Flight "until end of turn" in Green

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Inspired by Evolution Charm.

While flight is rather idiotically forbidden in , I think short term flight would be a nice touch. It'd be like creature control in , distinguished from in other colours by it's brevity.
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The only flying I'd think you could put in green is throwing, but red already has it.
I think pseudoflying is good enough anyway.
The only flying I'd think you could put in green is throwing, but red already has it.
I think pseudoflying is good enough anyway.



No, it's the culture in Design more than anything. Basically they're a bunch of scrubs who got beaten by a Scryb Sprites because they failed to Terror it for 20 turns. They're POed that blue sucked in limited in first drafts, so they decide blue has to have all the playable creatures, and green gets nothing.

But it's another issue, my biggest issue with the way green is currently working with flying: Parsimony. Green gets reach and pseudoflying, so why not both? Green can't kill creatures unless they have flying, but congrats on printing another blank card, Design! Just...just consider Plummet another coin flip card. I hate coin flip cards./liliana
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
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This sounds like a question for Mark Rosewater, COLOR PIE GURU!

I asked it on his Blogatog, but there's no guarantee he'll answer it of course.
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This sounds like a question for Mark Rosewater, COLOR PIE GURU!

I asked it on his Blogatog, but there's no guarantee he'll answer it of course.



The better question is "Why doesn't green..., and don't talk about 'mechanical identity' either, in an era of green getting linear artifact love at common."
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
The only flying I'd think you could put in green is throwing, but red already has it.
I think pseudoflying is good enough anyway.



No, it's the culture in Design more than anything. Basically they're a bunch of scrubs who got beaten by a Scryb Sprites because they failed to Terror it for 20 turns. They're POed that blue sucked in limited in first drafts, so they decide blue has to have all the playable creatures, and green gets nothing.


I have to say, even after all of the arguments and theories I've heard for Magic R&D shifting the color pie over the years, I don't think insistance that they are all just a bunch of butt-hurt scrubs has ever come up before. That would be interesting, considering that their group is made up of some of the most knowledgable and skilled players the game knows. Sure, their judgement of the power level of certain cards they release is sometimes way off, but they aren't strangers to how the game is played.
Then why does Maro think green getting flying would break the game?

I can find green mana ramp cards that really are busted, but mana ramp's still green. We still have free artifacts in Modern, in spite of lolaffinity. We still have "life for cards" engines, though that's really busted and beyond redemption. Blue still gets card draw and extra turns, and even counterspells. Broken, broken, and broken. Boardwipes are really overpowered in white. So's red looting.

There really is no really powerful green flyer. Killer Bees and Hornet Queen come closest.

Green doesn't get flying so flying hate can exist, really.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Every time someone uses Planar Chaos to justify color identity, Gleemax kills a beeble.

Moving to Design & Development Theory.

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I don't think temporary flight really accomplishes much that green can't already accomplish. Offensively, green already has access to Spire Tracer-type evasion, and defensively it has access to reach. So green can already do either half of that effect independently; the only difference this would make is the flexibility of being able to do one or the other as needed instead of only one.

...What purpose would printing this effect serve?


(And please, let's not let this thread get dragged down into a discussion of whether or not green should get flying at all; we already have a thread for that, and spreading the argument across multiple threads serves no purpose.)

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Then why does Maro think green getting flying would break the game?


Colors need to have clear identities, both for flavor and playability reasons. I'm amazed at how many people still don't understand this. #ColorPie4Life

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"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
Then why does Maro think green getting flying would break the game?


I don't know, when and where did he say that? In what context?
I misread the title as 'Fight until end of turn'. I have no idea how it would work, but it would clearly be pretty radicalicious.
Other than the Charm, the last instances of mono-green flying I can think of pretty old. Pre-Urza's block faeries, Leaping Lizard, Canopy Dragon, Emerald Dragonfly, and Cocoon. None of whic are particularly powerful (except green faeries, Faerie Noble does mean things).

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Other than the Charm, the last instances of mono-green flying I can think of pretty old. Pre-Urza's block faeries, Leaping Lizard, Canopy Dragon, Emerald Dragonfly, and Cocoon. None of whic are particularly powerful (except green faeries, Faerie Noble does mean things).


Ignoring time spiral block, where we had scryb ranger, cockatrice and possibly something else, I think the last instance was in Kamigawa block, where it was part of the Dragon and Kirin cycle.

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Actually, green's had flying as recently as Skinshifter and Hornet Queen.
I stand corrected.

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Then why does Maro think green getting flying would break the game?


Colors need to have clear identities, both for flavor and playability reasons. I'm amazed at how many people still don't understand this. #ColorPie4Life



Well, for playable reasons it depends. It sure as hell doesn't hurt the game, and it seems a tad bizarre that evasion like landwalk and hexproof are okay in strategies while flight isn't, especially if it is restricted.

As for flavour, it makes even less sense.
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Actually, green's had flying as recently as Skinshifter and Hornet Queen.


Both in sets furthest from MaRo's grasp as the color pie guru.
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oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
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In fairness to the designer, a shapeshifting Druid is as solidly Green as turning into a Dragon is solidly Red. So I think Maro would be willing to grant Skinshifter a resonance exception. Besides, he's got other Core Set cards to worry about.

Weirdly, Hornet Queen doesn't bother me at all; if I saw it in a Core Set or as part of a block it'd bother the heck out me, but it seems to fit Commander. Eh.

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I don't believe there's any issue with green having flying creatures, they just have to be occasional.
As for giving temporary flying to green, which is the point of this thread, I'm quite sure the color can do without it, even more so as blue and white already have it.
Bay_falconer, you may want to read this before continuing. Please do understand that it applies to you. I do not want to discuss in another "Could someone explain why green hates flyers?" thread.
Green needs more bees. Because BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES.
I don't think temporary flight really accomplishes much that green can't already accomplish. Offensively, green already has access to Spire Tracer-type evasion, and defensively it has access to reach. So green can already do either half of that effect independently; the only difference this would make is the flexibility of being able to do one or the other as needed instead of only one.

...What purpose would printing this effect serve?


Honestly, I prefer temporary flight over cards like Spire Tracer, even if only because Spire Tracer just seems really, really stupid. I mean, they literally used the reminder text for flying, but removed the only part of the ability (i.e. actually having the keyword) that allows for flying hate.

The solution to "green doesn't get flying" really shouldn't be "give it flying anyway" =/
Then why does Maro think green getting flying would break the game?


Colors need to have clear identities, both for flavor and playability reasons. I'm amazed at how many people still don't understand this. #ColorPie4Life



Well, for playable reasons it depends. It sure as hell doesn't hurt the game, and it seems a tad bizarre that evasion like landwalk and hexproof are okay in strategies while flight isn't, especially if it is restricted.

As for flavour, it makes even less sense.


If any color can do everything, why have colors? Color identity is necessary to (a) create tension between mana consistency and mono-color weakness (b) keep the game interesting by increasing variance in play. I'm not sure how you can say eliminating that doesn't hurt the game.

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"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
Honestly, I prefer temporary flight over cards like Spire Tracer, even if only because Spire Tracer just seems really, really stupid. I mean, they literally used the reminder text for flying, but removed the only part of the ability (i.e. actually having the keyword) that allows for flying hate.

The solution to "green doesn't get flying" really shouldn't be "give it flying anyway" =/


I think "can't be blocked by flying" would be more flavorful, but it probably wouldn't matter often enough.

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"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
I like green not having flying, and having reach. But I dislike a lot Spire Tracer, because it's pretty much giving green flying.

By the way, the "can't be blocked by flying" has been used a few times, but only in red cards
Then why does Maro think green getting flying would break the game?


Colors need to have clear identities, both for flavor and playability reasons. I'm amazed at how many people still don't understand this. #ColorPie4Life



That's understandable, and Imma let you finish, but it means things like this that compromise the "each color cannot answer a permanent type" rule. It also obscures things, like whenever a card like Savage Twister is printed, implying red can't damage nonflyers, something obviously not true.

And what is contrary to green's flavor about flying?

I don't want green to have cards that grant flying, though. That is contrary to green's flavor.

Actually, green's had flying as recently as Skinshifter and Hornet Queen.



To be fair, Skinshifter's more of a Doran, the Siege Tower bomb.

If any color can do everything, why have colors? Color identity is necessary to (a) create tension between mana consistency and mono-color weakness (b) keep the game interesting by increasing variance in play. I'm not sure how you can say eliminating that doesn't hurt the game.



That's the slippery slope argument right there, though. We're not saying green should have removal. The only one saying green should is you.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
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Bay, stop blighting every thread you touch with "flying hate it stupid".
Seriously.
I respect your right to have opinions that differ from my own, but it's getting real old. 

Actually, I'm inclined to agree with the original poster on the grounds of Skinshifter being such a beautiful example of this working. But what makes Skinshifter work so well is that the effect is built into the creature, as opposed to being a spell all it's own. Artifacts, Charms and Creatures that grant temporary Flight in :G: are playing to :G:'s flavor without making :G: a "flying color", the effects are accessory, and as with situations like Hybrid cards, I think this makes it okay to tastefully bleed the colors. But to be fair, there are lots of :G: effects that temporarily grant Reach or Evasion which by many accounts are "the same thing", because it's :G: doing the same thing in a different way- but likened to Horsemanship, it's hamstringing the elegance of design.

This doesn't mean I think the effect should be super commonplace either, but I happen to think that Reach is due for retirement as a mainstay mechanic, and should be replaced with a more comprehensive blocking mechanic. Which would mean that that instead of ":G: hates flying", the idea would be ":G: adapts to flying as needed" (That and it would allow bayfalconer to make an even bigger waste of forumspace about how much he hates :G: for getting to be good)
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Bay, stop blighting every thread you touch with "flying hate it stupid".
Seriously.
I respect your right to have opinions that differ from my own, but it's getting real old. 




It's not so much that it's stupid (which it is), as it's just contrary to the flavor of the color and adds nothing to the game.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Not the point.
The point is you turn every thread you touch into a discussion of how stupid flying hate is, and its getting real damned annoying. 
Its a CPP (Color Pie Police) convention up in here.

"Just put +1/+1 counters!" -Wizards new motto

Bay, stop blighting every thread you touch with "flying hate it stupid".

Seriously.
I respect your right to have opinions that differ from my own, but it's getting real old.


Yes. This. PLEASE. You can rant about green hating flyers all you like in the thread I long since stopped reading, but please, please, don't pollute other threads with that argument. It adds nothing.

This thread is for whether green ought to get flying until end of turn, and similar effects. That's the topic. Let's discuss that, not your pet bugbear.

On topic: I don't think "jump" effects would gain green much. I agree Spire Tracer isn't a very sensible alternative, but those saying "it's just flying" ought to note that it's only flying on attacking - it's no use for blocking Lyev Skyknight
On topic: I don't think "jump" effects would gain green much. I agree Spire Tracer isn't a very sensible alternative, but those saying "it's just flying" ought to note that it's only flying on attacking - it's no use for blocking Lyev Skyknight


As cool as that sounds, flying is mostly seen as an evasion ability, not an ability to block other flying creatures.

But, more importantly, green already has flying on attacking with Spire Tracer, and flying on blocking with a well-known keyword.

It's a running joke that green could give a creature both abilities and make a Scryb Sprites.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />But, more importantly, green already has flying on attacking with Spire Tracer, and flying on blocking with a well-known keyword.

It's a running joke that green could give a creature both abilities and make a Scryb Sprites.


But it would be immune to plummet! OMG![/Bay Falconer]
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You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
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56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Oddly, I really don't like granting keywords in green at all. Mostly because of green's idea that you are what you are. I mean, if the keyword defines green, I don't mind.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Oddly, I really don't like granting keywords in green at all. Mostly because of green's idea that you are what you are. I mean, if the keyword defines green, I don't mind.


I had never thought about that. But it doesn't play that well. The color that's opposed to that and actually wants to improve things through outside means (blue) is not only the one with the less creatures, but also the one with only two creature keywords.
Oddly, I really don't like granting keywords in green at all. Mostly because of green's idea that you are what you are. I mean, if the keyword defines green, I don't mind.



I see it in the absolute negative space of that statement. Green is about adaptation and arms-racing, because those are means of survival. Identity, on the otherhand is a machination of sentience, which :G: only experiences through it's planeswalkers and higher-echelon lifeforms that do more than devour or task. When I play a Vorapede, I don't have any delusion or complex feeling about how the creature must feel or see itself, the way I do when I play Fiend Hunter, or Treasure Mage. For the Vorapede to sprout wings in order to devour something mid-flight, or to hunt something vulnerable to aerial strikes is fairly sensible. While the humans or sentient creatures that do the same thing feel denatured.
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Sapience*
Sapience*



How do you figure? Green values Sapience in it's highest units (such as Elves, Treefolk,  Trolls etc), much in the way that :U: does, but it doesn't require feelingt or perceptiveness (consider the number of Plants, Insects and take-oriented or hunger driven beasts that present no perceptive capacity.*)  to contain :G: mana, just a will to survive and outlast- since :G: mana leaves the need for sentience, and thus identity, with those who wield it.

*What I mean is that insects and some beasts are not driven by their potential limited sentience to do anything that creating them out of :G: mana would require of them. Not that insects and creatures with spinal chords don't possess some amount of sentience, but :G: mana doesn't need it's produced units to have enough sentience to be self-aware, the same way other colors usually do.
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No, I was correcting your use of the word.

Sentience is the capacity for a creature to manually respond to external stimuli; most animals have this.
Sapience is the ability to have subjective experiences; most animals don't have this.
Oddly, I really don't like granting keywords in green at all. Mostly because of green's idea that you are what you are. I mean, if the keyword defines green, I don't mind.


I had never thought about that. But it doesn't play that well. The color that's opposed to that and actually wants to improve things through outside means (blue) is not only the one with the less creatures, but also the one with only two creature keywords.



Flying, hexproof, flash, and every color gets landwalk and trample. Blue hasn't gotten intimidate, but MaRo says it can, and I'm calling it right here: Blue only gets intimidate on weenies.

@Wynzerman:
That's true. It's kinda awkward, but green gets all these scaling creatures, when green's supposed to be the color most opposed to the tabula rasa. Weird flavor/mechanics disconnect.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
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