The ugly truth behind "No wrong way"...

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The ugly truth is that it is a lie. A sham. A facade.

One perpetrated by those that do not wish to have to defend or support their own opinions and approaches.

It is a form of obfuscation used to readily deflect scrutiny while just as quick to be discarded to attack another for their ways.

People preach it but, as is all too often the case in reality, those that preach often do not actually practice as well. Instead, "no wrong way" is actually "my way isn't wrong" but, since they have no desire to defend it intelligently, they just invoke a feel-good cover-all statement that is quite difficult to challenge. Why? Because it has been lended, over time and through prevalent sociological constructs, a legitimacy it does not deserve. And so, their way is made sacroscant. It is made inviolable. It is allowed no scrutiny or criticism. And why? Because it can't be wrong. After all...there is "no wrong way" right?

However, when those same people see something they do not like...oh my! How quick they are to attack it. Denounce it. Tear it down. Undercut it. And not just the method...but also the practitioner. Oh yes, they are villified as sinners as well. Blasphemers even! For their way is "obviously" wrong! Their way is the way of a "bad" DM! Or is that...wrongbad?

But, you say, I thought there was no wrong way? I thought as long as the players were enjoying it it was okay? Ah, but you see, that is not the case because these poor, stupid, deluded fools enjoying this Wrongbad way are, in fact, too ignorant and dumb to realize that there is something better out there.

But, you say, that is what others have challenged the sacrosanct dogma with! That is the same test put to it! And it was dismissed as arrogant and presumptuous! It was guarded against by the holy shield of "NoWrongWay". And indeed it was.

So how is it that one wields the sword in one hand while denouncing it with the other? The answer is simple: hypocrisy. The emperor has no clothes and the pope has children born out of wedlock.

Shhh though! Shhhhh! This can't be revealed! It will anger those that have been indoctrinated! It will cause them to take up arms and bear torches!

Yes. Yes it will.

The simplest truths are the most painful to realize...the simple truth of one's behavior and how it's turning in on itself. The simple truth of becoming what one attacks.

Simply put: The grognards are not at the gate...they're manning it. The new boss same as the old boss.

They just haven't realized it yet.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

Hear, hear.  I believe that the lack of ability to discriminate is one of the major flaws of our postmodern, politically correct Western society.  It manifests in all areas of life, even Dungeons and Dragons games.

I would only disagree about the hyprocrisy a bit though.  In my experience, there truly are quite a few people who think there is no wrong way, everything's equally valid, and no, they truly can't bring themselves to disagree even when their dogma is challenged.  At least not externally.  They disagree, but they don't act on it or say so, and a huge amount of congnitive dissonance and guilt result when they can't get over the fact that they know they're right ... but it would be wrong to say so because all beliefs are equally valid.

No, sometimes there really is a right and a wrong.  Believing that something is right or wrong doesn't make you close minded, necessarily.  Just as often, it means you're a rational, thinking adult who has learned from your experiences.  Having the courage to express those beliefs doesn't make you bad.

As I've said before - damn right I'm "judgemental."  I judge things all the time.  I reserve the right to judge anything, anytime, and I also reserve the right to change my mind (which doesn't make me a hypocrite - that's what open-mindedness is).

So bottom line, if I think something is garbage, and it's a situation where my opinion is relevent and called for, I'll say it's garbage.  Or vice versa.  If someone on a message board asks about something I think is silly, I'll say it's silly.  If I think they're doing it wrong, I'll say so.  But keep in mind - I'M JUST SOME GUY ON A MESSAGE BOARD.  You're free to disregard my opinion at any time. 

(Any attempt to directly relate my rant to specific Dungeons and Dragons experiences may result in what appears to be logical flaws, but really aren't, because I'm generalizing, you see.)

(edited slightly for clarity)

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

I submit for evidence and to expose those on this board that attack others for how they choose to DM this...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

A reader will find, through this link, a veritable deluge of outright attacks on the OP. His methodology is denounced as objectively wrong. His intent is villified. Hell, his character as a person is even attacked.

Yet, there is nothing to show that he is making players unhappy. In fact, he is being a DM interested in due-diligence that is making players and potential players aware of just what sort of game he would be interested in running.

And what is wrong with that? Apparently quite a lot if you read many of the posts.

What is really wrong though? His methodology and approach disagrees with the current DMing zeitgeist...or at least the one on the boards. Therefore he HAS to be villified. He has to be made to look wrongbad. No credence can be lent to him.

Of course, there are those in the thread that do help...and they are to be commended to thinking beyond their own approach (if different) or just, in general, being willing to help a DM. They, however, are not the subject of this discussion. The discussion is limited to those unable to practice what has been so thoroughly preached.

Then again...perhaps they DO believe there are wrong ways to DM even if the players might enjoy it. Or...worse ways? But, that is just semantics isn't it? After all, something worse is "less right" and therefore "more wrong", no? Let's not get into semantics like that.

Right is right, wrong is wrong, better is better and worse is worse.

Maybe then, they actually agree with me...that there are better ways to do things. That there are better ways to DM. That there are better ways to play the game. Objectively better.

Goosebumps.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

Hear, hear.  The lack of ability to discriminate is one of the major flaws of modern society.  It manifests in all areas of life, even Dungeons and Dragons games.

I would only disagree about the hyprocrisy angle though.  In my experience, there truly are quite a few people who think there is no wrong way, everything's equally valid, and no, they truly can't bring themselves to disagree even when their dogma is challenged.  At least not externally.  They disagree, but they don't act on it or say so, and a huge amount of congnitive dissonance and guilt result when they can't get over the fact that they know they're right ... but it would be wrong to say so because all beliefs are equally valid.

No, sometimes there really is a right and a wrong.  Believing that something is right or wrong doesn't make you close minded, necessarily.  Just as often, it means you're a rational, thinking adult who has learned from your experiences.  Having the courage to express those beliefs doesn't make you bad.

As I've said before - damn right I'm "judgemental."  I judge things all the time.  I reserve the right to judge anything, anytime, and I also reserve the right to change my mind (which doesn't make me a hypocrite - that's what open-mindedness is).

(Any attempt to directly relate my rant to specific Dungeons and Dragons experiences may result in what appears to be logical flaws, but really aren't, because I'm generalizing, you see.) 



Oh you are so very right! Changing one's mind is the fundamental act of learning, after all!

And what better block to learning is there than a statement that stops all challenges of dogma? After all, if the church says the world is flat, well that's the word of god so it must be right. So if the zeitgeist says there is no wrong way...well then it must be right. Right? Hmm.

The cognitive dissonance angle is a brilliant insight as well. And so, in some cases, what one preaches is what they practice...but not what they believe in their gut. What a mind-job that must do to them. Must eat them up inside to have to bite their tongue to uphold their dogma.

So it seems you might be saying there are those that are hypocritical...and those that struggled with crisis of faith?

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

So it seems you might be saying there are those that are hypocritical...and those that struggled with crisis of faith?

Yeah, I guess so.  Some folks say one thing, and do another, not realizing they're contradicting their own beliefs.  Perhaps because they don't take the time to question and examine what their beliefs really are?  Some folks do this on purpose, for nefarious reasons or even for good, helpful reasons.  Regardless, this results in what we often call "hypocrisy." 

Some folks say one thing and do their best to live that way, but really believe something else.  This is really lying to yourself and is where you get into the cognitive dissonance and feelings of guilt.

Some folks don't know what to believe.  There can be a lot of reasons for this, but I guess this is what we call a spiritual crisis or crisis of faith.

And then you have a few folks who have examined their beliefs and feel that they have reached a point where they can get off the fence and come to a conclusion about their belief system, and they do their best to act on it.  But this isn't the end either.  Over time, they will continue to take stock, reexamine things, and perhaps continue to change (grow?) as time goes on.

All of this sounds esoteric, but it really isn't.  Nothing could be more natural.  We all fit into one or more of these categories at different times of our lives.

For myself, relating to D&D, I came to the conclusion a few years back with the advent of 4e that this is the kind of game I've always wanted to play.  It gave me permission to be as gamist as I wanted instead of feeling obligated to be simulationist or more narrative.  The unfortunate part is that I always had that permission; it's just that it took 4e to show it to me, and that's why right now it's my favorite version of D&D.  I like games with detailed tactical rules.  I like games that foster cooperation in the party.  I like being in a party where everyone has a role that can contribute somewhat equally and people don't feel left out.  I like a game that allows me to be light on roleplay if I want it to be (and I usually want it to be).  I like games where the referee is a referee and also a fellow player, and not a dictator.

Furthermore, now when I play with others, I feel better about expressing my desires for the playstyle I prefer and I don't feel obligated anymore to play with groups that don't have the playstyle I prefer.  The best part of all this is that when I actually unapologetically and bravely proselytize or promote my preferred playstyle, I find that there are lots of other folks who feel the same way, so I have more potential people to play with than I ever have before.  That's a good thing.  And it's all because I didn't lie to myself or compromise on the type of game I wanted to play. 

In other words, I allowed myself to believe there was a right and wrong way to play D&D.  I've seen, in real terms, how well my preferences work out when put into practice, (example:  how long a campaign holds together) and how things don't work as well in games that don't have those elements I prefer (example:  DM vs. Player arguments).  In other words, I know that my preferences have real validity in terms of how well they work in games.


OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

So it seems you might be saying there are those that are hypocritical...and those that struggled with crisis of faith?

Yeah, I guess so.  Some folks say one thing, and do another, not realizing they're contradicting their own beliefs.  Perhaps because they don't take the time to question and examine what their beliefs really are?  Some folks do this on purpose, for nefarious reasons or even for good, helpful reasons.  Regardless, this results in what we often call "hypocrisy." 

Some folks say one thing and do their best to live that way, but really believe something else.  This is really lying to yourself and is where you get into the cognitive dissonance and feelings of guilt.

Some folks don't know what to believe.  There can be a lot of reasons for this, but I guess this is what we call a spiritual crisis or crisis of faith.

And then you have a few folks who have examined their beliefs and feel that they have reached a point where they can get off the fence and come to a conclusion about their belief system, and they do their best to act on it.  But this isn't the end either.  Over time, they will continue to take stock, reexamine things, and perhaps continue to change (grow?) as time goes on.

All of this sounds esoteric, but it really isn't.  Nothing could be more natural.  We all fit into one or more of these categories at different times of our lives.

For myself, relating to D&D, I came to the conclusion a few years back with the advent of 4e that this is the kind of game I've always wanted to play.  It gave me permission to be as gamist as I wanted instead of feeling obligated to be simulationist or more narrative.  The unfortunate part is that I always had that permission; it's just that it took 4e to show it to me, and that's why right now it's my favorite version of D&D.  I like games with detailed tactical rules.  I like games that foster cooperation in the party.  I like being in a party where everyone has a role that can contribute somewhat equally and people don't feel left out.  I like a game that allows me to be light on roleplay if I want it to be (and I usually want it to be).  I like games where the referee is a referee and also a fellow player, and not a dictator.

Furthermore, now when I play with others, I feel better about expressing my desires for the playstyle I prefer and I don't feel obligated anymore to play with groups that don't have the playstyle I prefer.  The best part of all this is that when I actually unapologetically and bravely proselytize or promote my preferred playstyle, I find that there are lots of other folks who feel the same way, so I have more potential people to play with than I ever have before.  That's a good thing.  And it's all because I didn't lie to myself or compromise on the type of game I wanted to play. 

In other words, I allowed myself to believe there was a right and wrong way to play D&D.  I've seen, in real terms, how well my preferences work out when put into practice, (example:  how long a campaign holds together) and how things don't work as well in games that don't have those elements I prefer (example:  DM vs. Player arguments).  In other words, I know that my preferences have real validity in terms of how well they work in games.





Exceptionally well said.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

Let me get this out right away...In the linked thread, if you read it all, you will see that Yagami and I got into a side argument.  In my opinion, it was a misunderstanding on both our parts.  I am not going to delve any further into that aspect.

Now that being out of the way...

In my opinion,"no wrong way..." needs to be extended to "no wrong way, so long as you can find others who buy in to your style."  If NO ONE buys in, then what?  Is the DM/player still right?

 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Are you really "entitled to your opinion"?
RedSiegfried wrote:
The cool thing is, you don't even NEED a reason to say yes.  Just stop looking for a reason to say no.
I'll agree.

I attack methods that don't agree with my own. Doesn't make the other side flat out wrong though.

I'm just vehmently volatile over methods that I find to be different. In other words, take my words with a spoon full of salt, and you should be okay. ;)

Also, I'm mostly just more concerned with math in the linked topic. The numbers add up and they're not exactly in favor of a good time, IMO.

Perhaps the players like it that way, perhaps they don't. But I'm just stating the obvious.

Also, any method that doesn't agree with mine, is obviously and clearly an attack on my own. Haven't you figured that out by now Yagami? 
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
Let me get this out right away...In the linked thread, if you read it all, you will see that Yagami and I got into a side argument.  In my opinion, it was a misunderstanding on both our parts.  I am not going to delve any further into that aspect.

Now that being out of the way...

In my opinion,"no wrong way..." needs to be extended to "no wrong way, so long as you can find others who buy in to your style."  If NO ONE buys in, then what?  Is the DM/player still right?



DaBeerds, that is why I dropped that line of discussion with you when  you requested me do so because I believed you were correct. It was cool of you to call it so as to make sure we didn't get needlessly side-tracked talking around each other.

I counter that "no wrong way..." instead of being extended just needs to be dropped. Even extending it just makes it more of a "self-evident" statement that really communicates nothing other than "You're wrong unless people think you're right" which really need not be said.

These maxims and truisms need to go the way of the dodo. They're holding us back.

I will also challenge another thing...if MANY buy in, what? Is the DM/player automatically right? Does group concensus determine what is better/worse or right/wrong? And by "group" I mean the current group-think of D&D as a community. Does what it has come to embrace make the current zeitgeist the most valid? Or simply the most repeated?

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

I'll agree.

I attack methods that don't agree with my own. Doesn't make the other side flat out wrong though.

I'm just vehmently volatile over methods that I find to be different. In other words, take my words with a spoon full of salt, and you should be okay. ;)

Also, I'm mostly just more concerned with math in the linked topic. The numbers add up and they're not exactly in favor of a good time, IMO.

Perhaps the players like it that way, perhaps they don't. But I'm just stating the obvious.

Also, any method that doesn't agree with mine, is obviously and clearly an attack on my own. Haven't you figured that out by now Yagami? 



There goes Lunar, trying to up everyone's sodium intake!

Besides, at this point, don't I also already fully know you're crazy? Y'know...like me?

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

Things can better better or worse (especially subjectively) without the one being right and the other being wrong.

So you can have a "there is no wrong way to play attitude" and still attack other views as long the purpose of your attack is to point out inconsistancies and giving constructive advice on different methods of and with the caviat "but if it works for you and your players, continue to have a blast." Generally the method isn't working for the person in question, otherwise they wouldn't post a question about it on the forums.

A person who posts "this is the way that I play and there is no reason to play any other way because my way is the best" is just attention-seeking.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Things can better better or worse (especially subjectively) without the one being right and the other being wrong.

So you can have a "there is no wrong way to play attitude" and still attack other views as long the purpose of your attack is to point out inconsistancies and giving constructive advice on different methods of and with the caviat "but if it works for you and your players, continue to have a blast." Generally the method isn't working for the person in question, otherwise they wouldn't post a question about it on the forums.

A person who posts "this is the way that I play and there is no reason to play any other way because my way is the best" is just attention-seeking.



And what of those whose replies to threads are little more than derailing attempts that fail to answer the question by, instead, proposing that the person restructure their entire approach to the game? Is this not also attention-seeking? Even if well-meaning, is it not presumption on the part of the person replying that their methodology is superior and should be adopted?

Also, what if your attack does not do any of what you have said. What if it simply decries the different method and, indeed, villifies the person trying to use it while insulting those that might enjoy it as players?

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

So your issue is less with the theory itself and more about hypocrisy and the theory being used as an excuse for less savoury activities?

Reminds me somewhat of communisim. It works in theory but is almost impossible in practice. When used it is more often used as a cover for someone to do something else but not admitting to it (hence a communist dictatorship).
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein

There is no wrong way to play


Why


Because the DMG says you can change the rules if you want.


That being said, there are BETTER and WORSE ways to play; but that is an Opinion, which is what this comes down to, if you post something wanting people’s ideas/methods you are really just asking for people’s opinions; and on these boards you sure will get them.


If you can’t stand the heat, don’t light the fire, this is the internet, there are always going to be people who are of strong opinions and will voice that opinion regardless if it is done tactfully or is even necessary.


I don’t think there is a wrong way to play; but I do as a player and DM NOT LIKE the methods some people use; and if asked what I think about it I will speak my mind; that doesn’t mean I’m a hypocrite It means I just don’t like that persons Opinion and think they should follow what my Opinion is of better DMing.
I understand what you'r trying to get across YagamiFire; but in the end it's just blowing steam, we are on the Internet and muse abide by it's rules sadly; which means dealing with idiots/trolls/jerks/ and yes more often then not, hypocrites

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg)

There is one wrong way to play. If either you or the players are not enjoying a game that you know you could enjoy you're doing it wrong. But as long as everyong at the table is having fun, you're doing it right. You might be able to do better, but you're still doing it right.

"Encouraging your players to be cautious and risk-averse prevents unexpected epic events and-well-progress at a decent pace in general."-Detoxifier

"HOT SINGLES IN YOUR AREA NOT REGENERATING DUE TO FIRE" -iserith 

"If snapping a dragon's neck with your bare hands is playind D&D wrong, then I don't want to play D&D right." -Lord_Ventnor

"There is no wrong way to play" is both truthful and a fallacy at the same time.

It is truthful in that if everyone involved is enjoying it and agrees with this method of playing, then there is no "wrong way"

The fallacy lies in the assumption that this method of playing can be  imposed on others. In which case it can be "the wrong way" to play for others. And often what happens is a way of playing the game is presented to others, on "this is how I am going to run my game" and the response is that it is the wrong way based upon how it will effect the players who are victimized by that method.

If everyone isn't in agreement and some aren't enjoying the game, then it is the wrong way to play.

If you are suggesting a way to play and most people are against it, because they know that not everyone will enjoy it or agree with it (ie it works for that group, but doesn't work for 99.999% of anyone else) then in general it is the wrong way to play. It might be right to an individual or group of individuals , but wrong in general to force it on others.  
"There is no wrong way to play," is not an attempt to state an empirical truth.  It is an attempt to defeat the pointless argumentation that any suggestion of alternate ways to play equates to an attempt at coercing conformity.  It too often fails at that because there are far too many people on teh internets who SEEK OUT every possible means of misconstruing statements in order to take insult thereby and play the victim.  Too many people also continue to LET this happen.  The procedures and expectations for FORMAL debate and scientific process are relentlessly abused and misapplied to INFORMAL conversation on a forum.

It is an error to attempt to hold this simple phrase to standards for which it was NOT intended.  I play enough D&D to be able to draw distinctions between how I prefer to play the game and how I prefer NOT to play the game.  There is, for me, therefore right and wrong ways to play.  It is NOT an attempt to insult others or coerce their agreement with my opinions simply to VOICE that opinion that there is a right and wrong way.  Others have comparable opinion as to right and wrong ways to play, which is to say that they don't necessarily AGREE with mine, just that they too have preferences and aversions and thus conclusions about right and wrong ways to play.  But these are personal opinions, and again, simply stating those conclusions does not equate to insult or coercion.

The statement of "There is no wrong way to play" is thus an inefficient and only partially effective means of stating in fewer words that we all have opinions (as noted), those opinions will vary, and that people should stop being jerks about those opinions being put forth.  I don't see a need to press it any further than that and certainly not to follow with accusations of hypocrisy for even using it.

Old School: It ain't what you play - it's how you play it.

My 1E Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/Building%20D&D/buildingdnd.htm

"Who says I can't?" "The man in the funny hat..."

"There is no wrong way to play," is not an attempt to state an empirical truth.  It is an attempt to defeat the pointless argumentation that any suggestion of alternate ways to play equates to an attempt at coercing conformity.  It too often fails at that because there are far too many people on teh internets who SEEK OUT every possible means of misconstruing statements in order to take insult thereby and play the victim.  Too many people also continue to LET this happen.  The procedures and expectations for FORMAL debate and scientific process are relentlessly abused and misapplied to INFORMAL conversation on a forum.

It is an error to attempt to hold this simple phrase to standards for which it was NOT intended.  I play enough D&D to be able to draw distinctions between how I prefer to play the game and how I prefer NOT to play the game.  There is, for me, therefore right and wrong ways to play.  It is NOT an attempt to insult others or coerce their agreement with my opinions simply to VOICE that opinion that there is a right and wrong way.  Others have comparable opinion as to right and wrong ways to play, which is to say that they don't necessarily AGREE with mine, just that they too have preferences and aversions and thus conclusions about right and wrong ways to play.  But these are personal opinions, and again, simply stating those conclusions does not equate to insult or coercion.

The statement of "There is no wrong way to play" is thus an inefficient and only partially effective means of stating in fewer words that we all have opinions (as noted), those opinions will vary, and that people should stop being jerks about those opinions being put forth.  I don't see a need to press it any further than that and certainly not to follow with accusations of hypocrisy for even using it.



Well said.  +1
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

There is one wrong way to play. If either you or the players are not enjoying a game that you know you could enjoy you're doing it wrong. But as long as everyong at the table is having fun, you're doing it right. You might be able to do better, but you're still doing it right.



"There is no wrong way to play" is both truthful and a fallacy at the same time.

It is truthful in that if everyone involved is enjoying it and agrees with this method of playing, then there is no "wrong way"

The fallacy lies in the assumption that this method of playing can be  imposed on others. In which case it can be "the wrong way" to play for others. And often what happens is a way of playing the game is presented to others, on "this is how I am going to run my game" and the response is that it is the wrong way based upon how it will effect the players who are victimized by that method.

If everyone isn't in agreement and some aren't enjoying the game, then it is the wrong way to play.

If you are suggesting a way to play and most people are against it, because they know that not everyone will enjoy it or agree with it (ie it works for that group, but doesn't work for 99.999% of anyone else) then in general it is the wrong way to play. It might be right to an individual or group of individuals , but wrong in general to force it on others.  


Kugnar, MrCustomer, +1
So your issue is less with the theory itself and more about hypocrisy and the theory being used as an excuse for less savoury activities?

No, I think he's contestng the theory itself.  The hypocrisy of the way it is used seems to be the worst symptom of the greater issue.  At least that's how I read him.

Reminds me somewhat of communisim. It works in theory but is almost impossible in practice. When used it is more often used as a cover for someone to do something else but not admitting to it (hence a communist dictatorship).


Bad example.  Communism doesn't even work "in theory".  Namely because a Perfect Communistic Society would never function with human beings.  Humans are innately driven by self-interest.  We don't do anything, not get off the couch, open our mouths or lift a finger, unless there is benefit to us, even if that benefit is "I like making people happy, it makes me happy".  There's also Enlightened Self-Interest, in which we help others seemingly selflessly, because we are benefited tangenitally by the result.  But the point is, even if you could create a Perfectly Communistic State (and not a cover for totalitarianism), it would not function.  If I can be a burger-flipper and live in the same house, drive the same car, and have all the same accoutrements as Brain Surgeon Bob, what is my motivation to do more than the bare minimum?  There would be no incentive for technological and societal advancement.
Granted, there are people out there who are truly selfless enough that those individuals could be in such a society, but by and large, they are in the minority.  Communism works great with Ants, Bees, and other creatures ith a Hive Mentality, but humans just don't have that kind of scope.
Even "in theory" Communism only works if Human Nature were radically different than it is.  Karl Marx's ideals about human nature were far higher than the dim reality.
There is one wrong way to play. If either you or the players are not enjoying a game that you know you could enjoy you're doing it wrong. But as long as everyong at the table is having fun, you're doing it right. You might be able to do better, but you're still doing it right.



"There is no wrong way to play" is both truthful and a fallacy at the same time.

It is truthful in that if everyone involved is enjoying it and agrees with this method of playing, then there is no "wrong way"

The fallacy lies in the assumption that this method of playing can be  imposed on others. In which case it can be "the wrong way" to play for others. And often what happens is a way of playing the game is presented to others, on "this is how I am going to run my game" and the response is that it is the wrong way based upon how it will effect the players who are victimized by that method.

If everyone isn't in agreement and some aren't enjoying the game, then it is the wrong way to play.

If you are suggesting a way to play and most people are against it, because they know that not everyone will enjoy it or agree with it (ie it works for that group, but doesn't work for 99.999% of anyone else) then in general it is the wrong way to play. It might be right to an individual or group of individuals , but wrong in general to force it on others.  


Kugnar, MrCustomer, +1
So your issue is less with the theory itself and more about hypocrisy and the theory being used as an excuse for less savoury activities?

No, I think he's contestng the theory itself.  The hypocrisy of the way it is used seems to be the worst symptom of the greater issue.  At least that's how I read him.

Reminds me somewhat of communisim. It works in theory but is almost impossible in practice. When used it is more often used as a cover for someone to do something else but not admitting to it (hence a communist dictatorship).


Bad example.  Communism doesn't even work "in theory".  Namely because a Perfect Communistic Society would never function with human beings.  Humans are innately driven by self-interest.  We don't do anything, not get off the couch, open our mouths or lift a finger, unless there is benefit to us, even if that benefit is "I like making people happy, it makes me happy".  There's also Enlightened Self-Interest, in which we help others seemingly selflessly, because we are benefited tangenitally by the result.  But the point is, even if you could create a Perfectly Communistic State (and not a cover for totalitarianism), it would not function.  If I can be a burger-flipper and live in the same house, drive the same car, and have all the same accoutrements as Brain Surgeon Bob, what is my motivation to do more than the bare minimum?  There would be no incentive for technological and societal advancement.
Granted, there are people out there who are truly selfless enough that those individuals could be in such a society, but by and large, they are in the minority.  Communism works great with Ants, Bees, and other creatures ith a Hive Mentality, but humans just don't have that kind of scope.
Even "in theory" Communism only works if Human Nature were radically different than it is.  Karl Marx's ideals about human nature were far higher than the dim reality. 



As with most things, Chiba has nailed it.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

I've removed content from this thread. Baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct

Please remember to keep your posts on topic and refrain from making personal remarks or attacks.  
 

As with most things, Chiba has nailed it.


Regrettably, however, Yagami, I do not agree with you.
Oh, I'll agree with the hypocrisy bit, that irks me as much as it does you, but I will not agree that there is "no wrong way".
I agree with Kugnar and MrCustomer 100%.  If Gaming Group A plays strictly by RAW, and Gaming Group B plays by a bunch of houserules (let's say they're playing 3.5, with alignment mechanics removed, a houseruled system for critical hits/misses, and some kind of standing rule about deity intervention that means PCs basically never die), is Group B "playing the wrong way"?  For the sake of argument, let's assume both groups are made up entirely of people who have been playing the game for at least a few years, and every member of each group enjoys the way the game is run and has fun, and prefers the method of their group over the way the other group is done.  So no one's freedom or choices are being impuned, and everyone's totally happy with their DM and their group.  Can you still say Group B is "wrong"?
If you were to try and make an unequicovable stance of "there is a right and a wrong way to play D&D", then you need to define what "right" and "wrong" meana in your thesis.  Those are value-charged words, and each of us might have their own opinion on what is "right" and "wrong" for a game of D&D.  Remember the "soft railroading" discussion?  As I said there, the only ethics that matter to me as a DM are aesthetic ones, which is judged by my players.  So, to me, the only "wrong" way to play D&D is one in which the players at the table aren't enjoying the game.  So I would consider a DM who is otherwise a stickler for RAW, but "hard railroads" his players into a plotline they arent interested in to be "worse" than a DM who plays the rules kind of fast and loose, a "hippie love-fest", as you've called it ;), but the players enjoy the game.  Now, my personal way to play sticks very close to the RAW, but I don't inherently de-value another's method, as long as it's best for them and their players.  Because that's how I equate "right" and "wrong" in running a game of D&D.
So I guess what I'm getting at here, if there is, in fact a "wrong" way to play-as you claim-then what, pray tell, is the "right" way? 
Yar, thar be orcs! Everyone, roll initiative!
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
I would quibble about the functioning of communism in very small groups, but this is not the place for it.

I pretty much think that most people (except Yagami) are on pretty much the same wavelength. 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
I would quibble about the functioning of communism in very small groups, but this is not the place for it.

Sorry, BA in History, mostly focused on 20th century History and Foreign Policy, spent a lot of time on Soviet Russia and Communist China, it bubbles out from time to time when I see stuff like that, lol.

I pretty much think that most people (except Yagami) are on pretty much the same wavelength. 


I think he's fine with that, honestly.
The only wavelength I'm on says you guys haven't rolled initiative yet and are now flatfooted during the surprise round. I'll let you know if the Orc dealt damage later.
My username should actually read: Lunar Savage (damn you WotC!) *Tips top hat, adjusts monocle, and walks away with cane* and yes, that IS Mr. Peanut laying unconscious on the curb. http://asylumjournals.tumblr.com/
It's fine. 

When Tao_Alexis said this about me: "You get what you earn, Fardiz.  You've made a fine show of dismissing most everything I've said or most everything Yagami has said.  You've obfuscated, side-stepped, reinterpreted, redefined, inserted arguments and straw men into your replies and done your outstanding best to justify your position with the the worst sort of rhetoric.  Which, it is plainly clear, you will continue doing."

As a law student, I took it as a compliment. We all use our own backgrounds to put a different slant on the game. 
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
It's fine. 

When Tao_Alexis said this about me: "You get what you earn, Fardiz.  You've made a fine show of dismissing most everything I've said or most everything Yagami has said.  You've obfuscated, side-stepped, reinterpreted, redefined, inserted arguments and straw men into your replies and done your outstanding best to justify your position with the the worst sort of rhetoric.  Which, it is plainly clear, you will continue doing."

As a law student, I took it as a compliment. We all use our own backgrounds to put a different slant on the game. 



oh yes.. that.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Let me fix my hypocrisy to appease the great Yagami.

There are wrong ways to play.

The OP in your linked thread was engaging in umpteen of them, started a thread about it, asked for advice, and then flatly denied it when it was given.

And this is what, the third of fourth thread you've started on this topic alone.

There are wrong ways to play.

You are playing incorrectly if your game involves:
Taking the game in a direction (either plot/story-wise, or mechanically) that the entire group is not on board with.

Note: you can disagree with the direction and still be on board.

 

As with most things, Chiba has nailed it.


Regrettably, however, Yagami, I do not agree with you.
Oh, I'll agree with the hypocrisy bit, that irks me as much as it does you, but I will not agree that there is "no wrong way".
I agree with Kugnar and MrCustomer 100%.  If Gaming Group A plays strictly by RAW, and Gaming Group B plays by a bunch of houserules (let's say they're playing 3.5, with alignment mechanics removed, a houseruled system for critical hits/misses, and some kind of standing rule about deity intervention that means PCs basically never die), is Group B "playing the wrong way"?  For the sake of argument, let's assume both groups are made up entirely of people who have been playing the game for at least a few years, and every member of each group enjoys the way the game is run and has fun, and prefers the method of their group over the way the other group is done.  So no one's freedom or choices are being impuned, and everyone's totally happy with their DM and their group.  Can you still say Group B is "wrong"?
If you were to try and make an unequicovable stance of "there is a right and a wrong way to play D&D", then you need to define what "right" and "wrong" meana in your thesis.  Those are value-charged words, and each of us might have their own opinion on what is "right" and "wrong" for a game of D&D.  Remember the "soft railroading" discussion?  As I said there, the only ethics that matter to me as a DM are aesthetic ones, which is judged by my players.  So, to me, the only "wrong" way to play D&D is one in which the players at the table aren't enjoying the game.  So I would consider a DM who is otherwise a stickler for RAW, but "hard railroads" his players into a plotline they arent interested in to be "worse" than a DM who plays the rules kind of fast and loose, a "hippie love-fest", as you've called it ;), but the players enjoy the game.  Now, my personal way to play sticks very close to the RAW, but I don't inherently de-value another's method, as long as it's best for them and their players.  Because that's how I equate "right" and "wrong" in running a game of D&D.
So I guess what I'm getting at here, if there is, in fact a "wrong" way to play-as you claim-then what, pray tell, is the "right" way? 



As an initial question...what makes you think I put an importance on RAW? I've noticed this a couple times...people, for some reason, seem to think I put some kind of focus/importance/emphasis on the games RAW.

I've never played a single game of D&D RAW.

So...moving on?

As for your question...the right way? "Right" is a silly term. I will gladly answer what the best way to DM is, however...the best way to DM is the manner in which the weight and importance of player choice is maintained as the single most important focus of the DM. The best way to DM is to do so in a fair, consistent manner that maintains, respects and reinforces player agency as much as possible up to and including entirely. Since doing this completely is something of an impossibility (being humans and all), striving towards it when possible then becomes the best approach. In other words, as achievement nears perfection, effort & thought begins to increase towards infinity...making the end point of perfection impossible but ever-closer.

When one embraces that methodology it also makes it possible to discuss ways in which to come closer to the actual goal (complete player agency). Again a goal that realistically cannot be achieved, but should be pursued none-the-less.

Anyone doing less, whether knowingly or unknowingly, is not DMing to the best of their own ability...to the best of the games ability. Can this be innocent? Yes. Can it be well-meaning? Yes. Is that just as dangerous as those doing it maliciously? Yes, and in some ways, maybe more so.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

Let me fix my hypocrisy to appease the great Yagami.



I also accept sacrifices of starburst & rolex watches. Make sure to keep that in mind too.

There are wrong ways to play.

The OP in your linked thread was engaging in umpteen of them, started a thread about it, asked for advice, and then flatly denied it when it was given.



Flatly untrue as he clarified his stance when possible (Despite struggle with language difficulties he acknowledged) and even revised his opinions and outright stated he was taking notes to try to improve what he was doing. So...wrong.

And this is what, the third of fourth thread you've started on this topic alone.



Oh? Flatly untrue. Please post links to at least three. Otherwise you're wrong. And lying.

There are wrong ways to play.

You are playing incorrectly if your game involves:
Taking the game in a direction (either plot/story-wise, or mechanically) that the entire group is not on board with.

Note: you can disagree with the direction and still be on board.




Insufficient information. Insufficient qualification.

By this definition, if one person is being repeatedly difficult regarding the game, it's direction or it's mechanics, the fault lay entirely with the other players as they are now "playing incorrectly".

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

Threads by you about how people should/shouldnt run their games:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

As for the rest of what I wrote, you are being purposefully obtuse and attempting to pass it off as legalistic argumentation.

It is obvious you and I do not see eye-to-eye on DM'ing. I'm fine with that. I'm moving on.
There one more group, one more side you forgot to mention. 

The group that doesn't care about what way is wrong or right.

When I go in a debate thread, I always play the bad guy.
I will join the side that is losing and try to continue the debate.

I don't care who way is right or wrong, just watching you guys debate entertain me. 

 
"There is no wrong way to play" means, and on here has always stood in for the following logical argument:

 1. The correctness of play is based on the amount of fun had in it.
 2. People have fun in a myraid of different (and contradictory) ways
 3. Therefore the fun of the game can be determined only subjectively
 4. Only the "fun" of the game can determine it's correctness (no other metric makes sense) therefore it's correctness is always subjective
 5. If it's correctness is always subjective, there can be no objective measure
 6. Since there's no objective measure, there's no objective right/wrong
 7. hence "There is no objectively wrong way to play"
 8.  shorthand to "There is no wrong way to play"

it's false by technicality: a wrong way to play is a way your group does not enjoy, however the context of defending a method of play implies the additional premise "we are enjoying this method" which renders it's technical falsity moot.

Can you discuss the merits of a method of play? sure- but when you start to make assertions about an objective standard, you ignore the differences in taste, and offer a subjective position as objective- and effectively attack the tastes and prefrences of others by attempting to undermine the subject's ownership of their subjective opinion, and enforce a substitution of your position (by labeling it fact, implying that it's truth ought to be aknowledged and dominant) or in other words: impose it on them.

So... we done here?

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/8.jpg)

But as long as everyong at the table is having fun, you're doing it right. You might be able to do better, but you're still doing it right.



That's pretty much the point of the thread though.  If you tell someone you're doing it right, then that doesn't invite the DM to try and improve.

As with most of Yagami's threads, this comes down to a quibble over language.  What everyone really means to say is "As long as everyone at the table is having fun, you're doing it WELL, but you can always do better," and he wants everyone to realize this.  Yagami would argue that due to our imprecise language, we are encouraging DMs to grow stale and stop improving.  I would argue that anyone who is willing to improve themselves will not be stopped by such minor changes in language.

Feel free to correct me if I've stated your views incorrectly, Yagami.
Threads by you about how people should/shouldnt run their games:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

As for the rest of what I wrote, you are being purposefully obtuse and attempting to pass it off as legalistic argumentation.

It is obvious you and I do not see eye-to-eye on DM'ing. I'm fine with that. I'm moving on.



Request links. Get unrelated ones. Surprise? None.

If your truism doesn't hold up under a modicum of scrutiny, don't try to pass it off as a good answer...or be willing to expand. That's what's being asked.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

But as long as everyong at the table is having fun, you're doing it right. You might be able to do better, but you're still doing it right.



That's pretty much the point of the thread though.  If you tell someone you're doing it right, then that doesn't invite the DM to try and improve.

As with most of Yagami's threads, this comes down to a quibble over language.  What everyone really means to say is "As long as everyone at the table is having fun, you're doing it WELL, but you can always do better," and he wants everyone to realize this.  Yagami would argue that due to our imprecise language, we are encouraging DMs to grow stale and stop improving.  I would argue that anyone who is willing to improve themselves will not be stopped by such minor changes in language.

Feel free to correct me if I've stated your views incorrectly, Yagami.



This is fairly correct. However, the larger point at hand is that it does no favors to anyone to constantly spout that there is "no wrong way" then to attack a poster that happens to play a different way. A way, again mind you, that is being openly put on display and put "out there" with no attempt at obfuscation...the person was looking for feedback and mostly got attacked. His style was objectively being villified when, apparently, the concensus is that DMing and gameplay quality is purely subjective.

Those two things are mutually exclusive.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.

"There is no wrong way to play" means, and on here has always stood in for the following logical argument:

 1. The correctness of play is based on the amount of fun had in it.
 2. People have fun in a myraid of different (and contradictory) ways
 3. Therefore the fun of the game can be determined only subjectively
 4. Only the "fun" of the game can determine it's correctness (no other metric makes sense) therefore it's correctness is always subjective
 5. If it's correctness is always subjective, there can be no objective measure
 6. Since there's no objective measure, there's no objective right/wrong
 7. hence "There is no objectively wrong way to play"
 8.  shorthand to "There is no wrong way to play"

it's false by technicality: a wrong way to play is a way your group does not enjoy, however the context of defending a method of play implies the additional premise "we are enjoying this method" which renders it's technical falsity moot.

Can you discuss the merits of a method of play? sure- but when you start to make assertions about an objective standard, you ignore the differences in taste, and offer a subjective position as objective- and effectively attack the tastes and prefrences of others by attempting to undermine the subject's ownership of their subjective opinion, and enforce a substitution of your position (by labeling it fact, implying that it's truth ought to be aknowledged and dominant) or in other words: impose it on them.

So... we done here?


Excellent post, TMW.  I think that sums things up nicely.

Threads by you about how people should/shouldnt run their games:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

As for the rest of what I wrote, you are being purposefully obtuse and attempting to pass it off as legalistic argumentation.

It is obvious you and I do not see eye-to-eye on DM'ing. I'm fine with that. I'm moving on.



Request links. Get unrelated ones. Surprise? None.

If your truism doesn't hold up under a modicum of scrutiny, don't try to pass it off as a good answer...or be willing to expand. That's what's being asked.


The threads were related, especially the one about "the fallacy of fun", which is directly linked to the idea of "there's no wrong way to play".  The others are related only in that his thesis is that you are "telling people how to play" (which, incidentaly, is something I especially agree with in regards to the "false options and the railroad" thread).  If one says "this is the 5th thread you've started on the subject of telling people they're playing it wrong", then those 4 links and this thread DO kind of build a strong case.

Don't get me wrong, Yagami, I like you.  But he does have a point.  You DO kind of come across that way in those threads.

Perception.  It counts. 

Once again;


The DMG says you can change the rules if you want.


Thus there can be no Right or Wrong way;the DMG has already givin you the thumbs up to RAI Anything as well as the thumbs up to Change Anything you want about the game.
 

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/1.jpg)


Once again;


The DMG says you can change the rules if you want.


Thus there can be no Right or Wrong way;the DMG has already givin you the thumbs up to RAI Anything as well as the thumbs up to Change Anything you want about the game.
 




Seriously, what is everyone's obsession with the rules having to do something (anything) with what I'm saying? Second time I'm asking this by the way.

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.


The threads were related, especially the one about "the fallacy of fun", which is directly linked to the idea of "there's no wrong way to play".  The others are related only in that his thesis is that you are "telling people how to play" (which, incidentaly, is something I especially agree with in regards to the "false options and the railroad" thread).  If one says "this is the 5th thread you've started on the subject of telling people they're playing it wrong", then those 4 links and this thread DO kind of build a strong case.

Don't get me wrong, Yagami, I like you.  But he does have a point.  You DO kind of come across that way in those threads.

Perception.  It counts. 



The fallacy of fun has NOTHING to do with how someone plays. Nothing. It is entirely about discussing mechanics for the game and how best to understand the game itself. That people still don't understand that is, frankly, baffling...though I also believe in many cases it's also willful. The fallacy of fun thread is about how we are being held back by a poor understanding of the mechanical portion of the game and how there is a difference between what the game & it's mechanics cooperate together to create as a point and the physical act of sitting down to play D&D. These are two seperate things but they get conflated together in a way that makes actual, productive discussion of the mechanical side of the game and it's reward systems/progression structure nearly impossible. The fact that people can't seperate the car from the act of driving is just a symptom of the poor understanding.

Also, one thread was a link to another persons blog on about lying to players and the ethics of gaming. If people want to take that as a "you're doing it wrong" that is on them to stand up and say "Lying to players is fine" and then we can have a discussion about maintaining player trust and how that and it's satellite issues can link into the game, it's structure and how it reinforces or doesn't reinforce the games point. Oh right...we can't even do that because people don't understand the games point and we're back to "Durrrr hurr it's fun!" which is 100% subjective and useless as an answer.

Perception can take a flying leap and give way to understanding and reflection.

Also if your perception is that I am trying to show people better ways to play and that there is a spectrum of play, then so what? I AM saying that. There is a spectrum of play and there are better or worse layers of it. The only thing that is typically a difference is that I can actually discuss my views both mechanically and sociologically...and I don't just have to hide behind the bugbear of "it's fun!" to keep from actually defending my points.

After all, if this is ALL so subjective, why don't we just pin a post to the top of the board that says "If you are having fun, you are doing it right. If you aren't, then do what is fun. All problems solved" then we can close the board down? If all answers are valid, and none are better than the other, and fun is (somehow) what the game was designed to mechanically create (despite, y'know, Wizards designers clearly stating it has a different point...guess they're wrong) that can only mean that if people aren't having fun they are either A) doing it wrong or B) the game fails on a fundamental mechanical level and should be abandoned as broken. No? And if they're doing it wrong, the only answer that matters is "do what is fun". Again, just close the board and create the sticky.

#speakingtowallssometimes

I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end. If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it.

 

Proudly playing in many wrong ways. I'm not afraid of playing wrong according to the rules. Why are you?

 

100 Crack Reply of the Yagamifire. You are already wrong.