Spells targeting the mind - save vs. Int?

I've noticed that all spells that target the mind, such as Cause Fear or Charm Person, cause the target to save using wisdom. Surely the target should save using intelligence, since this represents strength of mind and mental ability more than wisdom does?


I would imagine a wizard would be able to resist these kind of spells better than a cleric can.

There are things that trick the senses, that make a character see things that are not there or hear things that are not there. For those situations the character resists by being able to judge whether the input in real or not. An example would be an illusion of a wall of fire, where the character needs to cross it for some reason and needs to figure out if the danger is real or not. It is an external threat to the mind that tricks the senses but leaves the mind clear to judge.

There are things that bend the emotions,  and cause the character to make poor decisions based apon the false emotions. The character needs to resist through insight that they are being manipulated. An example is a charm person spell, where for some reason strong emotions now cloud judgment. It is an internal threat that actually changes the way the mind thinks.

There are things that take over a character's free will. They are resisted through force of will. An example of this is a hold person spell; the character wants to move, but now cannot. It is an internal threat, but does not alter how the mind thinks, but suppresses some portion of it so it does not align with the characters actions (or lack thereof, with a hold spell).

So, I'd say that there are at least three different kind of mental saves that can be made, and divvied up between the three mental attributes. I don't really care how they split it up, as long as they do. Everything doesn't need to be under Wisdom's umbrella, especially when it makes better sense elsewhere.
I kind of agree with AquaticSpaceChicken (awesome nickname btw xD), i see the TS as this:



  • Int for illusions

  • Wis for charms

  • Cha for paralizing and fear effects


And i´ll add:


  • Dex for deafening and restrains

  • Str for restrains

  • Con for blinding, stuns, petrifications and intoxications

I kind of agree with AquaticSpaceChicken (awesome nickname btw xD), i see the TS as this:



  • Int for illusions

  • Wis for charms

  • Cha for paralizing and fear effects


And i´ll add:


  • Dex for deafening and restrains

  • Str for restrains

  • Con for blinding, stuns, petrifications and intoxications




I generally do Dex for blinding as I consider the only really counter looking away or shielding ones eyes.
i see the TS as this:



  • Int for illusions

  • Wis for charms

  • Cha for paralizing and fear effects




I hope we see this in D&DN. 

What the rules say:
STR for resisting pushes, knock aside rolling bolders, catch a collapsing ceiling, grab onto a ledge to keep from falling
DEX for lightning bolts, fireballs, dodging pillars, diving away from charging horses
CON for resisting diseases, poison, fatigue, petrification, long-term injuries, and excruciating pain
INT for resisting "attempts to overcome your intellect"
WIS for charmed, frightened, see through illusions, and withstand attempts to influence you
CHA for magical compulsions, "especially those that would overcome your sense of self."

Intelligence and Charisma saves are vague, and Wisdom is too catch-all. Perhaps they simply need more types of effects in play, such as psionics. I do like the STR/DEX/CON distinctions and hope the "grab a ledge" rule is in the core rules somewhere, like it was in 4E.

Here's my suggested list to fix things:
STR for restraints, movement slows, catching a ledge
DEX for dodging spells (lightning bolt / fireball) and jumping out of the way of things
CON for poison, diseases, fatigue, petrification, etc.
INT for psionics (like mind flayers), hypnotism, and confusion-like effects
WIS for frightened and seeing past illusions
CHA for charms and other compulsions to do things specifically against your will (as opposed to effects that render you generally disabled, such as hypnotism or confusion, which fall under Intelligence).
These ideas seem much better, I hope someone from WotC reads this and agrees and makes the change.
Why I do agree that diversity in resistance is a good thing, I doubt it will be changed because of the convienience factor. It's simple to say DEX for doging spells, WIS for mind spells and it leads to less time looking back through the rulebook. Also this allows characters to become more "magically resistant" by upping their WIS as opposed to being forced to increase three stats (WIS, INT, CHA).
The Oberoni fallacy only applies to broken rules, not rules you don't like. If a rule you don't like can be easily ignored, it should exist in the game for those who will enjoy it.
The "save vs." is stated in the spell or ability doing the attack, so there isn't any looking up involved.

I would argue that spreading the save stats is a good thing since it means that clerics don't have it easy while wizards and sorcerers have to struggle. 
Agree - int is still the dump stat. Making it more useful on saving throws - and reducing the usefulness of wisdom which does way too much - is a great idea.