Spiked Gauntlets (3.5)

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Based on the threads I have read so far, I hope this question does not devolve into chaos.

If a character (NPC in this case) is wearing spike gauntlets, can he use another weapon in that hand? Since at least some (if not most) gauntlets seem to be designed for use while also using other weapons, it seems the spike gauntlets would too.

Would you allow him to use a shield with spiked gauntlets?

Thanks
Sure, you can use another weapon or a shield with the hand wearing a spiked gauntlet.  But you probably aren't going to be able to use the spiked gauntlet at the same time, depending on the item and what your DM thinks about it.

For example, the DM might allow you to punch normally with the spiked gauntlet while holding a fairly lightweight and easily-held weapon like a dagger, but could disallow it while using a heavier item like a flail, and certainly should for something like most shields (which would obviously get in the way).

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I see no reason you couldn't wield a weapon while wearing a spiked gauntlet. The illustration of it in the PHB show that it's hinged like a normal gauntlet which would allow for grasping an object. I might give a penalty if trying to punch someone with it while holding a weapon, but why would anyone do that when their normal weapon probably does more damage anyway. The whole point of it of course would be to reamain 'armed' even if you get disarmed.
If you were to strike with a weapon in one hand and punch with your spiked gauntlet in the other hand would invoke the usual two-weapon fighting penalties.
 
That's what I figured, but doing a search of old threads, there were some heated discussions in years past about whether it would/should work. I planned on having the gauntlets as backup in case the weapon is dropped/lost. I figured I would ask since there are definitely quite a few people on here more familiar with the rules and non-core books and maybe it is covered in one of them.
The real question is why would you? You should be using a two-handed weapon. While you should carry a spiked gauntlet to carry enchantments, hitting with it? Yeah, no.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
The real question is why would you? You should be using a two-handed weapon.

I planned on having the gauntlets as backup in case the weapon is dropped/lost.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
And how, exactly, do you lose a greatsword? loldisarm and sunder?
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Hey EA, you always think you have an answer for everything. Guess what? My dungeon master took my barbarian's greatsword away from me real nice and simple Sunday night. 


ENTICE GIFT
Enchantment [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Bard 2, Greed 2, sorcerer/
wizard 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You cast the spell and a purple glow appears
in your mark’s eyes. You hold out your
hand and demand the object it holds in a
compelling voice.
You enchant a creature so that
it feels suddenly compelled to give you
what it is holding when you cast this
spell.


 
Spiked Gauntlets can also be useful in a grapple or if you get swallowed whole I think.

5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."

 

I once asked the question (in D&D 3.5) "Does a Druid4/Wizard3/ArcaneHierophant1 have Wildshape?". Jesse Decker and Andy Collins: Yes and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Rich Redman and Ed Stark: No and the text is clear and can't be interpreted differently. Skip Williams: Lol, it's worded ambiguously and entirely not how I intended it. (Cust. Serv. Reference# 050815-000323)

A lot of my Pcs wear Spiked Gauntlets while travelling in swamps. I may be using Swallow Whole a little too often, One player has memorised how to cut yourself out of a frogs belly.

I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.

And how, exactly, do you lose a greatsword? loldisarm and sunder?

Those can actually happen, and there are a number of creatures that you might hit and lose your weapon to on an unlucky saving throw, like folugubs for crystal weapons, or oozes for most other materials.  Or a similarly bad roll against shatter.  Or a variety of other possibilities which can occur even at levels where you aren't readily able to protect yourself.
Spiked Gauntlets can also be useful in a grapple or if you get swallowed whole I think.

They're also useful for those casters carrying a shield since they give you an armed attack without taking up your hand.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The real question is why would you? You should be using a two-handed weapon. While you should carry a spiked gauntlet to carry enchantments, hitting with it? Yeah, no.

Guisarme.  Jus' sayin', bro.
Hey EA, you always think you have an answer for everything. Guess what? My dungeon master took my barbarian's greatsword away from me real nice and simple Sunday night. 


ENTICE GIFT
Enchantment [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Bard 2, Greed 2, sorcerer/
wizard 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You cast the spell and a purple glow appears
in your mark’s eyes. You hold out your
hand and demand the object it holds in a
compelling voice.
You enchant a creature so that
it feels suddenly compelled to give you
what it is holding when you cast this
spell.


Damn!  I thought my DM's VoPeace, whip-wielding, disarm-optimized bard was bad.  That little bastard used to piss us off so much.  Recurring villain, disarmed three of us over two encounters (one twice).  The dood was so memorable that one of the guys in the group decided to make the weapon he got back from the bard a Legacy Weapon.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Yeah Draco, recurring here too. 4 sessions, 5 or 6 weeks on his turn DM'ing. We thought (well, think) that she was fey, but I think personally now that he's using a shapechanged silver or gold dragon against us.
EA, I don't really think that that's an objective assessment. If nue got hit with entice gift, one could assume that he was probably playing a low level. If you want to go with minimum to maximum possible level the spell could have been cast, your looking at a level 3 wizard/cleric to a 4th level bard. Assuming their enemy was level 3-4, in order for it to be a challenge they would have to be anywhere from level 1-4 themselves. In those levels there are very few ways to shore up resistances to will saves, save for class features. As a barbarian, the best nue probably had was his +2 to will saves for raging, and even assuming that he had a 12 Wis (which is being generous as it's not a priority stat for a barbarian) he would have had anywhere from a 3-4 will save well in a rage vs a DC of base 13 (assuming the lowest needed ability modifier to cast the spell) and not including other enhancements. Roughly that means he had close to a 50/50 chance to pass or save given the circumstances.

As another point, there are plenty of ways to disarm a fighter/barbarian of their primary weapons. Heck, a simple use of the spell grease can ruin a melee users day at low levels, just to name one.
It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.
It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.

Well those just suck in my honest opinon.  At least they sure do depending on what is on them and how they work.
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It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.

Well those just suck in my honest opinon.  At least they sure do depending on what is on them and how they work.

QFT

Also, still curious as to how/why scimitar+handaxe is good for trippers.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.

Well those just suck in my honest opinon.  At least they sure do depending on what is on them and how they work.



Fair enough. I was not a big fan of it but my players insisted on it. They keep envisioning themselves scoring the big hit and unfortunately for them they did score a couple of huge critical hits early in the game (took out a carrion crawler with one hit). Now that they've been the recipients of a few big hits they're not particularly thrilled but each time I ask if they still want the chart, they respond with an enthusiastic affirmation. I figure it will cause us a big problem if they are ever the recipient of a one hit kill but I will probably change it on the fly to something non-lethal but debilitating.

I think this chart is from a Dungeon or Dragon magazine and probably from the late 80s or 90s. It was on page 223 of whatever source and is listed as being in the Appendices as Table D-1 and Table D-2.

The way we roll criticals is if the weapon hits in its critical threat range, they confirm it by rolling again and scoring a hit on the creature. They drop a percentage roll and the percentage determines what the critical result is. For hits, there is a 31% it is just normal critical damage and 31% change of adding +1 to the critical multiplier. The remainder involves a chance to injure body parts for temporary penalties to attacks, movements, and such. There are a few massive ability score damage possibilities and a few save or die rolls as well. For critical fumbles, there are some minor inconveniences like make a save or fall prone, drop weapon, break weapon, etc., as well as losing next attack, hit self or other for damage or critical damage, and then a few outcomes that has you roll for multiple fail events.

As I said, I am not a big fan of it as I keep telling them that monsters are designed to die in a single combat so while the flavor might be nice to score a critical hit, the monsters don't suffer much for the longer term injuries since they're supposed to die anyway. However, the PCs might suffer majorly since they are supposed to survive multiple combats and some of the injuries really can impact survivability. My PCs still insist they want the chart so we keep using it.
It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.

Well those just suck in my honest opinon.  At least they sure do depending on what is on them and how they work.

QFT

Also, still curious as to how/why scimitar+handaxe is good for trippers.



The high sword low ax weapon style feat would be the awnser to that. It's a pretty intensive feat tree requiring improved trip, two weapon fighting, weapon focus with either a bastard sword, longsword, scimitar or short sword, and weapon focus yet again with either a battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe. What it does is when you use the weapons you have focus with and hit with each of them you get a free trip attempt against the target you hit. Since its so feat intensive however it's usually best pulled of by a build roughly going wolf totem barbarian 2/fighter 2/ranger 2 or some such progression. It has it's merits, I think there was a rather nice fighter build that utilized the feat to good effect a wile back before tome of battle came out and gave better options. I think the build was called lightning jack or something to that effect? Tempest would probably know off hand.
EA, I don't really think that that's an objective assessment. If nue got hit with entice gift, one could assume that he was probably playing a low level. If you want to go with minimum to maximum possible level the spell could have been cast, your looking at a level 3 wizard/cleric to a 4th level bard. Assuming their enemy was level 3-4, in order for it to be a challenge they would have to be anywhere from level 1-4 themselves. In those levels there are very few ways to shore up resistances to will saves, save for class features. As a barbarian, the best nue probably had was his +2 to will saves for raging, and even assuming that he had a 12 Wis (which is being generous as it's not a priority stat for a barbarian) he would have had anywhere from a 3-4 will save well in a rage vs a DC of base 13 (assuming the lowest needed ability modifier to cast the spell) and not including other enhancements. Roughly that means he had close to a 50/50 chance to pass or save given the circumstances.

First of all, Steadfast Determination. Second, Locked Gauntlet beats Entice Gift. One round duration sucks like that.

As I said, it's your own damned fault.
As another point, there are plenty of ways to disarm a fighter/barbarian of their primary weapons. Heck, a simple use of the spell grease can ruin a melee users day at low levels, just to name one.

And you mean to tell me your Whirling Frenzy barbarian is going to fail such a low level reflex save?
It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.

Don't. Seriously, don't
Also, still curious as to how/why scimitar+handaxe is good for trippers.

High Sword, Low Ax. Aren't you familliar with Jack B. Quick, the build that gets seven free attacks whenever you attack it?
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
The high sword low ax weapon style feat would be the awnser to that. It's a pretty intensive feat tree requiring improved trip, two weapon fighting, weapon focus with either a bastard sword, longsword, scimitar or short sword, and weapon focus yet again with either a battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe. What it does is when you use the weapons you have focus with and hit with each of them you get a free trip attempt against the target you hit. Since its so feat intensive however it's usually best pulled of by a build roughly going wolf totem barbarian 2/fighter 2/ranger 2 or some such progression. It has it's merits, I think there was a rather nice fighter build that utilized the feat to good effect a wile back before tome of battle came out and gave better options. I think the build was called lightning jack or something to that effect? Tempest would probably know off hand.

Um... why blow a -ton of feats, when a guisarme/spiked gauntlet combo doesn't cost ANY?  I'm still not seeing the logic.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
First of all, Steadfast Determination. Second, Locked Gauntlet beats Entice Gift. One round duration sucks like that.

There are plenty of other possibilities, EA, including things like time hop if you think a Fortitude or Reflex save is the way to prevent it.

Show me the complete build you think is going to avoid all possible weapon loss with a two-hander, and I'll show you where it still has holes.  You can easily go on about things like Steadfast Determination and so forth, but I've yet to see a build using all the relevant defenses to block everything at once.
Um... why blow a -ton of feats, when a guisarme/spiked gauntlet combo doesn't cost ANY?  I'm still not seeing the logic.

The reason to do it would be to keep making regular attacks in addition to having the trip attacks.  Using High Sword Low Axe, you hit normally with both weapons to get your free trip attack.  If you succeed, you then also make your free attack from Improved Trip.

I can certainly see some shortcomings, but combining the trip with regular attacks would presumably be the idea of the method.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The high sword low ax weapon style feat would be the awnser to that. It's a pretty intensive feat tree requiring improved trip, two weapon fighting, weapon focus with either a bastard sword, longsword, scimitar or short sword, and weapon focus yet again with either a battleaxe, handaxe, or dwarven waraxe. What it does is when you use the weapons you have focus with and hit with each of them you get a free trip attempt against the target you hit. Since its so feat intensive however it's usually best pulled of by a build roughly going wolf totem barbarian 2/fighter 2/ranger 2 or some such progression. It has it's merits, I think there was a rather nice fighter build that utilized the feat to good effect a wile back before tome of battle came out and gave better options. I think the build was called lightning jack or something to that effect? Tempest would probably know off hand.

Um... why blow a -ton of feats, when a guisarme/spiked gauntlet combo doesn't cost ANY?  I'm still not seeing the logic.



Well, like I said, before tome of battle came out it was a pretty decent contender in terms of action economy for attacks and tripping. The build I reference and EA listed (Jack B. Quick) got a larg amount of attacks via tripping shenanigans. Personally I would favor the spiked gauntlet Guisarme combo for it's simplicity however.

EA, I don't really think that that's an objective assessment. If nue got hit with entice gift, one could assume that he was probably playing a low level. If you want to go with minimum to maximum possible level the spell could have been cast, your looking at a level 3 wizard/cleric to a 4th level bard. Assuming their enemy was level 3-4, in order for it to be a challenge they would have to be anywhere from level 1-4 themselves. In those levels there are very few ways to shore up resistances to will saves, save for class features. As a barbarian, the best nue probably had was his +2 to will saves for raging, and even assuming that he had a 12 Wis (which is being generous as it's not a priority stat for a barbarian) he would have had anywhere from a 3-4 will save well in a rage vs a DC of base 13 (assuming the lowest needed ability modifier to cast the spell) and not including other enhancements. Roughly that means he had close to a 50/50 chance to pass or save given the circumstances.

First of all, Steadfast Determination. Second, Locked Gauntlet beats Entice Gift. One round duration sucks like that.

As I said, it's your own damned fault.
As another point, there are plenty of ways to disarm a fighter/barbarian of their primary weapons. Heck, a simple use of the spell grease can ruin a melee users day at low levels, just to name one.

And you mean to tell me your Whirling Frenzy barbarian is going to fail such a low level reflex save?
It seems there are plenty of ways to end up without one's weapon. We also use a critical hit/fumble option chart, which has several weapon loss outcomes.

Don't. Seriously, don't
Also, still curious as to how/why scimitar+handaxe is good for trippers.

High Sword, Low Ax. Aren't you familliar with Jack B. Quick, the build that gets seven free attacks whenever you attack it?



Steadfast determination is an okay feat (though I think I would personally prefer other options like power attack if I was a straight barbarian at low levels instead of sinking feats into it) but if your not aware, nue tends to play pretty basic games that don't utilize a lot of the books (as a matter of fact, he usually plays pretty strictly core and I'm rather surprised he ran into that spell) so odds are he simply didn't have accesses to the feat. Remember, optimization is in part keyed to your resources. Also, depending on if he was playing a level 1, there could simply be the chance that he couldn't afford a chain gauntlet (however saying what he could and couldn't have is pretty much conjecture that could go on for a wile if one is to assume what he had via wbl).

One a secondary note, reading grease from the SRD:


Grease

Conjuration (Creation)





























Level:Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components:V, S, M
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target or Area:One object or a 10-ft. square
Duration:1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw:See text
Spell Resistance:No

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).


The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin.


Material Component

A bit of pork rind or butter.


If you look at the spell, it stats the the object needs to make the saving throw initially, so the first round something has grease cast on it you basically auto drop it if the item fails the save (with it's base save bonus of +0, +1 if its master work) with the character making reflex saves on additional rounds to try and pick it back up. Also, who said nue was playing a barbarian with whirling frenzy, and how does that apply to a myriad of other low level melee specialists who don't have good reflex saves, depend on having a high (or even moderate) Dex when this tactic is used?

I don't post very often, though I'm always here. Mayhaps I should make myself clear to the "well-read monkey".

Our group does not play by your competitive rules. We instead play a story type game. I'm sure you would be annoyed. LOTS.

Our players/playing is limited to core 3.5

The two of us that switch off as DM's "cheat" in using whatever new rules we find, for the bbeg's, and of course we all read lots of splat books, it's not like we're in a bubble.

I'm not asking you to be part of my game, only to understand that I'm a minority of the game that plays differently. Get over it. 
So you're saying you don't know how to play, yet you're coming in and bringing in a pointless story that can get loled at with a 5gp core item, and making it sound like it matters?

Considering you just got the cost wrong on a locked gauntlet, maybe you should brush up on your basics before you go criticizing others.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The locked gauntlet isn't even a very good option for an adventurer in a lot of cases, since you aren't wandering around all day with weapons attached to your hands on the off-chance of a sudden battle when you've got everyday uses for those fingers and thumbs.  If you know you're about to fight an enemy in a fairly flat, open area without the need to switch to any other weapon or handled item, a locked gauntlet may be useful if your opponent likes to disarm.  The rest of the time, it's typically a hindrance.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
The locked gauntlet isn't even a very good option for an adventurer in a lot of cases, since you aren't wandering around all day with weapons attached to your hands on the off-chance of a sudden battle when you've got everyday uses for those fingers and thumbs.  If you know you're about to fight an enemy in a fairly flat, open area without the need to switch to any other weapon or handled item, a locked gauntlet may be useful if your opponent likes to disarm.  The rest of the time, it's typically a hindrance.

Why? Most martial-types easily have the strength for it, and if there's a wagon, they can just sit in the wagon once the casters are done preparing spells until it's time to stab crap. Plus, if you have a single round of prep time, not unreasonable at all, then you could lock it before combat.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Ha. I guess I foolishly hoped that a question about spiked gauntlets would not devolve. It seems like every thread I have found on them seems to go this route.

The OP wanted to know if a character could use a weapon while also wearing spiked gauntlets. I got my answer: yes, he can. I also wanted to know if he can use a shield while wearing spiked gauntlets. I am not sure I got the answer to that question but I will have to scroll through the first few posts to double check; someone might have answered it. I get the sense that these questions are not discussed in the books.

Neue, it sounds like we potentially play a similar styled game. My players are limited to mostly core but I occasionally select non-core stuff to toss at them. I also use MM1-MM4 (not sure is MM2, MM3, & MM4 are considered core). There are lots of stories going in our game and we've not had a combat in the past 2 sessions although one is essentially guaranteed tomorrow (of course, everytime I think something is guaranteed, my players decide to do something totally outrageous).

Although we have a number of non-core books, we do not use them often (Libris Mortis has been used a number of times for monsters). I rarely used non-core books in the past either. Most of my players choose skills and equipment that optimizes their character concept, even if it is not the most optimal build for numbers.

I often do the same thing for the NPCs. I do appreciate hearing the pros and cons of whether spiked gauntlets are the best option but the story behind this NPC is more important. Ultimately, I decided against the spiked gauntlets since I decided spiked gauntlets and shields do not mix. I went with a flail and spiked light steel shield.
You could wear the Spiked Gauntlet while wearing a shield on that arm but being able to use the gauntlet as a weapon with tne shield equiped depends on the type of shield you're using. A Light or Heavy Shield, because of the way they're constructed, requires you to grasp a handle in order to wield it. With sich a shield you could not use the gauntlet as a weapon at all unless the shield were sundered or lost in some way. You could use the spiked gauntlet to attack with a buckler strapped to that arm since your hand is free to use for other things, but, unless you have the feat Improved Buckler Defense, you would lose the buckler's shield bonus to your AC for the duration of any round in which you chose to attack with that gauntlet.
Or you could just shoot the zombie with the BFG

Oh, wait, wrong room. 
Or you could just shoot the zombie with the BFG

Shop smart.  Shop S-Mart.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Why? Most martial-types easily have the strength for it, and if there's a wagon, they can just sit in the wagon once the casters are done preparing spells until it's time to stab crap. Plus, if you have a single round of prep time, not unreasonable at all, then you could lock it before combat.

There are plenty of times(especially at lower levels) where you'll be doing things like climbing, swimming, using items, and so on, where keeping your hand stuck to a weapon is a serious drawback, and it's a significant waste of actions in combat if you need to switch to a different weapon for some reason (like pulling out your cold iron morningstar when a greatsword isn't suitable, or a bow to shoot at a strafing dragon).  And you don't always have a round of prep time if you come across something you didn't expect, or if you get surprised.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Thanks. I was actually more concerned if he could use the shield in a shielding capacity or in a bashing capacity while also wearing spiked gauntlets. I figured he could not actually hit with the gauntlets while holding the shield. In my mind the spikes on the gauntlets would interfere with the handle/strap he uses to actually hold the shield in an effective manner. Ultimately, I just wanted him to have a ready made backup if he found himself shieldless or weaponless. At second level, I've equipped him with a chain shirt so spikes on his armor are not going to work but if the party continues to work with this NPC, I plan to add more spikes.
Thanks. I was actually more concerned if he could use the shield in a shielding capacity or in a bashing capacity while also wearing spiked gauntlets.

Bashing is definitely a concern, even with shield spikes, since you lose the shield's AC bonus until your next turn unless you've got the Improved Shield Bash feat.
At second level, I've equipped him with a chain shirt so spikes on his armor are not going to work but if the party continues to work with this NPC, I plan to add more spikes.

There isn't actually anything saying you can't put spikes on a chain shirt, it just seems weird when you imagine fighting with them.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Fulminating Crab, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome LurkerIronglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I statted this NPC with Weapon Focus Flail, Weapon Focus Shield, Improved Shield Bash, and Two Weapon Fighting. He's got a 16 strength. So, he gets +6 to hit with the flail or a +4 to hit with the shield. If he attacks with both, he ends up at +4 flail and +2 shield. He retains the shield bonus. He's probably not ideal but he's also probably a temporary NPC and any flaws in his design that might show up at higher levels will not likely be important as I expect my PCs to alienate him (they've managed to alienate almost every NPC).

I thought about spikes on a chain shirt but it seems odd to me so he will not be doing it. I'll likely rule that any spikes added to armor need to be secured to plate mail.

On a related note, however, when one creates a masterwork spiked shield are the spikes considered separate? If he acquires masterwork spikes, does he gain a +1 to attack rolls?
I statted this NPC with Weapon Focus Flail, Weapon Focus Shield, Improved Shield Bash, and Two Weapon Fighting. He's got a 16 strength. So, he gets +6 to hit with the flail or a +4 to hit with the shield. If he attacks with both, he ends up at +4 flail and +2 shield. He retains the shield bonus. He's probably not ideal but he's also probably a temporary NPC and any flaws in his design that might show up at higher levels will not likely be important as I expect my PCs to alienate him (they've managed to alienate almost every NPC).

The "half Strength for the off-hand" only applies to damage rolls, not attacks.  Your NPC gets +6 to hit with flail or shield, +4 if he's attacking with both.
I thought about spikes on a chain shirt but it seems odd to me so he will not be doing it. I'll likely rule that any spikes added to armor need to be secured to plate mail.

I have to disagree with this.  Why couldn't they be applied to banded mail, splint mail, or even a breastplate?  Heck, why couldn't a druid use wooden spikes on a suit of hide?  If you want to limit it, your best bet is just to limit it to "natural"* Medium armors.  Of course. then you get into the who issue of "Where the hell did studded leather come from, then?"  And I think there's a spiked leather variant somewhere, but I can't remember where right now.

*Natural meaning that it's the base wight, so something like a mithril breastplate could still qualify.
On a related note, however, when one creates a masterwork spiked shield are the spikes considered separate? If he acquires masterwork spikes, does he gain a +1 to attack rolls?

Yes, and the cost to make masterwork and/or enchant the spikes is separate.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Thanks for the catch on the shield.

You're right on the spiked armor; only plate is a bit too restrictive. I had not even thought of a breastplate but was on the fence for scale, banded, and splint. The wooden spikes for a druid is a neat twist too. I differentiated studded leather as those studs do not cause damage - unless I missed something somewhere - but I like the medium/heavy idea, except I still think spikes on chainmail seems odd. Spikes, in the sense of causing damage, on hide seems odd too.
I differentiated studded leather as those studs do not cause damage - unless I missed something somewhere -

Like I said, I think there is a Spiked Leather variant somewhere.  Probably in Complete Warrior or Arms & Equipment Guide.  I know it existed in 2E; my drug-addled brain may be mixing the two.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
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Or you could just shoot the zombie with the BFG

Shop smart.  Shop S-Mart.



Damn Draco, I just now got the joke, I missed it last night. Now introducing my wife to Army of Darkness, dying laughing here...
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