So... Bye bye warlord?

The new L&L discusses changes to healing - apparently they're leanin towards stripping out HD and nonmagical healing from "core" and letting you add it back in with modules. Okay, fine. But if nonmagical healing isn't a core assumption, then an entire class centered around it seems very unlikely. (And I doubt the devs would fail to consider that if they had an awesome warlord class waiting in the wings.)

Am I reading too much in here, or does it sound like the coolest new class from 4e is getting left behind?

EDIT: A humble request: could we avoid a flamewar about nonmagical vs. magical healing in this thread? At this point I doubt either side is likely to be convinced, and it's near-certain that options will be provided to allow some degree of both in the final game. What's definitely still worth debating, IMHO, is how much of that nonmagic healing should be assumed by the Standard mechanics, and whether there's room for a class that's heavily reliant on something that looks to be a non-Standard module. (That is, if the game assumes that the party relies on magical healing, and a warlord can't provide magical healing, then I can't choose to play a warlord IN PLACE OF a cleric without applying at least a module or two.)

RE-EDIT: An update from the man himself:


@mikemearls: Only if you want it that way - you can include HD or such if no one wants to play a cleric/druid/bard etc.
@sleypy: Does warlord fall under etc?
@mikemearls: Warlord is looking like it will deal more in damage mitigation/prevention via defensive maneuvers.

 

So the warlord IS in the works, but WON'T focus on healing. Hrmmm. Potential fifth-wheel problem, but I guess it's good they're not abandoning the concept! 
Nothing could have killed what lingering enthusiasm I had for 5e faster than that article. 

It seems like Mearls has essentially given up on fixing the basic problems that afflicted 1e up to 3.5e. We're going to have mandatory, healbot clerics and we're going to be told we love it.

No thanks.

And yes, it does look like the warlord is going to be one of the odd men out.

 

"What is the sort of thing that I do care about is a failure to seriously evaluate what does and doesn't work in favor of a sort of cargo cult posturing. And yes, it's painful to read design notes columns that are all just "So D&D 3.5 sort of had these problems. We know people have some issues with them. What a puzzler! But we think we have a solution in the form of X", where X is sort of a half-baked version of an idea that 4e executed perfectly well and which worked fine." - Lesp

Ok even with the heal-bleh clerics Warlords maintain their signature abilities co-ordination and action grants, and I'm tired of people ignoring those.

That said 5e would be better off if it went back to surges for a variety of reasons, and even the feeble HD system is better than no non-magic healing, so don't interpret this as support for stripping the non-magic healing. 
The new L&L discusses changes to healing - apparently they're leanin towards stripping out HD and nonmagical healing from "core" and letting you add it back in with modules. Okay, fine. But if nonmagical healing isn't a core assumption, then an entire class centered around it seems very unlikely. (And I doubt the devs would fail to consider that if they had an awesome warlord class waiting in the wings.) Am I reading too much in here, or does it sound like the coolest new class from 4e is getting left behind?



Couldn't the Warlord still work by granting temporary HP to represent a temporary boost in morale/adrenaline/energy?
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The whole "no non-magical healing" thing is nonsensical-- if hit points are willpower, luck, and skill (as well as physical health), why should regaining hp require magic or bedrest, rather than renewed determination (perhaps from receiving a short pep-talk from a Warlord buddy)?
@Viking - yeah, the warlord COULD still work in a number of ways - but I doubt the people mad about HDs will be any happier about any other format for that class.
It's also well worth noting that the core of the warlord isn't healing, magical or otherwise, it's buffing and enabling.  I couldn't care less if they dropped the healing, as long as they keep some equivalent of giving your most damaging ally a massive buff, then allowing him to hit the target as your action.

THAT's the core of the Warlord, THAT's the innovation that it really brought to the table, and THAT's the thing that's most loved about it.  Lose that, and you've lost the warlord.  Lose its healing, and you really haven't.
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It's also well worth noting that the core of the warlord isn't healing, magical or otherwise, it's buffing and enabling.



I agree with that. I also think alot of the warlord's healing abilties would be alot less controversial if they gave temporary hit points, or were described as herbalism or medicine instead of cheerleader healing.
It's also well worth noting that the core of the warlord isn't healing, magical or otherwise, it's buffing and enabling.  I couldn't care less if they dropped the healing, as long as they keep some equivalent of giving your most damaging ally a massive buff, then allowing him to hit the target as your action.

THAT's the core of the Warlord, THAT's the innovation that it really brought to the table, and THAT's the thing that's most loved about it.  Lose that, and you've lost the warlord.  Lose its healing, and you really haven't.



I have my doubts that the developers will include non-magical buffs, from improved morale/good advice, when they won't seemingly allow regaining hp from improved morale/ a stirring speech-- but we will see.

I have also been wondering about a Warlord's action grants-- using the Warlord's action so another player can use their reaction to attack? The Warlord using their own reaction to grant a reaction attack? I don't see a lot of free actions being handed out in Next.
I mostly just hope that this situation is super last-ditch and they don't think that "most groups have rolled with that in the past without any real issues" is a legitimate general design principle. I've made all sorts of less-than-optimal situations work, including "it's pretty important for the party to include someone with this relatively narrow character type, or else bend things around not having that", but that's the kind of thing I'd hope that is seen as a "deal with", not a "design toward".
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The whole "no non-magical healing" thing is nonsensical--

It's almost as though they're taking a stand and finally making a real decision about default core: they're saying that HP are not just willpower and determination, and they're actually the structural integrity of your meat body. Personally, I couldn't be happier about that decision.

The metagame is not the game.

I mostly just hope that this situation is super last-ditch and they don't think that "most groups have rolled with that in the past without any real issues" is a legitimate general design principle. I've made all sorts of less-than-optimal situations work, including "it's pretty important for the party to include someone with this relatively narrow character type, or else bend things around not having that", but that's the kind of thing I'd hope that is seen as a "deal with", not a "design toward".



I have a feeling that a Next party is being developed with four roles in mind: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. Any other class (see Monk nad Barbarian) will be developed a a Fifth Man/Wheel-- meaning, they will operate more independently than the "core" four classes (Monk); they will be a narrower, more situationally useful version of one of those classes (Barbarian); or they will provide, for instance, half the fighting-in-a-monsters face of the fighter with half the healbot of the cleric (possibly paladin, or warlord).

I don't see any non-"core" class being designed as a really viable substitution.
The whole "no non-magical healing" thing is nonsensical--

It's almost as though they're taking a stand and finally making a real decision about default core: they're saying that HP are not just willpower and determination, and they're actually the structural integrity of your meat body. Personally, I couldn't be happier about that decision.




So, a character's "structural integrity" multiplies as they gain levels? A high level fighter has as much "meat" as a giant?
The whole "no non-magical healing" thing is nonsensical--

It's almost as though they're taking a stand and finally making a real decision about default core: they're saying that HP are not just willpower and determination, and they're actually the structural integrity of your meat body. Personally, I couldn't be happier about that decision.



So, if HP are the structural integrity of your meat body, how come you don't get any worse at hitting people until you run out of them entirely?  My verisimilitudes...
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So, a character's "structural integrity" multiplies as they gain levels? A high level fighter has as much "meat" as a giant?

A high-level character can sustain many wounds without dying, yes, even if one of those wounds would have been enough to fell a lesser mortal. That is one interpretation, which had held up until fourth edition came out. It is not the only interpretation, of course, but I have found it to be the most consistent one.
So, if HP are the structural integrity of your meat body, how come you don't get any worse at hitting people until you run out of them entirely?

Because this is a game, and we're trying to keep it playable by not modeling such complex interactions. Besides, how much fun would it be if you could never have a come-from-behind victory, because every fight was decided by the first solid hit? The game has never been particularly realistic, but this model is at least consistent.

The metagame is not the game.

HP was first explained to me as Stamina for hard dodging and Pain Tolerance to ignore multiple minor injuries.

It is like dodging Hadokens in Street Fighting. I can jump over and parry/FocusAttack Hadokens for a long time. But eventually I'll screw up and get hit. Especially as the match goes on and I get tired. If I avoided a lot of them, I I have a lot of HP. If I get caught quickly, I had few.

So a guy telling you to "shut up, you're not that tired/hurt" always worked for me and a warlord doing straight healing is fine to me.

But it wont be okay for others.

So any warlord class won't have its base mehanic in core. Which will be damning for its utility and inclusiveness.

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HPs are structural integrity makes little sense when they increase by level or when a small character has the same HPs as a medium one.
The impact of a weapon on a small character is greater than on a medium one, including the blood loss that will be lethal sooner, or the more fragile little bones.
instead of healing warlords could grant temporery hitpoints, or have a system to prevent damage in the first place.
I suposse some no-magic options could be possible.

- Squad hitpoints pool. When warlord train with allies and troops they can share a extra pool of hitpoints.

Maybe those extra hitpoints only can be used to avoid death but if allies or troops are K.O. they can´t fight again if they aren´t healed by othe means. 

- Counter-spelling walking field. Warlord has a special gift to be a innate counter-speeling. If a necromances use a fear spell, the allies have got a save bonus when warlord is near, when enchantress try a mind-affecting power allies have got save bonus because warlord is a "jinx" for enemies spellcasters and their powers is lightly weaker.


  

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Since the Warlord would never have been a core class, I"m not sure this means anything with regards to the Warlord.


Carl
The article just says HD are gone from core. HD had a sole purpouse: self-healing, and they were a poor solution for that as well.

How HD would have made the Warlord class more or less possible in 5E is beyond me. 
wow so hit points are morale and junk like that ok so giving the party cute puppies during combat increases hp lol what a joke. hit points are a measure of physical health to compare real life to a fantasy game in this aspect is silly. the core of any rpg since day 1 has been you have hp and they go up as you level thats the same for video games and table top rpgs to change that into something its not is eyerollingly silly. morale shouldnt increase hit points only first aid and magic healing should fix hit points
They do not need to remove hit dice as a healing mechanism to make healing exclusive to clerics in the basic edition of the game. That would maintain the integrity of the warlord based mechanic in the future. All they need to do is change the healing spells to restore hit dice based on the character. Later on you can add warlords restoring hit dice. You could even implement second winds restoring hit dice.
they need to do away with second wind as written. it should give combat bonuses based on low hp to certain classes not heal how do you regenerate health after your exhausted without magic
There is no need to change the second wind mechanic if it was added later on. It is not going to show up under the basic, or even the core rules, because 4E leaves a bad taste for some players. It is more important to build in the mechanics to support it in the future, so 4E players can enjoy their style of play.
 The real world second wind includes sudden cell repair...  when someone shows me how hit point loss does anything but a piss poor job at describing wounds, then we should start to worry about second winds interaction with that.

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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
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they need to do away with second wind as written. it should give combat bonuses based on low hp to certain classes not heal how do you regenerate health after your exhausted without magic


Have you watched Die Hard?  Know that scene where he's lost his shoes, they've shot out all the windows, and he beats a couple of guys  then takes a moment to catch his breath and bandage his feet, before going on exactly as before?

Second wind, right there.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
die hard is not dnd or any other rpg. now bandaging wounds would stop blood loss stopping lowering of hp for existing wounds. but it wont heal him for how long since your movie refrence is closer to real life than a game
I find it far easier to imagine HP as plot armor than as any sort of meaningful real wounds:

Until you are at or below 0 there are no adverse effects. 

You're not slowed down or less effective in any way. 

You maintain 100% effecacy until you keel over. 

There is seldom any damage due to ongoing blood loss and when it does happen it is an exception with specific rules. 

Swords and axes, arrows and daggers are either instantly lethal or cause a small easily ignored wound.

An experienced warrior can take a beating that would fell an elephant and fight on.

You don't get worse by choosing to exert yourself when injured.

As you level, you eventually become so hardy that you can stand up and dust yourself off after falls of 50 or a hundred or more feet.

All of this non debilatating real damage heals up slowly, depending on your viewpoint it should take from overnight to weeks of bedrest to get over wounds that cause you no inconvience at all.

I like HP as plot armor because it makes sense.  It also leaves space for truely debilitating injury rules at 0 HP or with single blows of damage that exceed a certain threshold.  I can see those types of injuries requiring magical healing or extended rest or both.  But not the bleeding exempt non-debilitating wounds represented by HP.  It just doesn't make sense.
die hard is not dnd or any other rpg. now bandaging wounds would stop blood loss stopping lowering of hp for existing wounds. but it wont heal him for how long since your movie refrence is closer to real life than a game


This is a heroic swords and sorcery game, not a reality simulator.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Since the Warlord would never have been a core class, I"m not sure this means anything with regards to the Warlord.


Carl


Agreed. Since they are refering to the non-magical healing as being an Advanced Rule, the Warlord would simply be part of said Advanced Rule. Or it could mean that Warlords grant Temp HP, but those Temp HP are permanent if using the Advanced Rule. Or it means they will have the rules ready when the design the class, so the Class makes sense.

wow so hit points are morale and junk like that ok so giving the party cute puppies during combat increases hp lol what a joke. hit points are a measure of physical health to compare real life to a fantasy game in this aspect is silly. the core of any rpg since day 1 has been you have hp and they go up as you level thats the same for video games and table top rpgs to change that into something its not is eyerollingly silly. morale shouldnt increase hit points only first aid and magic healing should fix hit points

Nice to see that you've been happy houseruling D&D since the beginning. As so many have pointed out, while the rules have always been self-contradicting, HP has always included non-physical health. Your view that non-magical healing is silly just reinforces that you have just gotten used to your own houserules, and would rather D&D conform to them than reassert the original premise that HP are completely abstract, and has plenty of room in CORE for both magical and non-magical healing.

I am saddened greatly by this article. MM has evidently forgotten a major core philosophy regarding HP.

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Since the Warlord would never have been a core class, I"m not sure this means anything with regards to the Warlord.

I agree. The core is D&D in its most basic distilled form, with no Warlord or nonmagical healing. That doesn't mean they won't come up in standard D&D.

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The new L&L discusses changes to healing - apparently they're leanin towards stripping out HD and nonmagical healing from "core" and letting you add it back in with modules. Okay, fine. But if nonmagical healing isn't a core assumption, then an entire class centered around it seems very unlikely. (And I doubt the devs would fail to consider that if they had an awesome warlord class waiting in the wings.) Am I reading too much in here, or does it sound like the coolest new class from 4e is getting left behind?



Why would it not be included?  All classes are optional modules, so the inclusion of the warlord as an optional class to be used if the non-magical healing module is enacted makes perfect sense.
I know the warlord was never going to be in Basic. But if, as it sounds, they're now deciding that Standard won't include nonmagical healing, it seems very unlikely that they'd include an entire class reliant on a module.
wow so hit points are morale and junk like that ok so giving the party cute puppies during combat increases hp lol what a joke. hit points are a measure of physical health to compare real life to a fantasy game in this aspect is silly. the core of any rpg since day 1 has been you have hp and they go up as you level thats the same for video games and table top rpgs to change that into something its not is eyerollingly silly. morale shouldnt increase hit points only first aid and magic healing should fix hit points



This is only true in 2E, any other edition and you were house ruling...Smile
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The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
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This doesn't worry me for the Warlord/Marshal. That class continues to be in as much peril as before, in my mind, because this is edition about extracting the coolest bits out of a class and condensing those into a whole without the junk -- and the healing was not what made the Warlord cool.

That said, what I'm starting to think now is that the Warlord will be a class included with the Tactical module. A lot of what the warlord was good for depended on the particulars of the battlefield in a way that might not be possible without a grid and minis. Especially with healing abilities that aren't magical being rejected from the basic and standard. It's one less thing they could do regularly.
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I see no reason why the warlord still can't be part of 5e.    I don't think it will look like the 4e version,but there are still many ways to make it work.   

I think the warlord/Marshal will be a warrior/bard type.   Perhaps he will have magical healing options.  



I know the warlord was never going to be in Basic. But if, as it sounds, they're now deciding that Standard won't include nonmagical healing, it seems very unlikely that they'd include an entire class reliant on a module.



That said, what I'm starting to think now is that the Warlord will be a class included with the Tactical module. A lot of what the warlord was good for depended on the particulars of the battlefield in a way that might not be possible without a grid and minis. Especially with healing abilities that aren't magical being rejected from the basic and standard. It's one less thing they could do regularly.



Tha's my greatest fear for the Walords; they'll only function as part of the advanced rules. That's dirty modding at its worst.


Don't get your panties in a wad people, they have stated, on multiple occasions, that we will see the Warlord. Mike HIMSELF even defended it in a hangout video. So lets cool our jets.
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If the Warlord isn't a Cleric alternative it's not a Warlord and I don't want it.
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