reality-based, sky color.  The notable exception to this shall be the Dark Sun's setting of Athas, where the sky should be more depicted as burnt orange in coloration.


Not if Athas has a rotation.  Violet blue and green light will always scatter in the thicker atmosphere.  


I don't know.  Athasian sky always seems to be orangish.



 
I don't know.  Athasian sky always seems to be orangish.

Too much blood in the sand is making it into the upper atmosphere.

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/222/7/4/Desrt_Shark_by_BenWootten.jpg

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Rotation has nothing to do with the color of the sky.  It has everything to do with the size and composition of the various gases and particles that are in it, along with the source of light.

The real reason Dark Sun's skies are orange is because it's got a dark sun - check the Dark Sun logo on the 2e book, posted above.  Such a sun would not have much, if any, blue light, and so it would not have anything to scatter nicely azure.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

The real reason Dark Sun's skies are orange is because it's got a dark sun - check the Dark Sun logo on the 2e book, posted above.  Such a sun would not have much, if any, blue light, and so it would not have anything to scatter nicely azure.

While your answer is more scientifically correct, I still like my explanation better.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Rotation has nothing to do with the color of the sky.  It has everything to do with the size and composition of the various gases and particles that are in it, along with the source of light.





Rotation has alot to do with the color of the sky.  Why is the sky reddish at dawn and dusk?  The angle of the sunlight hitting the atmosphere at those times make the red and orange wavelength scatter more.  Also due to Mars' rotation the sky at dusk and dawn is more blue, because the Rayleigh effect is more significant at that angle than the dust.

Most important is atmospheric thickness and composition so correct on that. 

I always explained it with the distance from Athas and the dust *


The real reason Dark Sun's skies are orange is because it's got a dark sun - check the Dark Sun logo on the 2e book, posted above.  Such a sun would not have much, if any, blue light, and so it would not have anything to scatter nicely azure.



The color of the sun would not matter so much, because all of the EM spectrum would still be given off, so the Blue band of light would still be the same range as our yellow sun.*

*Edited for OCD reasons.



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
Rotation has nothing to do with the color of the sky.  It has everything to do with the size and composition of the various gases and particles that are in it, along with the source of light.

The real reason Dark Sun's skies are orange is because it's got a dark sun - check the Dark Sun logo on the 2e book, posted above.  Such a sun would not have much, if any, blue light, and so it would not have anything to scatter nicely azure.



Rotation has alot to do with the color of the sky.  Why is the sky reddish at dawn and dusk?  The angle of the sunlight hitting the atmosphere at those times make the red and orange wavelength scatter more.  Also due to Mars' rotation the sky at dusk and dawn is more blue, because the Rayleigh effect is more significant at that angle than the dust.

Most important is atmospheric thickness and composition so correct on that. 

I always explained it with the dust





Er, okay, yes, rotation can be why the color of the sky changes for your particular location, but it has nothing to do with why the colors are the way they are.  If we got tide-locked to the Sun like the Moon is with us, so that one day is one year and the same side always faces the Sun, then for the people in the middle (aside from having a nasty sunburn) they'd see a blue sky, whereas the people at the edges of daylight would see the standard red-orange sunsets as the blue light gets scattered out.

I'm not clear on your comment about Mars's dusk/dawn - regardless of the dust, the Rayleigh scattering would reduce the amount of blue you see at dusk, not increase it.  It's solely a path length issue:  there is more atmosphere for the light to go through at dusk/dawn, so more of the blue is scattered out so the red gets to you.  If the sky is bluer at dusk/dawn on Mars, it isn't because of Rayleigh scattering.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The real reason Dark Sun's skies are orange is because it's got a dark sun - check the Dark Sun logo on the 2e book, posted above.  Such a sun would not have much, if any, blue light, and so it would not have anything to scatter nicely azure.



The color of the sun would not matter so much, because all of the EM spectrum would still be given off, so the Blue band of light would still be the same range as our yellow sun.*

*Edited for OCD reasons.


Black-body radiation

The temperature of a thing changes the kind of light that it gives off.  Not "all of" the EM spectrum is given off - it cuts off once you get to short enough wavelengths.  Our sun is hot enough to give off a little bit of UV, whereas a nice fat blue giant gives off much lower wavelengths, in addition to simply more light.  When you look at the difference between a red giant, our yellow Sun, and a blue giant, what you're seeing is the change in the spectrum based on temperature.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
The real reason Dark Sun's skies are orange is because it's got a dark sun - check the Dark Sun logo on the 2e book, posted above.  Such a sun would not have much, if any, blue light, and so it would not have anything to scatter nicely azure.



The color of the sun would not matter so much, because all of the EM spectrum would still be given off, so the Blue band of light would still be the same range as our yellow sun.*

*Edited for OCD reasons.


Black-body radiation

The temperature of a thing changes the kind of light that it gives off.  Not "all of" the EM spectrum is given off - it cuts off once you get to short enough wavelengths.  Our sun is hot enough to give off a little bit of UV, whereas a nice fat blue giant gives off much lower wavelengths, in addition to simply more light.  When you look at the difference between a red giant, our yellow Sun, and a blue giant, what you're seeing is the change in the spectrum based on temperature.



Fair enough, I forgot to consider black bodies.

Er, okay, yes, rotation can be why the color of the sky changes for your particular location, but it has nothing to do with why the colors are the way they are.  If we got tide-locked to the Sun like the Moon is with us, so that one day is one year and the same side always faces the Sun, then for the people in the middle (aside from having a nasty sunburn) they'd see a blue sky, whereas the people at the edges of daylight would see the standard red-orange sunsets as the blue light gets scattered out.

I'm not clear on your comment about Mars's dusk/dawn - regardless of the dust, the Rayleigh scattering would reduce the amount of blue you see at dusk, not increase it.  It's solely a path length issue:  there is more atmosphere for the light to go through at dusk/dawn, so more of the blue is scattered out so the red gets to you.  If the sky is bluer at dusk/dawn on Mars, it isn't because of Rayleigh scattering.




Well certainly not the Rayleigh effect alone.  By all counts the sky on mars would be the shortest of the blue but we don't see that because of the dust.  So there could be some interection with the scattered light.  I jumped to conclusion with the Rayleigh effect when I heard that in the Curiosity briefing last week that I still think is up on JPL.


Here you go, if this does not mention the blue sky, I think it does, maybe it is one of the ones below it on the page.

www.jpl.nasa.gov/video/index.php?id=1199



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
OF course there will be an argument. You could say the sky is blue and you would find an argument on these forums. It's not worth the effort of the designers to try to appease those people.

Let's test this theory shall we?

In D&DN, the default color of the sky should be blue across all settings where it would make sense to have a normal, reality-based, sky color.  The notable exception to this shall be the Dark Sun's setting of Athas, where the sky should be more depicted as burnt orange in coloration.


Not if Athas has a rotation.  Violet blue and green light will always scatter in the thicker atmosphere.  


I don't know.  Athasian sky always seems to be orangish.



 



It could also sugest that athas might be a bigger planet then earth hacing a bigger athmosphere.
sonlight tends to look more red when having to travel trough more atmosphere like it does at runrise and sunset on earth. 
It could also be (partially) magic. I don't mean that in a dismissive "It's magic! Stop thinking about it!" way. Athas is defined in large party by the fact that arcane magic defiles the environment. Usually we think about that in terms of the effect defiling has on the ground in general and on plant life in particular, but it's reasonable that it might also alter the character of the atmosphere. Because the atmosphere is a gas, the "pollution" would diffuse through it much more rapidly than it would through the ground, more or less uniformly discoloring the atmosphere over time, at least in the regions of Athas that we "see".
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Speaking of blue, are the nac mac feegle really just bad-ass smurfs in kilts?...
Speaking of blue, are the nac mac feegle really just bad-ass smurfs in kilts?

Seeing as how kilts make everything more bad-ass......sure?

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Speaking of blue, are the nac mac feegle really just bad-ass smurfs in kilts?

Seeing as how kilts make everything more bad-ass......sure?




maybe the urge to wear a kilt is a side-effect of bad-ass.
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Speaking of blue, are the nac mac feegle really just bad-ass smurfs in kilts?

Seeing as how kilts make everything more bad-ass......sure?

maybe the urge to wear a kilt is a side-effect of bad-ass.

Let's save that argument for another thread (that we never make).

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

In my campaign world, color does not exist.  It has many subtle shades of grey instead.  If I can't have a colorless world in the core rulebooks, then count me out as a purchaser.  It's a slap in the face, and also a spit in the face and countless other hyperbolic exclamations!
Um, most languages in my campaign setting don't have a word for "Blue", instead considering what we call "Blue" to simply be a shade of Green, so the sky is referred to as being Green (or, more specifically, "Sky Green").

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My campaign world actualy sits on a rainbow, so the sky looks a different color depending on where you look. North is the "cold" colors (blue, indigo), while south is the "warm" ones. Right now, The Kingdom of yellow just invaded Greenland.
If the sky is blue, you're in arctic cold. 
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Best thread ever! How long can we keep it going?...

Gods willing, forever.

My campaign world actualy sits on a rainbow, so the sky looks a different color depending on where you look. North is the "cold" colors (blue, indigo), while south is the "warm" ones. Right now, The Kingdom of yellow just invaded Greenland.
If the sky is blue, you're in arctic cold. 

No!  We only have so many pages to dedicate to sky descriptions in Next and all of them must be uniformly blue.  Your rainbow sky breaks from others' feelings of reality based sky colorations.  There's no room for t in Next.  Maybe it can be in a module book later near the end of Next's run.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

What color is the elemental plane of air?  Does it really even have a "sky"?

OF course there will be an argument. You could say the sky is blue and you would find an argument on these forums. It's not worth the effort of the designers to try to appease those people.

Let's test this theory shall we?

In D&DN, the default color of the sky should be blue across all settings where it would make sense to have a normal, reality-based, sky color.  The notable exception to this shall be the Dark Sun's setting of Athas, where the sky should be more depicted as burnt orange in coloration.


That's not what he said at all. You've given a version that is 'Hey, if you want the sky to be blue (cause it makes sense to you) do so'

Yeah, that's a big ask towards one central conformity. Not.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

What color is the elemental plane of air?  Does it really even have a "sky"?

The 3.5 Manual of the Planes doesn't mention how the plane is lit, unfortunately. (The book is VERY concerned with gravity, but not so much with lighting.) I've always assumed that it looks like a clear blue sky (where there aren't clouds and air elementals and stuff in the way), but that'd only be the case if it was being lit from some direction by something like a sun, or if it was just light out all the time because that's how it works. The plane is infinite, so any single light source as the source of light is problematic, unless you're willing for there to be only a band of well-lit plane in between the too-bright and too-dark parts. Additionally, because the plane is full of air (in addition to rocks and djinni and stuff), the band of acceptable light would be much narrower than it is in space, because there's all kinds of stuff blocking it and the air is scattering the light. I think it makes more sense for the plane to just sort of be intrinsically lit, but I don't know if that'd make it properly blue. Complicating things is the fact that the MotP does (randomly) mention a dark room (an unlit cell) on the elemental plane of air, which means that however the lighting works, it works in a way such that you can darken a room. This may, however, work something like the plane's gravity (which is subjective), or may simply be an ordinary magical effect (spells like Darkness work perfectly normally on the plane.)
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Thats it! If the sky isnt blue in NEXT Im out! /throws toys out of pram
(hadnt seen this argument here  and thought it appropriate)
Update on lighting the Elemental Plane of Air: the Elemental Plane of Water, which suffers from the same lighting issues as the Plane of air (although much more intensely, since light dissipates much faster underwater than in air) is explicitly stated to be "lit by a diffuse glow". It's very reasonable to assume, I think, that the Elemental Plane of Air is lit by the same effect. The EPoW's glow gives everything a "blue-green aura", but it's not clear if that's just the effect of lighting something underwater or if the light itself is blue-green.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Fortunately, the elemental planes do not need to adhere to the laws of astrophysics.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Fortunately, the elemental planes do not need to adhere to the laws of astrophysics.

Or do they???

Or are we just going to say that the elemental planes are like Wizards and don't have to follow any real rules because *magic* while the skies for the more traditional adventuring world must adhere to the natural order of things?

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.


Fortunately, the elemental planes do not need to adhere to the laws of astrophysics.

Or do they???

Or are we just going to say that the elemental planes are like Wizards and don't have to follow any real rules because *magic* while the skies for the more traditional adventuring world must adhere to the natural order of things?



It doesn't matter, as long as more traditional material-style planes have something meaningful and interesting to contribute to the cosmos, and don't feel left out.

Fortunately, the elemental planes do not need to adhere to the laws of astrophysics.

Or do they???

Or are we just going to say that the elemental planes are like Wizards and don't have to follow any real rules because *magic* while the skies for the more traditional adventuring world must adhere to the natural order of things?



The planes have their own physics distinctly separate from the Material plane, according to the AD&D Manual of the Planes.  They follow their own consistent laws of physics which may or may not be distinctly different from the material plane.

I don't know about 4e but as far as I know the elemental planes do not have stars, or even much mass so something else must be providing gravity and light.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!

Fortunately, the elemental planes do not need to adhere to the laws of astrophysics.

Or do they???

Or are we just going to say that the elemental planes are like Wizards and don't have to follow any real rules because *magic* while the skies for the more traditional adventuring world must adhere to the natural order of things?


Uh

Yes?

We're talking about things that are ostensibly planets, with a sun that rises and sets, compared to a plane of existence composed of nothing but water, to infinity. 

They don't have to play by the same rules.  Not because magic, but because planes.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Fortunately, the elemental planes do not need to adhere to the laws of astrophysics.

Or do they???

Or are we just going to say that the elemental planes are like Wizards and don't have to follow any real rules because *magic* while the skies for the more traditional adventuring world must adhere to the natural order of things?



The planes have their own physics distinctly separate from the Material plane, according to the AD&D Manual of the Planes.  They follow their own consistent laws of physics which may or may not be distinctly different from the material plane.

I don't know about 4e but as far as I know the elemental planes do not have stars, or even much mass so something else must be providing gravity and light.


The planes of earth and water, at least, have a lot of mass.  But there's an equal amount of mass in all directions, hence the generally neutral gravity.

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

The planes of earth and water, at least, have a lot of mass.  But there's an equal amount of mass in all directions, hence the generally neutral gravity.




Which poses the question for Water and Earth:  Since gravity is based on the center of an object, how does the gravity manifest in those planes?  Clearly in spelljamming gravity is not point based, it is aplane (As in mathematical construct).  I wonder how gravity would work on EP EArth where mass is a constant all around.


CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
Gravity is only based on the center of an object if that object is a sphere.  In general, each little bit of mass has its own gravitational pull, and it's only because of a quirk of geometry that a large sphere like the Earth behaves exactly like the same mass concentrated to a point would.

In the case of an elemental plane, you have an infinite amount of mass in all directions, all pulling you equally.  It balances out, and you have basically zero.  This works fine in the elemental plane of water, because people expect to have roughly neutral buoyancy, but for the plane of earth the gravity theory gets a bit wonky.  Typical physics will tell you that gravity is zero everywhere in the elemental plane of earth.  Which is where subjective gravity comes in, a concept that's really quite necessary to have several of the planes make any sense for humanoid occupation at all.  So you can walk on the 'bottom' of a cave.

Elemental plane of air has the same gravitational issues, and subjective gravity is necessary again so that you can 'fly'. 

Elemental plane of fire, on the other hand, for some reason seems to be much more close to a typical planet-like configuration, with solids and liquids on the ground and in lakes and hot 'air' in the sky.  Not sure why it's the odd plane out in this regard.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Elemental plane of fire, on the other hand, for some reason seems to be much more close to a typical planet-like configuration, with solids and liquids on the ground and in lakes and hot 'air' in the sky.  Not sure why it's the odd plane out in this regard.



Its probably because fire as we perceive it would not manifest that way in any form of gravity other than the natural world.  If Fire had all the traits of neutral gravity it owuld probably be spherical and not owrk with the classic definition.



CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production. D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!