Triggered mana abilities

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I control Crypt Ghast with an ice counter on it thanks to Rimefeather Owl. If I tap a Swamp for mana, can I use the additional to pay a cost of ?
Rules Advisor
yes
proud member of the 2011 community team
yes


Is the question "Is the mana added by the ghast snow ?" ?

If it is, the answer is no, right ?

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

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why not?
the Ghast is Snow, it generates mana, so it generates Snow mana
proud member of the 2011 community team
yes


Is the question "Is the mana added by the ghast snow ?" ?

If it is, the answer is no, right ?



The owl puts a counter on the ghast, the ghast is now snow, the ghast makes mana and can spend it as snow so long as it has a snow counter on it

Pretty sure Enigma is right on this
One qualification, it can be used to pay a cost of provided the Owl is still on the battlefield (or at least a Rimefeather Owl, doesn't have to be the same one). By itself, the counter does nothing; there needs to be an ability around that makes it do something.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
One qualification, it can be used to pay a cost of provided the Owl is still on the battlefield (or at least a Rimefeather Owl, doesn't have to be the same one). By itself, the counter does nothing; there needs to be an ability around that makes it do something.



Why?

Counters don't usually change function just because their cause of creation goes away, kinda the point of putting on the counter.

If a card says give target creature a +1/+1 counter and than the card that made that counter goes away, the +1/+1 counter doesnt cease to function

So if a different type of counter is put on a creature (like one that makes the creature "snow"), why would it stop being a snow creature when the source of the counter leaves?

There are several types of counters in the game, why would this particular type function different from the others? I know of no other counters that stop functioning when their source leaves play
"Ice Counter" has no rules meaning whatsoever (besides being a counter)
only the last ability of the Owl ("Permanents with ice counters on them are snow.") gives the ice counter anything to do

now, if it was worded like Xathrid Gorgon and its "petrification counter" you'd have a better point.
while the counter itself still does nothing, the "petrification" is part of the activated ability, so it will still function if the Gorgon is no longer on the battlefield (it will also still be "petrified" if the counter is removed)
proud member of the 2011 community team
why not?
the Ghast is Snow, it generates mana, so it generates Snow mana


Yeah, well, forgot about the owl... :P

My mistake.

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

One qualification, it can be used to pay a cost of provided the Owl is still on the battlefield (or at least a Rimefeather Owl, doesn't have to be the same one). By itself, the counter does nothing; there needs to be an ability around that makes it do something.



Why?

Counters don't usually change function just because their cause of creation goes away, kinda the point of putting on the counter.

If a card says give target creature a +1/+1 counter and than the card that made that counter goes away, the +1/+1 counter doesnt cease to function

So if a different type of counter is put on a creature (like one that makes the creature "snow"), why would it stop being a snow creature when the source of the counter leaves?

There are several types of counters in the game, why would this particular type function different from the others? I know of no other counters that stop functioning when their source leaves play

Counters, by themselves, are just markers that do nothing. There must be some reason for the counters to have an effect on the gamestate.

±X/±Y counters have an effect on the game because the rules define the changes the counters make to the gamestate. Because the rules define what they do, those counters don't need an effect from a spell or ability to do anything.

Counters with a name don't do anything unless an effect from a spell or ability lets them. Most often, the counter is a marker to tell a particular effect that the effect does (or does not)  apply to the object it is on. Ice counters are firmly in this class. Once an Ice counter is placed on a permanent, any effect that looks for something with an Ice counter on to affect will affect objects with a counter. Since counters witht the same name are indistinguishable, it doesn't matter whether the effect arises from the source of the counter or no.

In this case, the Crypt Ghast has an Ice counter on it, placed by a Rimefeather Owl.  If another object with an ability that cares about Ice counters appears - say, Rimescale Dragon - then the effect of the Dragon's third ability will apply to the Crypt Ghast. If the Dragon's ability is used to add ain Ice counter to a permanent, that permanent then becomes subject to both the Dragon's ability and the Owl's.

As with continuous effects from any other static ability, the effect only applies as long as the object is in the relevant zone. (For permanents, this is the battlefield unless a rule or ability specifies otherwise.)

The other main function counters have is fuel for the cost of abilities. The Kamigawa Myojins each have an activated ability where the cost to activate includes "Remove a Divinity counter from ~this~," as just one example.

Sometimes the duration of a continuous effect from the resolution of a spell or ability applies as long as the counter remains on the affected object, but ends when the counter is removed. Quicksilver Fountain is an example of this. Once the flood counter is removed, the land stops being an Island, even if it somehow gains a flood counter from an effect other than the resolution of another triggered ability of that or any other Fountain. (The Myojins being indestructible are not - that effect comes from a static ability, so the ability is always functioning as long as the Myojin is on the battlefield. If the Myojin loses its Divinity counter, then later gets another one, the Myojin is indestructible again.)
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Thanks for the answer, all. I just have one more question. If Rimefeather Owl leaves the battlefield after the mana is produced but before it's spent, is it still snow mana?
Rules Advisor
See how on Aven Mimeomancer, the counter seem to have a meaning ?

Actually it doesn't:
1 A counter with a specific name is put on it because it's about memory issues: after some turns the Mimeomancer may have "transformed" a couple creatures into 3/1 flying "birds", but how to differentiate those who haven't been changed (yet)? Put a counter on it.
2 What if the counter is moved to another creature? Well, without the explicit duration tying the "bird" status of the "changed" creature, the creature would still be 3/1 even without the counter but then... memory issues again. So it ties the fact the creature is a 3/1 flier to the counter.

Truth is, apart from the poison and +X/+Y counters (X and Y being entire numbers, positive or negative), counters don't have any meaning by them (I'm currently preparing myself to get corrected anyway :P).

Thanks for the answer, all. I just have one more question. If Rimefeather Owl leaves the battlefield after the mana is produced but before it's spent, is it still snow mana?


If it is already in your pool, it already has its characteristics. Not exactly the same but if you tap your swamp for a black mana and I bounce it before you spend it, is it still black?

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

Thanks for the answer, all. I just have one more question. If Rimefeather Owl leaves the battlefield after the mana is produced but before it's spent, is it still snow mana?

Tough one.

107.4h The snow mana symbol {S} represents one generic mana in a cost. This generic mana can be paid with one mana of any type produced by a snow permanent (see rule 205.4f). Effects that reduce the amount of generic mana you pay don’t affect {S} costs. (There is no such thing as “snow mana”; “snow” is not a type of mana.)

Of course, «snow mana» doesn't exist, but the question as to when exactly do we evalute the provenance of this mana remains. This is NOT comparable to «black mana» since mana CAN have a color, but can't have/be snow. 


So the question is «Is snow mana mana that was produced by a permanent that was snow when it produced it OR mana produced by a permanent that is snow as we spent it?»  

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

Truth is, apart from the poison and +X/+Y counters (X and Y being entire numbers, positive or negative), counters don't have any meaning by them (I'm currently preparing myself to get corrected anyway :P).


(of course you will be corrected!)


Loyalty counters have special meaning too.

[<o>]
Loyalty counters have special meaning too.

No, they don't. Need proof? Find me a RULE saying they do!

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

interesting, 704.5i doesn't mention counters, just "loyalty"

I thought I had you there ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
Loyalty counters have special meaning too.

No, they don't. Need proof? Find me a RULE saying they do!




306.5. Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have.
(...)
306.5c. The loyalty of a planeswalker on the battlefield is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it.

[<o>]
Some cards do care about some counters:
Some cards (the Snow cycle) care about the fact that counters named «Ice» are on some permanents, but ice counters have no meaning by themselves.
Some cards (planeswalkers) care about the fact that counters named «Loyalty» are on some permanents, but loyalty counters have no meaning by themselves, as stated by 306.5c.

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

121.1. (...) Counters are not objects and have no characteristics...

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

What about:


119.3c. Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from that planeswalker.


If you're arguing 306.5c and 119.3c don't count, then I'm going to dispute the whole "counters with special meaning" concept.



121.1. (...) Counters are not objects and have no characteristics...


Irrelevant.

[<o>]
Back to serious stuff:
If Rimefeather Owl leaves the battlefield after the mana is produced but before it's spent, is it still snow mana?



If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

if Cavern of Souls leaves the battlefield before its mana is spent, can it still be only used on creatures?
does it still make spells uncounterable?
proud member of the 2011 community team

Yes.
106.6. Some spells or abilities that produce mana restrict how that mana can be spent, or have an additional effect that affects the spell or ability that mana is spent on. This doesn’t affect the mana’s type.

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

Mana doesn't have snowness. It just has a source. If you want to spend mana whose source is Crypt Ghast to pay a cost, Crypt Ghast must have the snow supertype. Merely having had that supertype previously isn't enough.

By contrast, the restriction and added benefit of the mana from Cavern of Souls are set as part of the resolution of the mana ability. It doesn't matter what happens to the Cavern permanent after the ability has resolved.
Got it! From Coldsnap FAQ:

When paying for {S}, it matters only if the permanent that produced the mana had the supertype snow at the time that mana was produced. If it did but subsequently lost the supertype, that mana can still be used to pay for {S}. On the other hand, if it wasn't a snow permanent when it produced the mana but subsequently gained the supertype, that mana can't be used to pay for {S}.
  

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)



Why?

Counters don't usually change function just because their cause of creation goes away, kinda the point of putting on the counter.

Exactly wrong. A counter is nothing more than a marker on a permanent. By default, they have no (other) function to change; they only do what some effect specifically says they do.

You mention power- and toughness-altering counters, but those (along with poison and arguably loyalty counters) are the exception, not the rule.

This is the number one source of confusion regarding counters - assuming they must be more complicated than they are, more specifically assuming they have built-in functionality when they don't.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011


Why?

Counters don't usually change function just because their cause of creation goes away, kinda the point of putting on the counter.

Exactly wrong. A counter is nothing more than a marker on a permanent. By default, they have no (other) function to change; they only do what some effect specifically says they do.

You mention power- and toughness-altering counters, but those (along with poison and arguably loyalty counters) are the exception, not the rule.

This is the number one source of confusion regarding counters - assuming they must be more complicated than they are, more specifically assuming they have built-in functionality when they don't.

I usually try to nip this problem in the bud by teaching players that no counter has 'functionality' at all: they're all just markers that effects and the game rules employ to do whatever it is they're trying to do.

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Got it! From Coldsnap FAQ:

When paying for {S}, it matters only if the permanent that produced the mana had the supertype snow at the time that mana was produced. If it did but subsequently lost the supertype, that mana can still be used to pay for {S}. On the other hand, if it wasn't a snow permanent when it produced the mana but subsequently gained the supertype, that mana can't be used to pay for {S}.
  



Thank you! That question would have greatly bothered me otherwise.