Best two-weapon warrior?

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I'm starting a new D&D adventure and I was wondering which class offered the best options in terms of dmg dealing when wielding two weapons because I've always wanted to play a two-weapon warrior but I never know which class to pick wether it's whirling slayer, ranger, scout, tempest fighter etc...

Thanks in advance  
Ranger. Read the handbook here (wiki): 

community.wizards.com/charop/wiki/Ranger...
 
I'm starting a new D&D adventure and I was wondering which class offered the best options in terms of dmg dealing when wielding two weapons because I've always wanted to play a two-weapon warrior but I never know which class to pick wether it's whirling slayer, ranger, scout, tempest fighter etc...

Thanks in advance  



Ranger|Cleric >= Ranger >= Whirling Barbarian >= Tempest Fighter

Scout is kinda all over the place depending on level range.



Hybrid Ranger|Cleric is more effective at two-weapon fighting than a ranger, or more effective of a class, overall, than a ranger?

I agree with Ranger|Cleric being a better overall character, but in terms of pure damage doesn't a straight Ranger surpass it (even if it isnt worth the loss of the hybrid additions)?
So strength/wisdom build, melee striker + off-leader support with high AC with battle cleric's lore?
There's a Cleric l5 daily that gives the target (a weapon, I do believe) +str mod for the rest of the enc. Among other things, clerics can self-buff a lot, and then abuse the crap out of it with twinstrike. 
 
Here's a build I like:

Key features:

Dragonborn
Fighter|Ranger hybrid.
MC whatever. (Master of the Fist is a good one, so is executioner)
PP: Shock trooper
Hybrid Talent: Tempest style.  

Key feats:
Improved Tempest Style.
Draconic Arrogance.
Cunning Stalker.
Two Weapon etc.

Fighters have several stance powers that allow you to push a target 1 and shift 1 adjacent every time you hit them. Drac arrogance gives you STR mod bonus every time you push or prone something. Take as few fighter encounters as possible (they have several no-action, free-action, and minor action powers, so get those) and load up on ranger multi-attacks and off-action powers. If weaponized/powered properly, you can push the enemy all over the map, doing STR mod bonus every time you hit. You preferably want to use an offhand weapon (because you get insane bonus damage with them.) Short Swords are actually good for this build.
Several hybrids combining a two weapon fighting class with either another two weapon fighting class or cleric or rogue are also better than the pure barb. Hybrids including the ranger are probably better than pure rangers.
There's a Cleric l5 daily that gives the target (a weapon, I do believe) +str mod for the rest of the enc. Among other things, clerics can self-buff a lot, and then abuse the crap out of it with twinstrike. 
 
Here's a build I like:

Key features:

Dragonborn
Fighter|Ranger hybrid.
MC whatever. (Master of the Fist is a good one, so is executioner)
PP: Shock trooper
Hybrid Talent: Tempest style.  

Key feats:
Improved Tempest Style.
Draconic Arrogance.
Cunning Stalker.
Two Weapon etc.

Fighters have several stance powers that allow you to push a target 1 and shift 1 adjacent every time you hit them. Drac arrogance gives you STR mod bonus every time you push or prone something. Take as few fighter encounters as possible (they have several no-action, free-action, and minor action powers, so get those) and load up on ranger multi-attacks and off-action powers. If weaponized/powered properly, you can push the enemy all over the map, doing STR mod bonus every time you hit. You preferably want to use an offhand weapon (because you get insane bonus damage with them.) Short Swords are actually good for this build.

In which book is the draconic arogance feat?
Martial Power.

Edit:  Also, I'm supposed to tell you that despite not having DDI, you can search the for stuff in compendium and it will give you the source.

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

Martial Power.

Edit:  Also, I'm supposed to tell you that despite not having DDI, you can search the for stuff in compendium and it will give you the source.

Oh right, totally forgot.
There's a Cleric l5 daily that gives the target (a weapon, I do believe) +str mod for the rest of the enc.



Augment of War (Cleric L5 Daily) targets an ally's weapon, not your own.
 
However, Weapon of the Gods (Cleric L5 Daily) will work on your own weapon and opens up radiant shennanigans.
There's a Cleric l5 daily that gives the target (a weapon, I do believe) +str mod for the rest of the enc.



Augment of War (Cleric L5 Daily) targets an ally's weapon, not your own.
 


Pass ally weapon.  Buff weapon.  Take weapon back off ally.  Done.  And you've only used a turn's worth of actions!

In all seriousness, this would work by RAW I think, and might be worthwhile if you have a bit of preptime.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Both. It's basically a direct improvement.


And which stat would be the best secondary for a Ranger|Cleric, wisdom or dexterity? What weapons would he wield? And which Paragon Path would he take, Tactical Warpriest according to you?
Both. It's basically a direct improvement.


And which stat would be the best secondary for a Ranger|Cleric, wisdom or dexterity? What weapons would he wield? And which Paragon Path would he take, Tactical Warpriest according to you?


1.This has a lot of "depends on..." but one thing i did for my Longtooth Shifter Ranger|Cleric was went for a stat array of 17+2 STR/15 DEX/13+2 WIS. This allows me to qualify for Superior will in Heroic, gives me a well rounded set of NADs and gives me access to a decent DEX mod to use with Agile Scale Armor. It also allows me to qualify for Scale Spec. in paragon. You then get to boost your STR/WIS at every opportunity because most, if not all of the riders from both classes function off WIS.

2.Superior Double weapon of some kind. Double sword for single enchant Light Blade. Cahulaks(?) if you are looking for thrown/flail/reach single enchant or Spiked Chain Prof. for flail and reach/MoS/Flail Ex/Lighning Flail/Battle Awareness/PoS.

3.I'll let other comment here but TacPriest, Paragon of Victory and another 1 or 2  that escape me right now would be best.
 
Both. It's basically a direct improvement.


And which stat would be the best secondary for a Ranger|Cleric, wisdom or dexterity? What weapons would he wield? And which Paragon Path would he take, Tactical Warpriest according to you?


1.This has a lot of "depends on..." but one thing i did for my Longtooth Shifter Ranger|Cleric was went for a stat array of 17+2 STR/15 DEX/13+2 WIS. This allows me to qualify for Superior will in Heroic, gives me a well rounded set of NADs and gives me access to a decent DEX mod to use with Agile Scale Armor. It also allows me to qualify for Scale Spec. in paragon. You then get to boost your STR/WIS at every opportunity because most, if not all of the riders from both classes function off WIS.

2.Superior Double weapon of some kind. Double sword for single enchant Light Blade. Cahulaks(?) if you are looking for thrown/flail/reach single enchant or Spiked Chain Prof. for flail and reach/MoS/Flail Ex/Lighning Flail/Battle Awareness/PoS.

3.I'll let other comment here but TacPriest, Paragon of Victory and another 1 or 2  that escape me right now would be best.
 


Nice array on the shifter.

So heavy blade is out the door? Also how can you get both Spiked Chain Training and Battle Awareness? That's not possible.
I only recommend the Spiked chain if going for a proning flail build. In this case you just go with Weapon Proficiency Spiked Chain which does not take up your MC but also does not allow for all the other goodies to be added such as Light-Blades/Off-hand/Stout and so on and so forth.

Pure striker Rang|Cleric would most likely be best with the Double Sword just to save the troble of keeping up with two items.
Frost Double Sword w/Frost Package. 
I only recommend the Spiked chain if going for a proning flail build. In this case you just go with Weapon Proficiency Spiked Chain which does not take up your MC but also does not allow for all the other goodies to be added such as Light-Blades/Off-hand/Stout and so on and so forth.

Pure striker Rang|Cleric would most likely be best with the Double Sword just to save the troble of keeping up with two items.
Frost Double Sword w/Frost Package. 



Its also not a double weapon without Spike Chain Training, which doesn't make it a particularly good choice for a two weapon build.
I only recommend the Spiked chain if going for a proning flail build. In this case you just go with Weapon Proficiency Spiked Chain which does not take up your MC but also does not allow for all the other goodies to be added such as Light-Blades/Off-hand/Stout and so on and so forth.

Pure striker Rang|Cleric would most likely be best with the Double Sword just to save the troble of keeping up with two items.
Frost Double Sword w/Frost Package. 



Its also not a double weapon without Spike Chain Training, which doesn't make it a particularly good choice for a two weapon build.


Yeah. Don't know how i completely missed that one. it's a 2-Handed weapon so it can't be used for your ranger powers which require you to be wielding two weapons. So if you wanted to do the Proning Flail Build you would be better off with Cahulaks, Spiked Chain Training, 2 Alhulaks(requires hybrid talent 2 Weapon Fighting) or be a Fighter|Cleric. 
... or leave the proning to the defender, and focus on what a ranger is good at.
... or leave the proning to the defender, and focus on what a ranger is good at.


Or that.
I'd argue that in early heroic, a dwarf or a mul would be the best two weapon fighters thanks to Dwarven Weapon training giving you a +2 damage per hit and giving you access to all axes, very feat economic. Not to mention, self-sustaining powers such as incredible toughness and 2nd wind as a minor will make you a tough Cleric|Ranger. They deal the most damage under level 8 I'd wager. And If you go full cheese by dual wielding Gouge and Gauntlet axe, than there's little contest.
I'd argue that in early heroic, a dwarf or a mul would be the best two weapon fighters thanks to Dwarven Weapon training giving you a +2 damage per hit and giving you access to all axes, very feat economic. Not to mention, self-sustaining powers such as incredible toughness and 2nd wind as a minor will make you a tough Cleric|Ranger. They deal the most damage under level 8 I'd wager. And If you go full cheese by dual wielding Gouge and Gauntlet axe, than there's little contest.


I may be missing something but how are you wielding a Gouge(2-handed superior) and wielding a Gauntlet Axe. You can wear a gauntlet axe and carry a gouge but as far as two weapon powers you need to be able to attack with your off hand weapon which you cannot do.
I'd argue that in early heroic, a dwarf or a mul would be the best two weapon fighters thanks to Dwarven Weapon training giving you a +2 damage per hit and giving you access to all axes, very feat economic. Not to mention, self-sustaining powers such as incredible toughness and 2nd wind as a minor will make you a tough Cleric|Ranger. They deal the most damage under level 8 I'd wager. And If you go full cheese by dual wielding Gouge and Gauntlet axe, than there's little contest.


I may be missing something but how are you wielding a Gouge(2-handed superior) and wielding a Gauntlet Axe. You can wear a gauntlet axe and carry a gouge but as far as two weapon powers you need to be able to attack with your off hand weapon which you cannot do.



Yeah this is an "innovation" of the CharOp board. Basically if you read the description of the Gauntlet Axe, it says that it can be enchanted as either a weapon slot item or an arm slot item. So some people equip it in their armslot while wielding a gouge with two hands. They twin strike with gouge and gauntlet axe, which is apparently legal RAW. Obviously very cheesy though.

But replace Gouge with Waraxe and my point still stands.
I'd argue that in early heroic, a dwarf or a mul would be the best two weapon fighters thanks to Dwarven Weapon training giving you a +2 damage per hit and giving you access to all axes, very feat economic. Not to mention, self-sustaining powers such as incredible toughness and 2nd wind as a minor will make you a tough Cleric|Ranger. They deal the most damage under level 8 I'd wager. And If you go full cheese by dual wielding Gouge and Gauntlet axe, than there's little contest.


I may be missing something but how are you wielding a Gouge(2-handed superior) and wielding a Gauntlet Axe. You can wear a gauntlet axe and carry a gouge but as far as two weapon powers you need to be able to attack with your off hand weapon which you cannot do.



Yeah this is an "innovation" of the CharOp board. Basically if you read the description of the Gauntlet Axe, it says that it can be enchanted as either a weapon slot item or an arm slot item. So some people equip it in their armslot while wielding a gouge with two hands. They twin strike with gouge and gauntlet axe, which is apparently legal RAW. Obviously very cheesy though.

But replace Gouge with Waraxe and my point still stands.


Early on i'll concede straight Dwarf Ranger with Twin War Axes will win out but in the long run maybe not. definitely not so for the Ranger|Cleric though.

As to the other bit. That is not RAW and should not be sold as such. If it is enchanted as a weapon or arm slot item you need to be wielding it in order to make an attack with it and at the point of making any multi-target attack while wielding the gouge you are not wielding the Gauntlet axe. It is not an "innovation" it is outright cheating. If a DM wishes to houserule otherwise that is their call.
I'd argue that in early heroic, a dwarf or a mul would be the best two weapon fighters thanks to Dwarven Weapon training giving you a +2 damage per hit and giving you access to all axes, very feat economic. Not to mention, self-sustaining powers such as incredible toughness and 2nd wind as a minor will make you a tough Cleric|Ranger. They deal the most damage under level 8 I'd wager. And If you go full cheese by dual wielding Gouge and Gauntlet axe, than there's little contest.


I may be missing something but how are you wielding a Gouge(2-handed superior) and wielding a Gauntlet Axe. You can wear a gauntlet axe and carry a gouge but as far as two weapon powers you need to be able to attack with your off hand weapon which you cannot do.



Yeah this is an "innovation" of the CharOp board. Basically if you read the description of the Gauntlet Axe, it says that it can be enchanted as either a weapon slot item or an arm slot item. So some people equip it in their armslot while wielding a gouge with two hands. They twin strike with gouge and gauntlet axe, which is apparently legal RAW. Obviously very cheesy though.

But replace Gouge with Waraxe and my point still stands.


Early on i'll concede straight Dwarf Ranger with Twin War Axes will win out but in the long run maybe not. definitely not so for the Ranger|Cleric though.

As to the other bit. That is not RAW and should not be sold as such. If it is enchanted as a weapon or arm slot item you need to be wielding it in order to make an attack with it and at the point of making any multi-target attack while wielding the gouge you are not wielding the Gauntlet axe. It is not an "innovation" it is outright cheating. If a DM wishes to houserule otherwise that is their call.



Hey no need to tell me, it's way too cheesy for my standards anyway. What's your argument for why Dwarf Ranger are great early heroic but not Dwarf Ranger|Cleric in early heroic? I agree that it's not true in the long run of course.
I meant in the long run specifically for the Dwarf Ranger|Cleric with Two axes.
Dwarf Ranger|Cleric needs DWT(for the axes and damage), and hybrid talent for TWF and keeping up with two seperate weapons. You could just go with a double lightblade, cunning stalker and LBE. Six of one half dozen of the other. Double Lightbalde leaves your HT open for prime shot goodies in paragon. All doable with the Dwarf or MuL to add the durability factor though.
It is not an "innovation" it is outright cheating. If a DM wishes to houserule otherwise that is their call.

It is legel. Gauntlet Axe leaves your hand free while you are wielding it. It says that, specifically. A free hand can be used to wield a weapon. Contrast with the Light Shield entry which says it leaves the hand free, but you can't attack with anything in that hand. Gauntlet Axe doesn't have that caveat at all. A free hand is a free hand.
It is not an "innovation" it is outright cheating. If a DM wishes to houserule otherwise that is their call.

It is legel. Gauntlet Axe leaves your hand free while you are wielding it. It says that, specifically. A free hand can be used to wield a weapon. Contrast with the Light Shield entry which says it leaves the hand free, but you can't attack with anything in that hand. Gauntlet Axe doesn't have that caveat at all. A free hand is a free hand.



Except that's not actually useful to what is being attempted. An off-hand weapon can be used when there is a weapon being held by the main hand, not when there is a weapon being held in both hands.

i.e. if you're holding a Gouge in both hands, you can't actually use the Gauntlet Axe as an off-hand weapon, which makes it useless as a weapon. 
It is not an "innovation" it is outright cheating. If a DM wishes to houserule otherwise that is their call.

It is legel. Gauntlet Axe leaves your hand free while you are wielding it. It says that, specifically. A free hand can be used to wield a weapon. Contrast with the Light Shield entry which says it leaves the hand free, but you can't attack with anything in that hand. Gauntlet Axe doesn't have that caveat at all. A free hand is a free hand.


Show


Gauntlet axe

Superior one-handed melee weapon
Cost: 25 gp
Damage: 1d8
Proficient: +2
Weight: 3 lb.

This heavy bracer holds two light crescent blades, turning the forearm into an axe while keeping the hand free. The weapon can also serve as a light shield. A gauntlet axe can be enchanted as either an arms slot item or as a magic weapon. When enchanted as a magic weapon, it does not occupy a character’s arms slot.

Properties
Defensive (A defensive weapon grants you a +1 bonus to AC while you wield the defensive weapon in one hand and wield another melee weapon in your other hand. Wielding more than one defensive weapon does not increase this bonus. To gain this benefit, you need not attack with the defensive weapon, but you must be proficient with it.).
Off-Hand (An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can’t attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with either weapon.).

Group
Axe (Axes are weapons that have bladed, heavy heads and deal vicious cuts. An axe’s weight makes it fine for delivering crushing blows.).

Published in Dark Sun Campaign Setting, page(s) 121.



 
I'm in no real mood to get into a long discussion and hijack this thread but go ahead and point to where it specifically says that you are weilding this weapon and able to wield a two-handed weapon as you are stating. If used as a weapon you need to wield it it in one hand and get to have a hande free. If you use it as a shield you get to have a hand free to hold items but not wield a weapon. All of the properties require you to be wielding the Gauntlet axe in order to gain them. If it is enchanted as a weapon it will take your hand slot. If it is enchanted as a shield it will take your arm slot and you will not be able to make attacks with it. I really expect better of you.
I can understand why you're not interested in getting into a long discussion where your position is shown to be foolish and wrong. Unfortunately, that is what is going to happen now. Thankfully it'll be a short discussion, so you get half your wish.

Rules do what they say they do in 4e. If you have a free hand, you can wield a weapon in it. Because the rules say so. The rules you are referencing, by the by, are the magic item slot rules which place no limitation on how many magic items you can wield in your hands, just the practical limitation of things you can physically hold (which is found in another section of the rules entirely). In fact it isn't even listed under the magic item slots as a category, it says "Hands" but it is referring to gloves. Thankfully, in the case of the Gauntlet Axe, your hand is free while wielding it. Because it says so. Not a hard concept. Things do what they say they do. Your hand is free and you are wielding it as a weapon regardless of how it is enchanted, because the rules for wielding and the rules for equipping magic items are different.

So the real question is, how many things are you going to make up to justify your position rather than admitting you're wrong by RAW? I'll give you what you would need for your argument to have any validity at all: you'd need a rule that, like the light shield rule, specifically says the free hand the gauntlet axe gives you cannot be used to wield a weapon and attack with it. No such rule exists. Welcome to exception based design, enjoy your stay.

@MWAO: Your argument is even sillier. Wow.

Rules do what they say they do in 4e. If you have a free hand, you can wield a weapon in it. Because the rules say so.

Thankfully, in the case of the Gauntlet Axe, your hand is free while wielding it. Because it says so. Not a hard concept. Things do what they say they do. Your hand is free and you are wielding it as a weapon regardless of how it is enchanted, because the rules for wielding and the rules for equipping magic items are different. 



I'll agree that the rules do what they say they do and that while you WEAR a Gauntlet axe you get to have a hand free to wield another weapon such as a two-hander but nowhere in all of this does it specify that you are able to make attacks with the gauntlet axe while also wielding another weapon in both hands. If your argument was going to be correct than the text should have specified that you could wield the gauntlet axe while wielding a two-handed weapon.
I'll give you what you would need for your argument to have any validity at all: you'd need a rule that, like the light shield rule, specifically says the free hand the gauntlet axe gives you cannot be used to wield a weapon and attack with it. No such rule exists. Welcome to exception based design, enjoy your stay.

@MWAO: Your argument is even sillier. Wow.



Yeah, rules are silly...and that exact rule is what I'm talking about is that it specifically states that the free hand the gauntlet axe gives you cannot be used to wield a weapon and attack with it in the scenario you're using.

"Off-Hand (An off-hand weapon is light enough that you can hold it and attack effectively with it while holding a weapon in your main hand. You can’t attack with both weapons in the same turn, unless you have a power that lets you do so, but you can attack with either weapon.)."

Are you holding the Gouge in your main hand or are you holding it in two hands? The only way you get to be able to 'attack effectively with' the Gauntlet Axe is to be only holding a weapon in your main hand, not two hands.

That's even ignoring the silliness of getting to that point in the first place. Twin Strike requires you to have a weapon in your main hand, which given your Gouge is not just in your main hand, doesn't qualify.
I'll agree that the rules do what they say they do and that while you WEAR a Gauntlet axe you get to have a hand free to wield another weapon such as a two-hander but nowhere in all of this does it specify that you are able to make attacks with the gauntlet axe while also wielding another weapon in both hands. If your argument was going to be correct than the text should have specified that you could wield the gauntlet axe while wielding a two-handed weapon.

You can't "wear" a gauntlet axe. It is a weapon, either you are wielding it or you are holding it. In all cases where it leaves your hand free and thus able to wield another in weapon in that hand, you are wielding it. Period. Having a hand free means the hand is free. Feel free to cheat and ignore the rules, but considering you were so down on the idea when you thought you were right...

@MWAO: Oh, my mistake, you were making things up out right and not just misreading dozens of rules elements. Right. Off-hand is a property. But, thankfully, the Gauntlet Axe is not wielded in your off-hand, so SvG applies and your hand is free. Yay you're wrong. I understand, confusing "off-hand" the weapon property and "off-hand" the weapon in your off-hand is tricky, particularly as the latter is so poorly defined as to be a non-existent entity in the rules, with the sole exception of the Ranger blurb where it says you can pick whatever weapon you want to be your off-hand weapon.

Also I'd go read Twin Strike again, it doesn't say "Main Hand" weapon. It says main weapon. And off-hand weapon. And, as noted, your off-hand weapon doesn't actually need to be in your off-hand. Gouge+Gauntlet Axe works fine with Twin Strike by the rules. Only if you make things up does it not work, but then who would be stupid enough to do that in this forum, when they know they'll be called out on it?
Alright. So you are HOLDING the gauntlet axe on your arm because the rules say so. When doing this you have a hand free to hold another item or weapon. Being that it is a Sup. Melee weapon when you choose to make an attack with this weapon you must wield the weapon thus no longer having a hand free because that is what the rules of "One-Handed Weapon" and  "Defensive Property" specify.


Isn't it also a free action to take one hand off a two-handed weapon, or is that specific to versatile? You can still hold (not wield) a gouge in one hand while attacking with a gauntlet axe on the other.

I've seen this all over these boards - didn't realize it was disputed by anyone.
Isn't it also a free action to take one hand off a two-handed weapon, or is that specific to versatile? You can still hold (not wield) a gouge in one hand while attacking with a gauntlet axe on the other.

I've seen this all over these boards - didn't realize it was disputed by anyone.


I would say that maybe this is a way around it but you are not wielding two melee weapons when you make you Twin strike attack. I would say talk to your DM. It would work differently in the case of the Swordmage wielding a Bastard Sword while attacking and then taking his hand off as a free action to regain his warding.
Alright. So you are HOLDING the gauntlet axe on your arm because the rules say so. When doing this you have a hand free to hold another item or weapon. Being that it is a Sup. Melee weapon when you choose to make an attack with this weapon you must wield the weapon thus no longer having a hand free because that is what the rules of "One-Handed Weapon" and  "Defensive Property" specify.



Except you're not, you're wielding it, unless you want to make up rules in which case you're just a cheater (by your own logic). Your hand is free while you are wielding it. Period. That is how it works and no amount of you yelling and screaming you don't want it to work that way will change it. Gauntlet Axe has very specific rules that say what it does, and those are trump any general rule you think you might understand in this context (you don't actually understand even the general rules, but it doesn't even matter in this case).
Then point out the rule that says you are wielding the Gauntlet Axe because it would seem that i have cited enough to the contrary.
Then point out the rule that says you are wielding the Gauntlet Axe because it would seem that i have cited enough to the contrary.

1.) You haven't cited anything. You've done an awful lot of whining about how you don't want the rules to work the way they say they do. Literally the only thing you've done in this discussion, actually.

2.) The Gauntlet Axe rules say how to wield it and that wielding it leaves your hand free. A free hand can be used to wield other weapons. Things do what they say they do. Done.
This is the only thing you could be possibly talking about(which is from the Gauntlet Axe text)

This heavy bracer holds two light cresent blades, turning the forearm into an axe while keeping the hand free.

But this only tells me that it turns my forearm into an axe. I don't whine, i have not whined and you have yet to prove a thing. 
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