I Cast Cure Minor Wounds 12 Times

Has anyone else encountered this practice?

Party is beaten down, everyone is below 3 HP, party takes a short rest, Cleric casts Cure Minor Wounds multiple times to pad everyone's health to 4 HP and then all proceed to pull out Healer's Kits and heal from there? 

Danny

I think the 3 HP limit is perfectly fair. They could make it 1 or 0, but what difference is 4 HP in the long run?
I think the 3 HP limit is perfectly fair. They could make it 1 or 0, but what difference is 4 HP in the long run?

The issue (for me) is not the nominal HP gain, it's the gamist approach the presentation of the spell encourages.

I was wondering if others have seen its application given the same treatment at their tables.

Danny

I think the 3 HP limit is perfectly fair. They could make it 1 or 0, but what difference is 4 HP in the long run?

The issue (for me) is not the nominal HP gain, it's the gamist approach the presentation of the spell encourages.

I was wondering if others have seen its application given the same treatment at their tables.




When I first started the playtest, I had a player who was a Cleric, and he wanted to use Cure Minor Wounds to fully heal himself during a short rest. I would not allow that as it was a clear abuse of the unlimited cantrips, and luckily I found that the developers had thought of that and made it useless after 3 HP (I don't know why 3 exactly, but it seems to work). I think the presentation of the spell is specifically to catch that loophole and prevent this gamist behavior. It is still kind of an abuse to use it to take the entire party up to 4 HP, though.


I think the 3 HP limit is perfectly fair. They could make it 1 or 0, but what difference is 4 HP in the long run?

The issue (for me) is not the nominal HP gain, it's the gamist approach the presentation of the spell encourages.

I was wondering if others have seen its application given the same treatment at their tables.




When I first started the playtest, I had a player who was a Cleric, and he wanted to use Cure Minor Wounds to fully heal himself during a short rest. I would not allow that as it was a clear abuse of the unlimited cantrips, and luckily I found that the developers had thought of that and made it useless after 3 HP (I don't know why 3 exactly, but it seems to work). I think the presentation of the spell is specifically to catch that loophole and prevent this gamist behavior. It is still kind of an abuse to use it to take the entire party up to 4 HP, though.





why is this gameist (and if it is why is that bad) it sounds like the spell is being used how it is intended, if the spell cant be used that way why whould it even exist? its like saying that waiting to use a fireball untill there are 5 targets is gameist, while useing it only on one is not.

the purpose of a healing cantrip is to heal cheaply.
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
why is this gameist (and if it is why is that bad) it sounds like the spell is being used how it is intended, if the spell cant be used that way why whould it even exist? its like saying that waiting to use a fireball untill there are 5 targets is gameist, while useing it only on one is not.

the purpose of a healing cantrip is to heal cheaply.

It's all in the approach to application.

Our characters are not present to the fact that Cure Minor Wounds affords them a single hit point. They're aware of a dedicated believer's ability to bring forth the curative powers of the divine in the form of minor miracles. The integrity of immersion is compromised when you view class capability through a meta lens, which sees your cleric behaving as though they exist in a video game and not within our shared story (which is infinitely more rich and 'alive').

The presentation of Cure Minor Wounds nurtures behavior that isn't consistent with the 'story' conceit of the game.

--

Our differing opinions on all that aren't what this thread is about. It's an inquiry specific to whether or not others have seen this behavior/scenario at their tables. 




Danny

When I first started the playtest, I had a player who was a Cleric, and he wanted to use Cure Minor Wounds to fully heal himself during a short rest. I would not allow that as it was a clear abuse of the unlimited cantrips, and luckily I found that the developers had thought of that and made it useless after 3 HP (I don't know why 3 exactly, but it seems to work). I think the presentation of the spell is specifically to catch that loophole and prevent this gamist behavior. It is still kind of an abuse to use it to take the entire party up to 4 HP, though.

I would much prefer that Cure Minor Wounds functioned as a ranged version of the August packet's Death's Door in that it merely stabilizes a dying ally.

I guess it would have to be retitled because there's nothing 'minor' about stabilizing the dying. LOL

Danny

why is this gameist (and if it is why is that bad) it sounds like the spell is being used how it is intended, if the spell cant be used that way why whould it even exist? its like saying that waiting to use a fireball untill there are 5 targets is gameist, while useing it only on one is not.

the purpose of a healing cantrip is to heal cheaply.

It's all in the approach to application.

Our characters are not present to the fact that Cure Minor Wounds affords them a single hit point. They're aware of a dedicated believer's ability to bring forth the curative powers of the divine in the form of minor miracles. The integrity of immersion is compromised when you view class capability through a meta lens, which sees your cleric behaving as though they exist in a video game and not within our shared story (which is infinitely more rich and 'alive').

The presentation of Cure Minor Wounds nurtures behavior that isn't consistent with the 'story' conceit of the game.

--

Our differing opinions on all that aren't what this thread is about. It's an inquiry specific to whether or not others have seen this behavior/scenario at their tables. 







cleric: "I have a cantrip that I can easily cast but only heals a little each time"
fighter: "ok use it a few times I am seriously hurt"
cleic: "sorry I cant, I can only heal one cut per day"
fighter:"huh, you said it was a cantirp, those are so easy you can do those all day...."

the characters know that its a spell that can be cast as often as you want, and that it heals a little. it in fact would be metagaming NOT to use this as many times as you can, unless your characters do not want to heal a fellow PC
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
It's an issue with any sort of at-will magic, that it stops feeling magical when you do it twelve times in a row. At least with a wizard, you have the excuse that it's entirely in character to exploit the laws of nature in a scientific manner, but for a devout character who is begging for a miracle, to do so repeatedly and with the expectation that it is infinitely reproduceable - yeah, that kind of pulls me out of the story.

The metagame is not the game.

It's an issue with any sort of at-will magic, that it stops feeling magical when you do it twelve times in a row. At least with a wizard, you have the excuse that it's entirely in character to exploit the laws of nature in a scientific manner, but for a devout character who is begging for a miracle, to do so repeatedly and with the expectation that it is infinitely reproduceable - yeah, that kind of pulls me out of the story.




in a certain campain that may be a issue but we are not talking about one campain we are talking about the game in general.

in your campain world the gods may get annoyed when a cleric uses healing magic too often but in mine the god wants it to be used more because each time its used the gods gains power.

the base game needs to work the as many people as possible, the base game should NOT assume that magic is rare, or that divine magic works one way (fluff wise) and arcane another.

 
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
the base game needs to work the as many people as possible, the base game should NOT assume that magic is rare, or that divine magic works one way (fluff wise) and arcane another.

The base game should also nurture immersion and anticipate the awkwardness presented by specific effects.

In the case of Cure Minor Wounds, a more elegant solution would be:

CURE MINOR WOUNDS
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a living creature within 50 feet of you that has 3 hit points or fewer. It regains 4 hit points.

This presentation solves everything; succeeds in getting you to the level of HP the spell potentially offers, maintains immersion, curbs the 'healhealheal' console-style gaming culture intrusion, and remains consistent with all of the other Cure Wounds spells (which offer Xd8 + MultipleOfFour). 

Danny

Think of the healing not as something they "cast 12 times". Think of it as a channeled ability that soothes a character but does not help them with any serious problems they may have. It makes sense for the Cleric to provide this service to their allies after a battle.

It's not that hard to make it not "a meta thing" if you're actually looking for creative imagery rather than just saying "it's like a video game" and crossing your arms.

EDIT: I mean, we ARE talking about HP, a mechanic SO META it can not even begin to be reconciled with things actually happening in the story unless you stretch a highly abstract description over every damn thing that happens to a character.
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)
Think of the healing not as something they "cast 12 times". Think of it as a channeled ability that soothes a character but does not help them with any serious problems they may have. It makes sense for the Cleric to provide this service to their allies after a battle.

It's not that hard to make it not "a meta thing" if you're actually looking for creative imagery rather than just saying "it's like a video game" and crossing your arms.

EDIT: I mean, we ARE talking about HP, a mechanic SO META it can not even begin to be reconciled with things actually happening in the story unless you stretch a highly abstract description over every damn thing that happens to a character.

Yes, we as seasoned game-players are able to finesse it away, but I'm looking at the playtest through the lens of bringing on a new generation of hobbyists. -- It occurs to us that the outcome engineering can be addressed in the narrative, but that's due to experience with various presentations. The current presentation is nurturing an approach that I'm positing isn't in the best interest of the game's conceits and expectations.

Danny

the base game needs to work the as many people as possible, the base game should NOT assume that magic is rare, or that divine magic works one way (fluff wise) and arcane another.

The base game should also nurture immersion and anticipate the awkwardness presented by specific effects.

In the case of Cure Minor Wounds, a more elegant solution would be:

CURE MINOR WOUNDS
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a living creature within 50 feet of you that has 3 hit points or fewer. It regains 4 hit points.

This presentation solves everything; succeeds in getting you to the level of HP the spell potentially offers, maintains immersion, curbs the 'healhealheal' console-style gaming culture intrusion, and remains consistent with all of the other Cure Wounds spells (which offer Xd8 + MultipleOfFour). 



This version would allow it to heal to 7 if the target is at 3, not to mention be much more powerful in combat

Also Cure Minor Wounds is hardly a "part the seas" miracle

This version would allow it to heal to 7 if the target is at 3, not to mention be much more powerful in combat.

I don't see an issue with a heal to 7 HP.

As it stands, a cleric can heal 1 HP and make a weapon attack every single round if there's someone beneath 3 HP and they want to.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to take away the Word of Power descriptor, so the cleric has to sacrifice their entire action to use it in combat?

Also Cure Minor Wounds is hardly a "part the seas" miracle

I never claimed that is was.

Being divine, it's miraculous nonetheless. 

Danny

There's also this as an option...

CURE MINOR WOUNDS
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a living creature within 50 feet of you that has 3 hit points or fewer. It now has 4 hit points.

Danny

There's also this version of the spell. It conveniently and neatly sidesteps any issue.



INFUSE WITH LIFE
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)

Effect: Choose a living creature within 50 feet of you. It gains 1d6 temporary hit points that last for one minute. Additionally, all bleed effects on the target end as if it just received magical healing. Someone may only be affected by this spell once every minute. 
Perhaps it's not the rules, but that your players just aren't interested in anything but presenting it as a gamist effort. It's not hard to say
"I kneel over each of my comrades in turn, channeling the essence of my divine god into them slowly over a period of time until they feel the warmth of life creep into them."

If they say
"I cast cure minor 12 times"

it's because they don't really care about immersion.

A spell that only needs to be cast once would simply hide the fact that the player doesn't care about immersion.

Also some people might find the purple prose version, even when varied each time, too boring to listen to. I don't think anyone at the tables I sit at want to hear a long version.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

There's also this version of the spell. It conveniently and neatly sidesteps any issue.

INFUSE WITH LIFE
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)

Effect: Choose a living creature within 50 feet of you. It gains 1d6 temporary hit points that last for one minute. Additionally, all bleed effects on the target end as if it just received magical healing. Someone may only be affected by this spell once every minute. 

I see two instances of time-tracking and the introduction of a mechanic that does not exist within the current iteration of the rules. That's a lot of rules for a cantrip (in my own opinion ).


Perhaps it's not the rules, but that your players just aren't interested in anything but presenting it as a gamist effort. It's not hard to say
"I kneel over each of my comrades in turn, channeling the essence of my divine god into them slowly over a period of time until they feel the warmth of life creep into them."

If they say
"I cast cure minor 12 times"

it's because they don't really care about immersion.

Or... they're new to the game, they're unfamiliar with the culture of D&D as a shared storytelling experience that relies on the rules solely for adjudication and conflict resolution (not for definition of capability), understand only that the spell is being presented as a spammable effect a la the video games they play, etc.

A spell that only needs to be cast once would simply hide the fact that the player doesn't care about immersion.

A spell that only needs to be cast once may do that, sure, but I recognize a beneficial side effect where all involved in that scenario 'win' by virtue of the neutrality of the spell's presentation and its respect for the style of gaming for all collaborating on the experience.

Danny

Your version would again be very powerful during combat
The proper implementation would be to leave as is, but add the sentence "This can be used during a short rest to heal every party member to 4 hp"

Tho it seems a bit unnecessary
I see two instances of time-tracking and the introduction of a mechanic that does not exist within the current iteration of the rules. That's a lot of rules for a cantrip (in my own opinion )..



I was going to say, "You could simplify it to 1d6 temp HP that last a minute (or an encounter)," but then I realized that temporary hit points don't yet exist in 5E.
In Pathfinder, they solved the potential issue of Cure Minor Wounds and at-will cantrips by replacing that spell with Stabilize. Instead of healing any damage, it just stabilizes anyone who is at negative hit points. I think they should do something similar here.
In Pathfinder, they solved the potential issue of Cure Minor Wounds and at-will cantrips by replacing that spell with Stabilize. Instead of healing any damage, it just stabilizes anyone who is at negative hit points. I think they should do something similar here.

Agreed. The August packet's Death's Door was perfect. They should return to that.

Danny

In Pathfinder, they solved the potential issue of Cure Minor Wounds and at-will cantrips by replacing that spell with Stabilize. Instead of healing any damage, it just stabilizes anyone who is at negative hit points. I think they should do something similar here.

Agreed. The August packet's Death's Door was perfect. They should return to that.




I joined after that spell was gone, but from the sounds of it this is the best solution.
I joined after that spell was gone, but from the sounds of it this is the best solution.

DEATH'S DOOR
Minor abjuration
The rune that death’s door creates on a creature’s body prevents that creature from slipping closer to the grave.
Effect: You touch a dying creature. It is stabilized.

Due to the fact that a Healer's Kit currently mimics the same function in anyone's hands, I'd meld Death's Door with Cure Minor Wounds to make it more useful to the cleric...

ARISE
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a dying creature within 50 feet of you. It regains 1 hit point.
 

Danny

If you want a fix for this particular cantrip just allow it to be used as a ritual out of combat that brings all party members up to 4 HP.

That way, you get the same effect, but with much better flavor.  In combat, using this cantrip repeatedly seems totally fine to me, out of combat it's really all in how you contemplate what the action is really like.  If he is doing it 12 times in a row, you can just roleplay it as one long chant/prayer for curative aid rather than 12 consecutive individual castings.   

Imagination can easily bridge the gap on this one. 
I do think the lack of a physical touch requirement makes this ability feel too good. I don't mind that the other Cure X Wounds spells have a short range, but the cantrip shouldn't act like a combat-rez from 50 feet away.

As a cantrip, I can't imagine making a cleric without it. Restore either a touch requirement or make the effect merely auto-stabilize, and I'd be satisfied with it.
Perhaps it's not the rules, but that your players just aren't interested in anything but presenting it as a gamist effort. It's not hard to say
"I kneel over each of my comrades in turn, channeling the essence of my divine god into them slowly over a period of time until they feel the warmth of life creep into them."

If they say
"I cast cure minor 12 times"

it's because they don't really care about immersion.

Or... they're new to the game, they're unfamiliar with the culture of D&D as a shared storytelling experience that relies on the rules solely for adjudication and conflict resolution (not for definition of capability), understand only that the spell is being presented as a spammable effect a la the video games they play, etc.



To me, as long as the players engage choices like whether they get revenge on a former NPC friend or forgive them, then I am not worried that they say they spam minor healing.

If such choices about revenge or other problematic moral issues are absent from play, then people saying they spam minor healing are the least of my worries.

A spell that only needs to be cast once would simply hide the fact that the player doesn't care about immersion.
A spell that only needs to be cast once may do that, sure, but I recognize a beneficial side effect where all involved in that scenario 'win' by virtue of the neutrality of the spell's presentation and its respect for the style of gaming for all collaborating on the experience.




I think it'd be better to outline this further as what you want as a customer than describe what you think the designers missed.

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

Due to the fact that a Healer's Kit currently mimics the same function in anyone's hands, I'd meld Death's Door with Cure Minor Wounds to make it more useful to the cleric... 

I've also seen cure minor wounds bringing downed PCs back and forth in a pingpong effect that trivialized healing. I think i would even prefer:

Cure Minor Wounds
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a creature within 50 feet of you. It becomes stabilized or regains 1 hit point if it was already stabilized.
 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Its target is supposed to be anyone with 3hp or fewer. I don't even see how you could even be affected by it more than once...
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
Due to the fact that a Healer's Kit currently mimics the same function in anyone's hands, I'd meld Death's Door with Cure Minor Wounds to make it more useful to the cleric... 

I've also seen cure minor wounds bringing downed PCs back and forth in a pingpong effect that trivialized healing. I think i would even prefer:

Cure Minor Wounds
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a creature within 50 feet of you. It becomes stabilized or regains 1 hit point if it was already stabilized.
 





Excellent suggestion! Though to be honest I haven't encountered any issues with the spell yet.
Cure Minor Wounds
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a creature within 50 feet of you. It becomes stabilized or regains 1 hit point if it was already stabilized.



Danny

Due to the fact that a Healer's Kit currently mimics the same function in anyone's hands, I'd meld Death's Door with Cure Minor Wounds to make it more useful to the cleric... 

I've also seen cure minor wounds bringing downed PCs back and forth in a pingpong effect that trivialized healing. I think i would even prefer:

Cure Minor Wounds
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a creature within 50 feet of you. It becomes stabilized or regains 1 hit point if it was already stabilized.
 




Someone will definitely argue that someone who is fine is technically stablized then use it for infinite spam heal
Its target is supposed to be anyone with 3hp or fewer. I don't even see how you could even be affected by it more than once...


Because it only heals 1 HP. First heal takes them to zero HP then adds one more HP from the spell. Then it can be used three more times (because it works on anyone with 3hp or less).

"In the game there is magic" - Orethalion

 

Only got words in my copy.

Due to the fact that a Healer's Kit currently mimics the same function in anyone's hands, I'd meld Death's Door with Cure Minor Wounds to make it more useful to the cleric... 

I've also seen cure minor wounds bringing downed PCs back and forth in a pingpong effect that trivialized healing. I think i would even prefer:

Cure Minor Wounds
Conjuration cantrip (word of power)
Your healing magic pulls a creature away from the brink of death.
Effect: Choose a creature within 50 feet of you. It becomes stabilized or regains 1 hit point if it was already stabilized.
 


Someone will definitely argue that someone who is fine is technically stablized then use it for infinite spam heal

Sad, but true.

Danny

I do think the lack of a physical touch requirement makes this ability feel too good. I don't mind that the other Cure X Wounds spells have a short range, but the cantrip shouldn't act like a combat-rez from 50 feet away.

As a cantrip, I can't imagine making a cleric without it. Restore either a touch requirement or make the effect merely auto-stabilize, and I'd be satisfied with it.



I just recently realized the healing spells are now ranged, and I'm not sure I agree with that. If anything, a ranged Cure Light Wounds should be a spell level higher than a touch Cure Light Wounds. Or else, maybe give the unarmored Clerics like Lightbringer a feature that allows any heaing spell to be cast at range, but the defensive Clerics have to get in the action to heal.
I do think the lack of a physical touch requirement makes this ability feel too good. I don't mind that the other Cure X Wounds spells have a short range, but the cantrip shouldn't act like a combat-rez from 50 feet away.

As a cantrip, I can't imagine making a cleric without it. Restore either a touch requirement or make the effect merely auto-stabilize, and I'd be satisfied with it.



I just recently realized the healing spells are now ranged, and I'm not sure I agree with that. If anything, a ranged Cure Light Wounds should be a spell level higher than a touch Cure Light Wounds. Or else, maybe give the unarmored Clerics like Lightbringer a feature that allows any heaing spell to be cast at range, but the defensive Clerics have to get in the action to heal.



heals not being ranged would mean every cleric would not only have to be melle to be a healer, but would have to be willing to give up their turn to do so, making the fact heals are minor actions words of power useless
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
I do think the lack of a physical touch requirement makes this ability feel too good. I don't mind that the other Cure X Wounds spells have a short range, but the cantrip shouldn't act like a combat-rez from 50 feet away.

As a cantrip, I can't imagine making a cleric without it. Restore either a touch requirement or make the effect merely auto-stabilize, and I'd be satisfied with it.



I just recently realized the healing spells are now ranged, and I'm not sure I agree with that. If anything, a ranged Cure Light Wounds should be a spell level higher than a touch Cure Light Wounds. Or else, maybe give the unarmored Clerics like Lightbringer a feature that allows any heaing spell to be cast at range, but the defensive Clerics have to get in the action to heal.



heals not being ranged would mean every cleric would not only have to be melle to be a healer, but would have to be willing to give up their turn to do so, making the fact heals are minor actions words of power useless



Not useless if there's an enemy in melee or they have a ranged weapon. Doesn't the fact that a Cleric can heal at range AND attack every turn strike anyone else as potentially overpowered?
Not useless if there's an enemy in melee or they have a ranged weapon. Doesn't the fact that a Cleric can heal at range AND attack every turn strike anyone else as potentially overpowered?

Not really. Their spells are a strictly limited resource, and I think it offers differentiation for things like the paladin's Lay on Hands.

Danny

I say just have it heal the characters up to 3 hit points (or even 4 hit points).

There isn't that much difference between 1 and 3 hit points - either way you will probably drop to another hit.  It avoids the 'spamming' issue.  And it leaves the spell still inferior to the other spells in the Cure series.


Carl


Not useless if there's an enemy in melee or they have a ranged weapon. Doesn't the fact that a Cleric can heal at range AND attack every turn strike anyone else as potentially overpowered?



No.  It strikes me as making them minimally useful.


Their attacks are weak compared to the other characters and healing barely makes up the difference.


Personally, I think their attacks need to be improved.

I'd add a status or debuff effect to Lance of Faith (or else increase its damage at levels three and five) and I'd give them a WoP cantrip that can be used to make their melee attack more useful (again - either a debuff or a damage boost).

Carl