## Maneuvers that Afford Extra Attacks

15 posts / 0 new
redvers
Joined Dec 1969
So while playing with my fighter and monk PCs, I've noticed that they've been hitting creatures obnoxiously hard, multiple times. Maneuvers like "Flurry of Blows" and "Whirlwind Attack" in the current package are granting additional Complete Melee Attacks. By this I mean that instead of using the martial damage dice to do a little extra damage without modifiers, the fighter and monk are hitting at least three times in one turn at full power. The number of hits doesn't upset the balance, but a minimum of 15 damage per turn (often upwards of 20 damage in a turn) to one creature with flurry of blows is where I feel the wording of the maneuvers is broken.

Correct me if I'm wrong (really; please point out if I'm wrong), but didn't the ability to hit multiple times in a turn come at the expense of overall damage in previous packages? The additional attacks used to do damage equal to the martial damage dice spent without modifiers, where the wording on the current maneuver file tells me that it's additional attacks + relevant modifiers.

With all the discussion of player characters hitting too hard, I feel like this is a step away from balance in the game. My recomendation would be that when spending MDD to hit additional creatures/times, the damage should come only from the MDD rolled.
Toronto Dungeon Master
talamare
Joined Dec 1969
You get all your basic modifiers, but the point is that youre spending so many of your MDD on buying more attacks that the damage on each of them isnt significant

For example If I were to attack a single monster normally, I would get 1d8+3d6+STR
If I use Whirlwind attack to attack to attack 3 different monsters, then each monster would only suffer 1d8+STR damage

So yea, I will output a total damage that is higher, but since its spread out between 3 targets, it will hardly matter

Using 3 STR for the math
Single Target = avg 18 damage
Multi Target = avg 7.5 each, 22.5 total

If they convert MDD to WDD
Single Target = avg 21
Multi Target = 7.5 each, 22.5 total
Veggie-sama
Joined Dec 1969
That is true for whirlwind attack, but flurry of blows has no such "you must attack 3 different monsters" limitation. Each attack in the flurry can be directed at the same target. The end result is more damage, including a higher chance of hitting at least once, and a higher chance of scoring at least one critical hit.

Whirlwind also requires you to spend one MDD per attack, including the first attack, while Flurry grants bonus attacks for each MDD spent in addition to a normal unarmed attack. If you spend two dice, whirlwind grants two attacks, while flurry allows for three.

MDD is getting an overall so I dunno what will happen in the future, but expect both of these maneuvers to change significantly.
redvers
Joined Dec 1969
I sure hope they do. One concern about whirlwind attack is how it affects the Cleave feat, if at all.
Toronto Dungeon Master
talamare
Joined Dec 1969
I sure hope they do. One concern about whirlwind attack is how it affects the Cleave feat, if at all.

It will give you rarely small damage boost for a single turn for using incredibly timing, positioning and cleverness

You will basically need to find a monster diagonally adjacent to a low health monster, then you will trade in dealing a great hit on the healthy monster to clean up the low health monster and have a chance of hurting the big one for roughly same damage you would have dealt

Using 3 for STR
Just attacking the big = 1d8+2d6+STR = 14.5
Using Whirlwind = Big - 1d8+STR x2 = 15 // Small 1d8+STR +7.5

Tho of course, if your hit on the small doesnt kill it, then you will only deal 7.5 on the big as well

Its a solid combo, but you are spending a Manuever and a Feat on something that probably won't happen too often

knastrarn
Joined Dec 1969
I don't see the problem here, it's a maneuver, it's supposed to be useful. Personally I think it's a lot more fun not to have to rely on using the same old standard moves over and over.

And it also adds the element of luck and strategy to it, since the player will weigh in wether he wants to use multiple attacks or just one solid based on how lucky he's feeling or how important it is he lands that blow.
another_rules_lawyer
Joined Dec 1969
I think Flurry of Blows should grant full damage only against multiple targets, just like Rapid Shot, otherwise it should be treated something like Two-Weapon Fighting (Multi-Weapon Fighting?) with no attack penalty.
Mrpagoda25
Joined Dec 1969
I think Flurry of Blows should grant full damage only against multiple targets, just like Rapid Shot, otherwise it should be treated something like Two-Weapon Fighting (Multi-Weapon Fighting?) with no attack penalty.

I think Flurry of Blows is fine. It offers a little more damage at the cost of missing with your extra attacks. you still have to roll attack for each flurry.
Veggie-sama
Joined Dec 1969
There's no reason **not** to flurry.

Regular Damage:
1d6 + 3 + 2d6 (13.5 avg)

Flurry Damage:
1d6 + 3 (6.5)
1d6 + 3 (6.5)
1d6 + 3 (6.5)
Total: (19.5 avg)

And with flurry you have a higher chance of scoring at least one attack, which makes it better against low-HP enemies.
talamare
Joined Dec 1969
Yea, the only reason not to Flurry would be to use a different maneuver
lord_malkov
Joined Dec 1969
There's no reason **not** to flurry.

Regular Damage:
1d6 + 3 + 2d6 (13.5 avg)

Flurry Damage:
1d6 + 3 (6.5)
1d6 + 3 (6.5)
1d6 + 3 (6.5)
Total: (19.5 avg)

And with flurry you have a higher chance of scoring at least one attack, which makes it better against low-HP enemies.

It also gives you 3x the chance to crit, and to apply the remainder of your MDD.  Even if you miss with 2 attacks, you will be able to apply the rest of your MDD and your MDB on whichever attack hits.

If you have  a 40% hit chance on the target you will actually see a more pronounced difference.
lvl 11 monk, 18  str.  (ignoring crits)

with 40% hit chance, single attacks will average out to  14 damage per round.
with 40% hit chance and flurry, each round will average out to 26.6

This is because the bulk of damage wil be comming from MDD + MDB, and your chance to apply it goes from 40% all the way up to 78.4% so even though you are reducing the average output of these bonuses from 31 to 24 by spending 2 dice, the odds that it lands are doubled.

And your chance to crit goes from 5% to 14.26%

SO, yeah, flurry is just far and away the better option.  The balance really needs to be worked out of these sorts of things, and MDD are a  big obstacle to that.

Keendk
Joined Dec 1969
MDD in its current ittiration has already died theyve told us... we just havnt seen the next version yet.
lord_malkov
Joined Dec 1969
MDD in its current ittiration has already died theyve told us... we just havnt seen the next version yet.

The easiest fix would be to force each player to commit MDD and MDB before resolving an attack roll.  But this would still present problems.

You could also allow MDD to only refresh once per round rather than once per turn, but this trivializes reactions and destroys Parry as a class feature.

You could change MDD to WDD, but that doesn't help much at all, and MDB remains a problem.

I look forward to seeing their fix though... should be interesting.
Qmark
Joined Dec 1969
There's really no reason why "another attack" can't be a two or three dice manuever.
talamare
Joined Dec 1969
There's really no reason why "another attack" can't be a two or three dice manuever.

Because most manuevers say 'As an Action' not 'As an Attack'