D&D Next Q&A: System Mastery, Unbound Accuracy & Terminology

I agree completely with all three answers.

I'd add that terminology is even more important in this development stage in the articles that you put out.  Confusion as to what "core" means is the most egregious offender, but Bounded Accuracy certainly has its issues as well.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Q&A Haiku Time!

System Mastery?
Meaningful contributions
Don't need mastery.

Unbounded Module?
We don't see that happening.
Don't mess with the math.

Does language matter?
Yes. Proficiencies or Skills:
Barriers or boons. 
I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC.  For most wizards (Dex 14 or lower) that means an increase of 3 points of AC at level 1.

Ignoring the context:  Which would you rather have, especially at low level and especially given how easy it generally is to hit and how few hit points you have:  A bonus of +3 to your AC (mage armor compared to scale armor plus dwarf bonus) or a penalty of -1 to your attacks but only for the next three levels (or, more likely, no penalty at all now, but a -1 penalty for levels four through seven.

Even if it was a penalty of -1 to your attacks for the remainder of your career (rather than just for half of the levels up until you reach 20 Int) - trading a +3 to AC for a -1 to attack is a pretty good deal.

Even if your wizard somehow has an 18 Dex - the dwarf's AC is still better than mage armor (although it is only a point better so that is a more difficult choice).

Right now Intelligence just isn't that important to the class and a penalty of -1 for half the levels until you can get it raised isn't that big a deal.  The AC bonus is more important - especially at low levels (and at high levels the penalty doesn't exist because you will have a 20 Int either way).


The problem is:  Intelligence just doesn't matter enough.  It doesn't add to damage (as in 3.x, 4E and an earlier version of 5E) and it doesn't affect spells known or the chance to learn a spell (as in AD&D) or your ability to cast higher level spells at all (as in both AD&D and 3.x).

Perhaps Mage Armor ought to use the character's Intelligence as the modifier rather than their Dexterity.

Regardless, the High Elf wizard would probably be labeled a trap in a Char Op analysis of the 4E classes.  Or at best whatever color means 'decent, but not optimal choice'.


Carl
Human wizard -> dwarf wizard -> elf wizard -> Other.


I don't want Int to be super importaint to spell casting.  Affecting the to-hit is enough.
Nor do i want Str to be super importaint to swinging a sword.  I'd prefer to remove the damage part. 

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC.  For most wizards (Dex 14 or lower) that means an increase of 3 points of AC at level 1.

Ignoring the context:  Which would you rather have, especially at low level and especially given how easy it generally is to hit and how few hit points you have:  A bonus of +3 to your AC (mage armor compared to scale armor plus dwarf bonus) or a penalty of -1 to your attacks but only for the next three levels (or, more likely, no penalty at all now, but a -1 penalty for levels four through seven.

Even if it was a penalty of -1 to your attacks for the remainder of your career (rather than just for half of the levels up until you reach 20 Int) - trading a +3 to AC for a -1 to attack is a pretty good deal.

Even if your wizard somehow has an 18 Dex - the dwarf's AC is still better than mage armor (although it is only a point better so that is a more difficult choice).

Right now Intelligence just isn't that important to the class and a penalty of -1 for half the levels until you can get it raised isn't that big a deal.  The AC bonus is more important - especially at low levels (and at high levels the penalty doesn't exist because you will have a 20 Int either way).


The problem is:  Intelligence just doesn't matter enough.  It doesn't add to damage (as in 3.x, 4E and an earlier version of 5E) and it doesn't affect spells known or the chance to learn a spell (as in AD&D) or your ability to cast higher level spells at all (as in both AD&D and 3.x).

Perhaps Mage Armor ought to use the character's Intelligence as the modifier rather than their Dexterity.

Regardless, the High Elf wizard would probably be labeled a trap in a Char Op analysis of the 4E classes.  Or at best whatever color means 'decent, but not optimal choice'.


Carl



+1

A dwarf wizard overseer after reaching level 20 must step down as soon as the 1st level high elf wizard enters court.  Why?

"There are always going to be certain combinations that are better than others; high elves make better wizards than mountain dwarves"

Dang Mountain dwarves wannabees.


As far as goes, I prefer to not mess around with the extra accounting.  But whatever.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC

How is that making you a better wizard ? An additional cantrip and Intelligence makes a Wizard better than does AC IMO. 

You may end up having a better character in the end statistically by being a Dwarf, but your Wizardry hasn't improved where being an Elf would Wink

I think that's where Jeremy is coming from.

EDITED To correct spelling

With a 20 cap on abilities I fail to see how the dwarf would be out-distanced.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC

How is that making you a better wizard ? Additional cantrips and Intelligence makes a Wizard better than does AC IMO. 

You may end up having a better character in the end statistically by being a Dwarf, but your Wizardry hasn't improved where being an Elf would Wink

I think that's where Jeremy is coming from.





A +1 to attack for half your levels during the first half of your career is not worth a +3 (or better ) AC for your entire career.


Let me put it this way:  In any edition - given the choice between robes/ armor that would give you a +3 to your AC or a +1 to attack item - which would you take?  (And that doesn't even take into consideration the fact that after the 12th or so level you no longer have the attack benefit OR that the attack benefit only applies to  half of the levels before that).


And that is additional cantrip (singular) not cantrips. 


And since you don't need mage armor - that is one less cantrip that you do need.  So you aren't even losing a cantrip. 


Carl
I find it puzzling that they say:

we want the language to be clear, consistent, and comprehensible

When any hint of 4E language or mechanics needs to be buried under verbal obfuscation
...whatever
Even an additional spell makes the Wizard better than AC alone, which doesn't nothing to better the class.
I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC

How is that making you a better wizard ? Additional cantrips and Intelligence makes a Wizard better than AC does IMO. 

You may end up having a better character in the end statistically by being a Dwarf, but your Wizardry hasn't improved



I was wondering that too.  I guess the mountain dwarf is trading armor proficiency for the mage armor cantrip and a point in Intelligence.  That point in Intelligence basically means the dwarf wizard (using an array) will start at Int 16 rather than Int 17 and spends 40% of his career (levels 4-7, and 12-17) with an Intelligence modifer 1 less than the high elf's.  That modifier applies to spell attack rolls and DCs.  

That seems like a big deal to me.  The armor prof is basically a wash as far as I'm concerned.  The -1 on spellcasting attacks and save DCs however, is significant over the wizards career.  I don't think it's so significant that the dwarf is unplayable.  But I do think it's a mistake to claim the dwarf is better than the high elf at wizarding.
I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC

How is that making you a better wizard ? Additional cantrips and Intelligence makes a Wizard better than AC does IMO. 

You may end up having a better character in the end statistically by being a Dwarf, but your Wizardry hasn't improved



I was wondering that too.  I guess the mountain dwarf is trading armor proficiency for the mage armor cantrip and a point in Intelligence.  That point in Intelligence basically means the dwarf wizard (using an array) will start at Int 16 rather than Int 17 and spends 40% of his career (levels 4-7, and 12-17) with an Intelligence modifer 1 less than the high elf's.  That modifier applies to spell attack rolls and DCs.  

That seems like a big deal to me.  The armor prof is basically a wash as far as I'm concerned.  The -1 on spellcasting attacks and save DCs however, is significant over the wizards career.  I don't think it's so significant that the dwarf is unplayable.  But I do think it's a mistake to claim the dwarf is better than the high elf at wizarding.




With a 14 Dex (typical with the array) that armor proficiency means three points of armor at level 1.  That is a roughly 30% reduction in damage from attacks that target AC (which is most monsters, based on a roughly 50% chance to hit).  I don't see that as a wash and I'd call it well worth a -1 for only half of your career (and no penalty for the remaining half).


It comes down to this:  If you had a choice between an item that granted a +1 to attack or an item that granted a +3 to defense - which would you take?  I think most would grab the +3 to defense without much thought.

To put it another way (and very simplistically):  The loss of Int means that you will do about 4% less damage over your career (around 10% less 40% of the levels (by your calculation) and none less the other 60%.)  The gain in AC means that you will take around 30% less damage over your career (ignoring that you might raise your dex more as an elf or get better medium armor as a dwarf as either increase tends to balance the other).

4% more damage done or 30% less damage taken.  Again - it seems like an easy choice (especially since if you go down, you do 100% less damage).

Carl
I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC

How is that making you a better wizard ? Additional cantrips and Intelligence makes a Wizard better than AC does IMO. 

You may end up having a better character in the end statistically by being a Dwarf, but your Wizardry hasn't improved



I was wondering that too.  I guess the mountain dwarf is trading armor proficiency for the mage armor cantrip and a point in Intelligence.  That point in Intelligence basically means the dwarf wizard (using an array) will start at Int 16 rather than Int 17 and spends 40% of his career (levels 4-7, and 12-17) with an Intelligence modifer 1 less than the high elf's.  That modifier applies to spell attack rolls and DCs.  

That seems like a big deal to me.  The armor prof is basically a wash as far as I'm concerned.  The -1 on spellcasting attacks and save DCs however, is significant over the wizards career.  I don't think it's so significant that the dwarf is unplayable.  But I do think it's a mistake to claim the dwarf is better than the high elf at wizarding.



Doesn't the dwarf also end up with almost 2x the HP of the elf. Dwarf starts with 14 Con and the elf starts with 13 Con at max. The dwarf starts with 14 Dex and medium armor so he can focus on Con instead of Dex. The elf must pump Dex to match the dwarfs AC. So the dwarf can easily have a +4 Con bonus while the elf is still at a +1 con bonus.
I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC

How is that making you a better wizard ? Additional cantrips and Intelligence makes a Wizard better than AC does IMO. 

You may end up having a better character in the end statistically by being a Dwarf, but your Wizardry hasn't improved



I was wondering that too.  I guess the mountain dwarf is trading armor proficiency for the mage armor cantrip and a point in Intelligence.  That point in Intelligence basically means the dwarf wizard (using an array) will start at Int 16 rather than Int 17 and spends 40% of his career (levels 4-7, and 12-17) with an Intelligence modifer 1 less than the high elf's.  That modifier applies to spell attack rolls and DCs.  

That seems like a big deal to me.  The armor prof is basically a wash as far as I'm concerned.  The -1 on spellcasting attacks and save DCs however, is significant over the wizards career.  I don't think it's so significant that the dwarf is unplayable.  But I do think it's a mistake to claim the dwarf is better than the high elf at wizarding.



Doesn't the dwarf also end up with almost 2x the HP of the elf. Dwarf starts with 14 Con and the elf starts with 13 Con at max. The dwarf starts with 14 Dex and medium armor so he can focus on Con instead of Dex. The elf must pump Dex to match the dwarfs AC. So the dwarf can easily have a +4 Con bonus while the elf is still at a +1 con bonus.



Mountain dwarf increases Wis not Con.  So also have slightly better Wis saves but not more hit points.

Unless you are talking just about the differences in how they spend their points - which is also a valid point.  The dwarf starts with a decent AC and needen't raise his dex beyond 14 while the elf feels pressured to raise dex to just get close to the defense the dwarf has out of the gate.

Thus the dwarf also ends up with more hit points.

Again- advantage Dwarf.

Carl
I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC

How is that making you a better wizard ? Additional cantrips and Intelligence makes a Wizard better than AC does IMO. 

You may end up having a better character in the end statistically by being a Dwarf, but your Wizardry hasn't improved



I was wondering that too.  I guess the mountain dwarf is trading armor proficiency for the mage armor cantrip and a point in Intelligence.  That point in Intelligence basically means the dwarf wizard (using an array) will start at Int 16 rather than Int 17 and spends 40% of his career (levels 4-7, and 12-17) with an Intelligence modifer 1 less than the high elf's.  That modifier applies to spell attack rolls and DCs.  

That seems like a big deal to me.  The armor prof is basically a wash as far as I'm concerned.  The -1 on spellcasting attacks and save DCs however, is significant over the wizards career.  I don't think it's so significant that the dwarf is unplayable.  But I do think it's a mistake to claim the dwarf is better than the high elf at wizarding.



I don't fancy the generalization as a design element but it doesn't break my will to participate in 5E.

If the race to ability cap is what makes the better combo then there could be an issue.  A roll of 18 makes the dwarven wizard only four levels behind.  And those early levels might be nice to have a better AC than +1 from Int.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC

How is that making you a better wizard ? Additional cantrips and Intelligence makes a Wizard better than AC does IMO. 

You may end up having a better character in the end statistically by being a Dwarf, but your Wizardry hasn't improved



I was wondering that too.  I guess the mountain dwarf is trading armor proficiency for the mage armor cantrip and a point in Intelligence.  That point in Intelligence basically means the dwarf wizard (using an array) will start at Int 16 rather than Int 17 and spends 40% of his career (levels 4-7, and 12-17) with an Intelligence modifer 1 less than the high elf's.  That modifier applies to spell attack rolls and DCs.  

That seems like a big deal to me.  The armor prof is basically a wash as far as I'm concerned.  The -1 on spellcasting attacks and save DCs however, is significant over the wizards career.  I don't think it's so significant that the dwarf is unplayable.  But I do think it's a mistake to claim the dwarf is better than the high elf at wizarding.



I don't fancy the generalization as a design element but it doesn't break my will to participate in 5E.

If the race to ability cap is what makes the better combo then there could be an issue.  A roll of 18 makes the dwarven wizard only four levels behind.  And those early levels might be nice to have a better AC than +1 from Int.




It certainly doesn't 'break my will'.  I just think it is a quirk of the rules as they grow.  The dwarf benefit wasn't a problem until they later changed the rules for casting in armor. Before the dwarf wizard didn't work because he couldn't cast in the armor.  Now he can, which made that racial benefit much much better than it was (and much better than any other classes racial ability).

It is, in fact, exactly what playtests are for.  To find the cases where rules that made sense on their own interact oddly to create problems.

They need to revisit both rules and find a way to limit the effect of the two rules (both of which are ok by themselves) when brought together.  The better solution (imho) is to give dwarves one class better AC.  If you can use no armor, you gain light armor; if you can use light, you gain medium; perhaps even if you can use medium, you gain heavy armor.  This solves the wizard problem while still giving the dwarves an armor benefit.


The same, btw, also applies to the non-armored clerics.

Carl
I don't see that as a wash and I'd call it well worth a -1 for only half of your career (and no penalty for the remaining half).


i don't.  I don't think a wizard is defensively minded.  he's not supposed to be attacked.  His allies are supposed to be protecting him.  If I were building a wizard, I'd be taking the +1 bonus to save DCs and magic attacks over a +3 to AC every damn time.

4% more damage done or 30% less damage taken.


I don't plan on being in a weapon's reach, so I'll take a +4% to something I do every round vs. -30% to something I think will be an infrequent occurrence.

] Again - it seems like an easy choice (especially since if you go down, you do 100% less damage).


If my allies aren't protecting the wizard, I've got bigger problems than not being a dwarf.

Dwarven Assassin Rogues!

We should turn this thread into an I love Dwarves thread.  I'll get the ale


If my allies aren't protecting the wizard, I've got bigger problems than not being a dwarf.




Now,

This does break my will to play 5E.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Don't forget mage armor.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Isn't every thread secretly an I love Dwarves thread?

Trevor Kidd Community Manager

Isn't every thread secretly an I love Dwarves thread?



/Quaffs a burley dwarven stout

Aye!

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

It comes down to this:  If you had a choice between an item that granted a +1 to attack or an item that granted a +3 to defense - which would you take?  I think most would grab the +3 to defense without much thought

But the question is not which one you'd take to become a better character, but which one makes you a better Wizard and the accuracy bonus in skills and attacks related to Wizards makes it better in Wizardry than the defense bonus, that's the distinction i wanted to make. 

Isn't every thread secretly an I love Dwarves thread?


5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Don't forget mage armor.



This all assumes the elf has mage armor up all the time.  That gives him AC 14 with a 14 dex.  The dwarf in scale has AC 17 with that same 14 dex

Carl
A wizard shouldn't be attacked, but inevitably it will happen with some frequency. A non-dwarf Wizard will have to try to escape and stay alive and lose actions to that, while an armored Dwarf wizard who boosts Con will just stand there and not care. The extra survivability will result in more offense because of that.
...whatever
I feel the biggest take away from this article is that "system mastery" is rewarded. If being an elf means you are the best wizard (currently contested) than being a non-elf wizard is a foolish choice.

I would much rather see ability score bonuses work like this:

Race gives an option of 2 ability scores to choose from.
Class gives an option of 2 ability scores to choose from.

Pick one score from race and one from class, you cannot pick the same score twice. Each chosen score gains a +2 bonus.

Humans can choose any ability score as their racial ability score.

This allows PCs to pick non-traditional race class combos and still be perfectly viable. An Orc (+2 Str or Con) wizard (+2 Int or Wis) will still get his +2 Int bonus so he won't be penalized for choosing a non Int race. People shouldn't be penalized for RP.
I think the real take away here is this...While you guys are arguing over which makes a better wizard, the dwarf or the elf, in the end they both make awesome wizards for different yet both defendable reasons.  You guys are literally talking about minescule bonuses, and that is the best part.  The differences aren't so big that you need to feel locked in.  Being a wizard doesn't mean you instantly need to pick elf as your race just to be functional and picking dwarf won't make you disfunctional or less effective.  Basically that both could be defended as good choices with both sides having valid points is excelent.
But the question is not which one you'd take to become a better character, but which one makes you a better Wizard and the accuracy bonus in skills and attacks related to Wizards makes it better in Wizardry than the defense bonus, that's the distinction i wanted to make. 




I am not playing a class, I am playing a character.

I'd rather play a dwarf wizard over a namby pamby elf.  Elves shouldn't be adventuring if they need to be protected all the day.  Elves need to get some blood on their robes now and then.  Damn sissies.



"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

A wizard shouldn't be attacked, but inevitably it will happen with some frequency. A non-dwarf Wizard will have to try to escape and stay alive and lose actions to that, while an armored Dwarf wizard who boosts Con will just stand there and not care. The extra survivability will result in more offense because of that.



Wrecan and Plaguescarred don't believe in the existence of arrows.

 





Carl

Wrecan and Plaguescarred don't believe in the existence of arrows.

I don't believe that they are omnipresent, no.
I think the real take away here is this...While you guys are arguing over which makes a better wizard, the dwarf or the elf, in the end they both make awesome wizards for different yet both defendable reasons.  You guys are literally talking about minescule bonuses, and that is the best part.  The differences aren't so big that you need to feel locked in.  Being a wizard doesn't mean you instantly need to pick elf as your race just to be functional and picking dwarf won't make you disfunctional or less effective.  Basically that both could be defended as good choices with both sides having valid points is excelent.



True. 
My initial disbelief was that they picked the one race that was superior to the high elf (or maybe equal to at lower levels depending upon your priorities) to use as their example.

If they had said Hill Dwarf or Halfling or any other race - I would have agreed 100% that the High Elf makes a better wizard, but [race X] is a viable choice.

It was their choice of the only race that is actually superior to (imho) the High Elf that made me pause and wonder if they are out of touch or if we are just not up to date  (I consider humans a wash although they may have a small advantage).

Carl
You guys are literally talking about minescule bonuses, and that is the best part.  The differences aren't so big that you need to feel locked in.


Agreed.  you want a wizard that can stand on the front lines and take some hits?  Be a dwarf.  You want a wizard how hits a little more often and whose enemies save a little less often.  Be a high elf.

How you rate these is going to depend on where you value AC over spell attack/DC for a wizard.
You guys are literally talking about minescule bonuses, and that is the best part.  The differences aren't so big that you need to feel locked in.


Agreed.  you want a wizard that can stand on the front lines and take some hits?  Be a dwarf.  You want a wizard how hits a little more often and whose enemies save a little less often.  Be a high elf.

How you rate these is going to depend on where you value AC over spell attack/DC for a wizard.



And whether you expect to get to be high enough level to have a 20 int. as a dwarf.


Carl

Each chosen score gains a +2 bonus.



A half-orc wizard was never seen in 3.5
A half-orc wizard was rarely seen in 4e
A half-orc wizard will be uncommon in 5e

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

And whether you expect to get to be high enough level to have a 20 int. as a dwarf.


Sure, and whether your campaign starts at a level other than 1st.  Lots of factors.


Though, to be fair, if you only think you'l make it to level 7, you'll be behind attacks and saves for more than half your career.
You guys are literally talking about minescule bonuses, and that is the best part.  The differences aren't so big that you need to feel locked in.


Agreed.  you want a wizard that can stand on the front lines and take some hits?  Be a dwarf.  You want a wizard how hits a little more often and whose enemies save a little less often.  Be a high elf.

How you rate these is going to depend on where you value AC over spell attack/DC for a wizard.



and you could valuate them differently for different characters.  For this character I might be trying to make a more up front shocking grasp without a familiar type of caster.  For that I'm gunna go with the dwarf.  If I'm going with the in the back blaster I'll hit up an elf.

I consider human a wash because I hope against all hopes that they change the human bonuses.  I literally had a player dead set on playing a human before looking at the packet read through all the races and switch to dwarf because while the human bonuses were strong they were boring.  He literally sat there reading the packet and got to human looked up from the packet and said, "Wait that's it?  All these other races got all this awesome stuff and humans just get that?  I mean I know it is powerful, but its just so bland and boring...yeah screw it I'm gunna be a dwarf".
I think the real take away here is this...While you guys are arguing over which makes a better wizard, the dwarf or the elf, in the end they both make awesome wizards for different yet both defendable reasons.  You guys are literally talking about minescule bonuses, and that is the best part.  The differences aren't so big that you need to feel locked in.  Being a wizard doesn't mean you instantly need to pick elf as your race just to be functional and picking dwarf won't make you disfunctional or less effective.  Basically that both could be defended as good choices with both sides having valid points is excelent.




Although Lawolf is right that there is some system mastery creep, I do believe you have a good take on it.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I agree - except for the statement that a High Elf makes a better wizard than a Mountain Dwarf.

The Mountain Dwarf makes a much much better wizard.

You lose a cantrip (but you have others) and you lose a point of Intelligence.

And you gain Medium armor - with a bonus to your AC.  For most wizards (Dex 14 or lower) that means an increase of 3 points of AC at level 1.

Ignoring the context:  Which would you rather have, especially at low level and especially given how easy it generally is to hit and how few hit points you have:  A bonus of +3 to your AC (mage armor compared to scale armor plus dwarf bonus) or a penalty of -1 to your attacks but only for the next three levels (or, more likely, no penalty at all now, but a -1 penalty for levels four through seven.

Even if it was a penalty of -1 to your attacks for the remainder of your career (rather than just for half of the levels up until you reach 20 Int) - trading a +3 to AC for a -1 to attack is a pretty good deal.

Even if your wizard somehow has an 18 Dex - the dwarf's AC is still better than mage armor (although it is only a point better so that is a more difficult choice).

Right now Intelligence just isn't that important to the class and a penalty of -1 for half the levels until you can get it raised isn't that big a deal.  The AC bonus is more important - especially at low levels (and at high levels the penalty doesn't exist because you will have a 20 Int either way).


The problem is:  Intelligence just doesn't matter enough.  It doesn't add to damage (as in 3.x, 4E and an earlier version of 5E) and it doesn't affect spells known or the chance to learn a spell (as in AD&D) or your ability to cast higher level spells at all (as in both AD&D and 3.x).

Perhaps Mage Armor ought to use the character's Intelligence as the modifier rather than their Dexterity.

Regardless, the High Elf wizard would probably be labeled a trap in a Char Op analysis of the 4E classes.  Or at best whatever color means 'decent, but not optimal choice'.


Carl

Plus the Dwarf gets the Con bonus to boost the Wizard hit points.

You guys are literally talking about minescule bonuses, and that is the best part.  The differences aren't so big that you need to feel locked in.


Agreed.  you want a wizard that can stand on the front lines and take some hits?  Be a dwarf.  You want a wizard how hits a little more often and whose enemies save a little less often.  Be a high elf.

How you rate these is going to depend on where you value AC over spell attack/DC for a wizard.



The issue I see is having to spend actions and spell slots on your own survival vs having the AC and HP to stand pat. In the long run, I believe the Dwarf comes out ahead. One of the things 4E taught me was having the defenses to not care whether you got attacked or not was as much an offensive weapons as a defensive one.
...whatever
Humans should be simple and boring so simple and boring people have a race to play.


Though i'd still tone them down a notch.  Mainly by remove the extra +1, and leave it with just +1 to all stats.  That leaves it more simpler, more boring, and more balanced.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

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