Everyday I'm Shufflin'...

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OK, I'm sure it's all happened to us. You sit down for a game of Magic and after the first or second turn, you draw ten lands in a row. Now, this is obviously because a lack of properly distributing the cards evenly throughout the deck, even though we may shuffle repeatedly. I know with me, since I have sleeves on everything I'm unable to "bend" the cards together in a stack like you would in Poker.

So, although a fairly simple concept, does anyone have any really good shuffling methods between games that provide better distribution? A friend showed me a way of counting the cards out into seven or eight piles and then putting them back together, but that seems time consuming.

Anyone have any good tips of the trade to ensure you don't get landed screwed/or flooded?
At the end of the day, there is no real way to stop it from happening from time to time. 

Your shuffle is supposed to randomize your deck.  A truly randomized deck with screw/flood from time to time.

The real thing to do, is to properly balance your deck builds and utilize muligans to minimize the impact.


Note: if your friend "pile shuffles" as you describe, but does not do additional shuffles afterwards, their deck is not truly randomized.  There are ways to cheat like this, not that your friend is, but ppl do do this.   In an organized play setting, you are allowed to shuffle an opponents deck before they draw their hand, partially, if not entirely, for this reason.
:For autocarding, write [ c ] card name [ / c ] You can also do [*c=lightning bolt]'Bolt[/c*] to get 'Bolt sigged because I always forget to do it
Or, you know, you can actually accept that getting 10 lands in a row is an actually random event I know this happens to everyone on occasion, and I'm tested with numbered cards, just to see how things play out, and sometimes, you just get land wanting to be together.

I tend to think of it as String Theory in Action, and just move on.
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Now, this is obviously because a lack of properly distributing the cards evenly throughout the deck, even though we may shuffle repeatedly.


Random != evenly distributed.

There is definitely a certain knack to shuffling with sleeves. If you are using a standard sleeve shuffle like in this video, you should be fine.

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OK, I'm sure it's all happened to us. You sit down for a game of Magic and after the first or second turn, you draw ten lands in a row. Now, this is obviously because a lack of properly distributing the cards evenly throughout the deck, even though we may shuffle repeatedly. I know with me, since I have sleeves on everything I'm unable to "bend" the cards together in a stack like you would in Poker.

So, although a fairly simple concept, does anyone have any really good shuffling methods between games that provide better distribution? A friend showed me a way of counting the cards out into seven or eight piles and then putting them back together, but that seems time consuming.

Anyone have any good tips of the trade to ensure you don't get landed screwed/or flooded?



Step 1: Put your deck into five piles. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.
Step 2: Arrange them one on top of the other.
Step 3: Repeat steps 1 and 2.
Step 4: Present to opponent.
Step 5: Get DQ'd.
Step 6: Spend rest of tournament bawwwing about how you were only "randomizing" your deck when there was nothing random about it.

No, you can't use special shuffling techniques legally. Because if you want a more even distribution of lands, you're manipulating your deck to produce a non-random distribution (not counting cards that let you do that). Also known as cheating.

The best advice I have is riffle a lot. I can riffle over 60 times in the alotted time in a tournament.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
After all my games are done, I like to shuffle all the cards I use in a seperate pile.  This shuffles your lands that would normally be together.  I find doing this helps minimize land screw.

I find mash shuffling works the best.  I like to hold my cards on the table, split them in half and then push one half into the other half.  I repeat the 10 or so times until I feel comfortable.  (Basically the way that Bubba's video shows.)
Now, this is obviously because a lack of properly distributing the cards evenly throughout the deck, even though we may shuffle repeatedly.


Random != evenly distributed.

There is definitely a certain knack to shuffling with sleeves. If you are using a standard sleeve shuffle like in this video, you should be fine.



Thats how I do it but much slower to keep the corners nice. But that can lead to excessive piling, so what I do is take the second half and split it in 2 or 3 and only shuffle that much into one spot, then pile again. That way more cards get distributed evenly.

Wish I could take video but my tablet suckssssss. 
Decks I play
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Legacy TezzFinityLegacy BurnModern Infect(need to break it) T2-dead
[sblock]
57307308 wrote:
Yes, but DOES HE PEE COLOURLESS MANA?
144543765 wrote:
144018173 wrote:
Serra Angel Serra Sphinx Serra Spider Though Vigilance is a poor fit for red, so I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serra Dragon. I could see Serra Demon, though.
Black Serra creature would have vigilance and fear. It would basically be Batman.
[//sblock]
Now, this is obviously because a lack of properly distributing the cards evenly throughout the deck, even though we may shuffle repeatedly.


Random != evenly distributed.


BUT SILENTBOBUS

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

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139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
As a judge, I can't help but laugh every time there's a shuffling thread, because there's always people proclaiming that their shuffling method "minimizes mana screw" or "breaks up the land clumps" or "distributes [cards] evenly", as though deliberately shuffling your deck in such a way as to improve your draws somehow isn't cheating. Even better is when someone says something like "I'm not stacking my deck, I'm just making sure I don't get mana [screwed/flooded]!"

It's downright hilarious the mental gymnastics will people go through to avoid realizing (or having to admit to themselves) that what they're doing is, basically, trying to cheat.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I don't really know if it's fair to say that. People's intuitive understanding of randomness is wubbish.
Im just gonna go by wotc rules for a shuffle.

I'm going to cut my deck and then see if my opp wants to cut it.

After a game I will place my played and cards in hand back in a specific order and then cut my deck once then hand to opp for hem to cut.

Note I tell my opp not to put both hands on my deck for fear of someone steeling cards.
There are some slick handed ******* out there. 
Decks I play
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Legacy TezzFinityLegacy BurnModern Infect(need to break it) T2-dead
[sblock]
57307308 wrote:
Yes, but DOES HE PEE COLOURLESS MANA?
144543765 wrote:
144018173 wrote:
Serra Angel Serra Sphinx Serra Spider Though Vigilance is a poor fit for red, so I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serra Dragon. I could see Serra Demon, though.
Black Serra creature would have vigilance and fear. It would basically be Batman.
[//sblock]
Im just gonna go by wotc rules for a shuffle.

I'm going to cut my deck and then see if my opp wants to cut it.

After a game I will place my played and cards in hand back in a specific order and then cut my deck once then hand to opp for hem to cut.

Note I tell my opp not to put both hands on my deck for fear of someone steeling cards.
There are some slick handed ******* out there. 

...So you don't shuffle, and you don't let your opponents shuffle either? Just cut?

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Sure why not, according to wotc a cut is a shuffle.
Decks I play
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Legacy TezzFinityLegacy BurnModern Infect(need to break it) T2-dead
[sblock]
57307308 wrote:
Yes, but DOES HE PEE COLOURLESS MANA?
144543765 wrote:
144018173 wrote:
Serra Angel Serra Sphinx Serra Spider Though Vigilance is a poor fit for red, so I'm not sure if we'll ever see Serra Dragon. I could see Serra Demon, though.
Black Serra creature would have vigilance and fear. It would basically be Batman.
[//sblock]
a cut is a "shuffle" if the deck is already randomized
otherwise it is not

and even then, on higher REL you are required to shuffle your opponent's deck, only on lower REL is a cut acceptable
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Sure why not, according to wotc a cut is a shuffle.



(In other words, no, it's not. In case you're actually serious.)

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I don't really know if it's fair to say that. People's intuitive understanding of randomness is wubbish.



For those interested in randomness, flip a coin 1000 times, recording each result. Notice how you don't get heads-tails-heads-tails for 1000 flips? Notice how you can find long stretches of 30+ heads or 30+ tails? It's still random, but clumps occur precisely because it's random. The alternating pattern is no more or less random than getting all heads or all tails: All sequences have a one-in-21000 probability. 21000 is approximately 1.07*10301.

Now, let's put this in the context of a Magic deck. Assuming every card is unique, you have a 1 in 60! (that's 60 factorial, or 60*59*58*57...,, all the way down to 2, or approximately 8.32*1081) chance of getting the same card in time. Every card is not unique, of course (as you'll typically have four of each removal spell, four of a number of critical cards, four of each dual land, and a smattering of basic lands), reducing the possible combinations, and the order of your starting hand doesn't matter. Nor does whether you get that three-drop in the first 7 cards or card 8 (for decks with a lot of ramp) or 9 (for every other deck).

The bottom line: Randomness is funny in that it doesn't necessarily look random.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
The bottom line: Randomness is funny in that it doesn't necessarily look random.


Isn't the lack of a pattern what makes it look random?

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

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The bottom line: Randomness is funny in that it doesn't necessarily look random.


Isn't the lack of a pattern what makes it look random?


yes, but in true randomness there are plenty of small patterns, whereas our intuitive image of randomness has none. we tend to want each section of the whole to appear random, so long gluts of the same or similar numbers do not appear random to us even if we picked them at random. for instance, if I were to ask you to pick 10 digits at random, you would never pick 0123456789, but a truly random process would find that one out of every 10,000,000,000 times. similarly, you'd never pick 6666666666, 2468101214, or any number of completely plausible results that, to the pattern-seeking mind, appear predetermined.

for a real example of a bluntly non-random-looking result in a truly random sequence, take the Feynman Point. at the 762nd decimal place of pi, there are six 9s in a row. this is much sooner than one would expect a string of six identical digits to appear, but because the digits of pi are, as far as we can tell, random, unlikely events that appear to be order occur.

 
120.6. Some effects replace card draws.
because the digits of pi are, as far as we can tell, random, unlikely events that appear to be order occur.

 


The digits of pi aren't random. They are the same every time you calculate pi.
The digits of pi aren't random. They are the same every time you calculate pi.


Feel free to quote mine if you'd like, but the obvious surrounding context there was "Each digit of pi seems to have no discernable relation to the other digits near it"

Certainly if you knew ahead of time which digit was the 562nd in pi, you would always know it, but if you didn't, knowing the 560th, 561st, 563rd, and 565th digits don't help you figure out what the 562nd digit was.

@Topic: Just because everything can occur in a random distribution doesn't mean your shuffling is random regardless of the end pattern. If you have 24 lands in your deck and you shuffle and draw 15 hands in a row and alternate between 5-7 land and 0-1 land hands in every single one, it could be random chance, but much more likely it's due to human error while shuffling.

The issue with determining the randomness of your shuffling is that you can't point to any one instance as proof you're shuffling nonrandomly. Instead you have to shuffle many many many times and note patterns which occur consistently over a large number of shuffles. To do this properly will take quite a while. 
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
The digits of pi aren't random. They are the same every time you calculate pi.


Feel free to quote mine if you'd like, but the obvious surrounding context there was "Each digit of pi seems to have no discernable relation to the other digits near it"



The point is fine but the statement is still false. It's better to pick examples that actually demonstrate what you are saying, isn't it?


All of the digits have a clear and obvious relationship to one another - they are all the sequence of digits of pi. It's like saying the digits that make up the product of 17x14 are random and have no pattern. Of course they do; they are the solution to a math problem that will be the same no matter how many times you calculate it. There is nothing random about it no matter how silly the numbers might or might not look.

Pedantry is an ugly thing. It was a informal example; it's not supposed to be parsed formally.

It's better to pick examples that are clear and immediately understandable, and when surrounded by an informal context, formally constructed examples tend to obscure meaning. Far better to present an example that--while it may be slightly inaccurate under examination--is immediately grokked than one that is entirely accurate, but difficult for the reader to understand.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

The bottom line: Randomness is funny in that it doesn't necessarily look random.


Isn't the lack of a pattern what makes it look random?


Randomness both gives rise to and destroys order. Order is a thing of perception, something that randomness, as an abstract concept, is incapable of having. (I.e., abstract concepts do not perceive.)

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Isn't the lack of a pattern what makes it look random?


No. There will (probably) not be a pattern throughout the whole thing, but any sequence (Especially a longer one or one with fewer elements) will likely have several points that look like a pattern. A string of random numbers will likely include 12345 or 1212121 somewhere in it or a string of 50 characters with no 8s or something similar.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
Im just gonna go by wotc rules for a shuffle.

I'm going to cut my deck and then see if my opp wants to cut it.

After a game I will place my played and cards in hand back in a specific order and then cut my deck once then hand to opp for hem to cut.

Note I tell my opp not to put both hands on my deck for fear of someone steeling cards.
There are some slick handed ******* out there. 



The only time I actually bother to shuffle my opponents deck multiple times is if they tell me not to.

And if you actually complained, the judge will tell you that your wrong.

Both you and your opponent are expected to shuffle and that means both hands on the deck.

However; it also means both hands must stay above the table and you are well within your rights to demand that he has no other cards on the table nearby. Theft should not be possible at any point because the opponent should not be taking the cards anywhere near his cards or out of your direct view at any point. I've seen people try to shuffle in their lap, this simply isn't allowed. Also, they shouldnt at any point be able to see the face of your cards to know what they were stealing either. If they are flipping cards or bending them so badly that they can be seen, they are doing it wrong; call a judge.
I don't really know if it's fair to say that. People's intuitive understanding of randomness is wubbish.



For those interested in randomness, flip a coin 1000 times, recording each result. Notice how you don't get heads-tails-heads-tails for 1000 flips? Notice how you can find long stretches of 30+ heads or 30+ tails? It's still random, but clumps occur precisely because it's random. The alternating pattern is no more or less random than getting all heads or all tails: All sequences have a one-in-21000 probability. 21000 is approximately 1.07*10301.

Now, let's put this in the context of a Magic deck. Assuming every card is unique, you have a 1 in 60! (that's 60 factorial, or 60*59*58*57...,, all the way down to 2, or approximately 8.32*1081) chance of getting the same card in time. Every card is not unique, of course (as you'll typically have four of each removal spell, four of a number of critical cards, four of each dual land, and a smattering of basic lands), reducing the possible combinations, and the order of your starting hand doesn't matter. Nor does whether you get that three-drop in the first 7 cards or card 8 (for decks with a lot of ramp) or 9 (for every other deck).

The bottom line: Randomness is funny in that it doesn't necessarily look random.



While the core logic here is sound; there are unfortunately outside factors that come into play.

In the case of sleeved magic cards, the biggest problem I am seeing is with the lands.

Land cards over time get touched more than any other.

Assuming random distribution and same number of times drawn, all cards will have equal wear from drawing and holding in the hand; but on the field: the cards that take the most touching will inevitably be land

I'm starting to feel like the extra touches either leave traces of oils on the cards or minute scratches or some combination of the two. More often than not I am starting to see lands not just clumped, but physically sticking to one another during shuffling.

One thing Ive started doing before a match begins is taking out all the lands and mana sources, shuffling them together and if any of them seem to be sticking, I wipe them off. I than do the same for all the non mana source pile (they rarely stick by comparison). I than shuffle the two piles together and continue shuffling multiple times before presenting the deck to my opponent.

For the sake of time I wont do this after every game, only at the start of a match. I dont entirely understand why its making so many people mad. I know that pile or mana pile shuffling by itself is not acceptable; but if the purpose is to clean the cards and make sure there is no outside influence on their clumping and its followed by enough valid shuffling, I dont know why they complain.

So far the most a judge has done is watch me shuffle a couple extra times (which is fine, im not trying to cheat), but the end result is at least when i find clumps, im not finding as many and im not finding them physically stuck together like i used to

Isn't the lack of a pattern what makes it look random?


No. There will (probably) not be a pattern throughout the whole thing, but any sequence (Especially a longer one or one with fewer elements) will likely have several points that look like a pattern. A string of random numbers will likely include 12345 or 1212121 somewhere in it or a string of 50 characters with no 8s or something similar.


Okay, so, since people like quoting me and stuff. I know how randomness works. However, the way I interpret bay's post, he stated that people expected randomness to follow a pattern, like with land distribution in a deck. My remark was just to state that when people perceive something as random, it's because of their inability to see an overarching pattern.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

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