Paragon of Victory vs. Pathfinder for a Cleric|Ranger

19 posts / 0 new
Last post
Yes I'm not sure what to take for my dual waraxe wielding Mul Cleric|Ranger. There's no lack of healing in my party in general, but as the main striker I usually get the most heat from my DM. If I take Pathfinder, I would consider Reserve Maneuver-ing out of the Wrong Step encounter and into a ranger minor attack encounter power I didnt have room for (off-hand strike).

Here's my arguments as I see them:

Pathfinder:
11th level:
+2 healing surges (average but defintively useful)
Move action on AP (great, I have 7 minor actions: Hunter's Quarry, Off-hand strike, Ruffling Sting, Sohei Flurry, Root Gate, Resurgent Strength, Enter the Crucible)
Encounter power: Wrong Step is an MBA + immobilize on shift/move as an ImmInt (it's good, but I have Battle Awareness and I prefer more minor attacks for nova)

Level 12 Utility (daily): gain an AP when an ally uses an AP (great!)

16th level feature: the capstone of this PP (though it does take 5 levels): get quarry dice + WIS temp HP on quarry damage. Makes me very sticky.

19th level daily: spend a surge, hit and mark two enemies for average-ish power damage (meh for a PP daily).



Paragon of Victory:
11th level:
on an AP: +5 dmg until end of next turn or saving throw +5 for me or an ally (it's alright, but not great, nice flexibility though)
on a kill: +10 temp HP for me or an ally or push 3 within burst 2 (cool, but doesn't scale so well for the temp HP)

Encounter power: use cleric at-will as a minor (i have righteous brand) (great for NOVA!)

Level 12 Utility (daily): burst 2 within 10, healing surge +1 defense, +1 attack to allies in a burst (not me). (so-so as i'm not the main healer, but atleast it's a minor action)

16th level feature: MBA as an OppAttack if an ally gets bloodied or goes to zero HP (great! sure to be useful and doesnt spend my ImmInt action for the round)

19th level daily: Me and two allies get to use an at-will power as a minor action next round (great, more nova and focus fire, better than Pathfinder's daily to be sure).


So it's basically a more defender pp vs a leaderly pp, my party of 5 has 2 leaders and 2 defenders so either one wont be adding a whole lot to the party in terms of balance. I'd rather focus on damage. Keep in mind that my main attribute is Strength, with Wisdom as secondary (poor DEX).

To me it's obvious that Pathfinder scales better than Paragon of Victory (for the most part) while Paragon of Victory starts off stronger than Pathfinder at level 11 but peters out. We might never make it past level 20 to be honest so I'm not sure what to prefer.
Move Action on an AP is by and large one of the best benefits you could ever have as a ranger.
If you want damage, hard to beat morninglord, and gives you the level 11 burst...
Rather than focus on what they do for your secondary role, you should look at what they're doing for your primary role.

Pathfinder gives you an extra AP and free move on AP.

PoV gives you extra damage on your AP nova, another minor action power (maybe freeing up some other power slot for something better - you are right that you have a lot of minors), free off-action attacks, and a more-damage-by-way-of-enabling daily power.

The fact that you want to ResMan out the Pathfinder e11 for basically what PoV gives you as an e11 is another thing to consider.

Between the two, Pathfinder seems to benefit your build more. The temporary hit points you gain from Pathfinder's level 16 power will be greater than the amount you get from Paragon of Victory and will be gained more frequently (on a hit rather than on a kill). The greater amount of temporary HP and the extra healing surges will make sure your character holds up under the high heat you face from monsters.

The move action on an Action Point and an additional Action Point with the utility are both golden powers, too. When I played a two-blade ranger, never having enough actions was my greatest problem. The extra move action will help you create your first nova in a fight more readily than than Paragon of Victory's abilities do.

Paragon of Victory's attack powers are better, but Reserve Maneuver eliminates Pathfinder's encounter power and level 20 is (presumably) quite some time away! Thus, I wouldn't have any trouble recommending Pathfinder over Paragon of Victory for your build.
As someone who has played a ranger/pathfiner up to 22nd level, I think it is great. I even like the level 11 encounter power. As you, I have a lot of minor action. having the extra off turn action works well.
If you want damage, hard to beat morninglord, and gives you the level 11 burst...



because everything about Rangers scream implement attackers with a mental stat...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Ok so there's a lot of support for Pathfinder and I can see why. It's true that it is more geared towards nova and a ranger's role.
As someone who has played a ranger/pathfiner up to 22nd level, I think it is great. I even like the level 11 encounter power. As you, I have a lot of minor action. having the extra off turn action works well.


How often did it trigger in your experience?

Hmm, just to throw a monkey wrench into things - you're a Ranger|Cleric - that means you need to spend your hybrid talent feat to pick up the two-bladed option in order to qualify for Pathfinder. i.e. no Prime Shot and therefore no Called Shot or Prime Punisher.

A Gauntlet Axe isn't a bad off-hand weapon - d8 instead of d12, but you get +1 to AC.
Ok so there's a lot of support for Pathfinder and I can see why. It's true that it is more geared towards nova and a ranger's role.
As someone who has played a ranger/pathfiner up to 22nd level, I think it is great. I even like the level 11 encounter power. As you, I have a lot of minor action. having the extra off turn action works well.


How often did it trigger in your experience?




This character is an LFR character (different dms for almost every game). I have 3 interupts: Wrong Step, Battle Awareness, and Disruptive Strike. I would say I use at least 2 of those every encounter. And I would say in about half of the encounters I've used all 3. Honestly this is just vague recollections, but I don't ever remember thinking I had two many interupts. Many times if an enemy is shifting I will use Wrong step, as they are usualy shifting for combat advantage or to do something evil.
Hmm, just to throw a monkey wrench into things - you're a Ranger|Cleric - that means you need to spend your hybrid talent feat to pick up the two-bladed option in order to qualify for Pathfinder. i.e. no Prime Shot and therefore no Called Shot or Prime Punisher.

A Gauntlet Axe isn't a bad off-hand weapon - d8 instead of d12, but you get +1 to AC.


You get +1 AC for a round when you didn't use it to attack (ie: you didn't twin strike) which for me is never. I already have two-bladed warrior through hybrid talent, thoughness and two increases to my off-hand die served me well, though I do know that the prime punisher line can be interesting, it is also a bit conditional (seeing as how I need to be the only one next to the enemy). Im willing to hear more opinions on this.


If your party doesn't understand "Leave me alone with this guy while I turn him into a greasy smear", you have bigger problems than your build
If your party doesn't understand "Leave me alone with this guy while I turn him into a greasy smear", you have bigger problems than your build



Yeah but what about elites and dragons and whatnot. But yeah, +2 to hit and +5 damage is not something you can easily overlook. Thanks for throwing in that monkey rench. Now what do you recommend if you're so smart? ;)
Hmm, just to throw a monkey wrench into things - you're a Ranger|Cleric - that means you need to spend your hybrid talent feat to pick up the two-bladed option in order to qualify for Pathfinder. i.e. no Prime Shot and therefore no Called Shot or Prime Punisher.

A Gauntlet Axe isn't a bad off-hand weapon - d8 instead of d12, but you get +1 to AC.


You get +1 AC for a round when you didn't use it to attack (ie: you didn't twin strike) which for me is never. I already have two-bladed warrior through hybrid talent, thoughness and two increases to my off-hand die served me well, though I do know that the prime punisher line can be interesting, it is also a bit conditional (seeing as how I need to be the only one next to the enemy). Im willing to hear more opinions on this.



It has the Defensive Property. As long as you're wielding a weapon in your other hand, you gain a +1 to AC...
Hmm, just to throw a monkey wrench into things - you're a Ranger|Cleric - that means you need to spend your hybrid talent feat to pick up the two-bladed option in order to qualify for Pathfinder. i.e. no Prime Shot and therefore no Called Shot or Prime Punisher.

A Gauntlet Axe isn't a bad off-hand weapon - d8 instead of d12, but you get +1 to AC.


You get +1 AC for a round when you didn't use it to attack (ie: you didn't twin strike) which for me is never. I already have two-bladed warrior through hybrid talent, thoughness and two increases to my off-hand die served me well, though I do know that the prime punisher line can be interesting, it is also a bit conditional (seeing as how I need to be the only one next to the enemy). Im willing to hear more opinions on this.



It has the Defensive Property. As long as you're wielding a weapon in your other hand, you gain a +1 to AC...



I guess I interpreted the "you need not attack to gain this benefit" as "you mustn't attack to gain this benefit", point noted, thanks.
If your party doesn't understand "Leave me alone with this guy while I turn him into a greasy smear", you have bigger problems than your build



Yeah but what about elites and dragons and whatnot. But yeah, +2 to hit and +5 damage is not something you can easily overlook. Thanks for throwing in that monkey rench. Now what do you recommend if you're so smart? ;)



Elites?  You can 1 round them, or come very close, pretty easily.  This is not an issue for a ranger.
I know I talked about how I liked pathfinder, but the prime punisher, called shot tree is pretty good as well. That tree works nicely.
I think Pathfinder is better for a Ranger | Cleric, and Paragon of Victory is good for other Cleric hybrids like Fighters, Barbarians, Avengers, etc. With less minor action attacks.
Sapphire - Swormage Dragon Guardian - Dont touch my allies build. Swordmage / Sigil Carver / Draconic incarnation The Holy Slayer - A Striker - Defender Fighter | Cleric / Barbarian - Paragon of Victory WEREBEAR BATTLEMIND: You wont go where you want. - A Battlemind (Druid) / Unbound Nomad / Topaz Crusader

So are we suggesting Paragon of Victory over Pathfinder now?
Sign In to post comments