Show and Tell answers?

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Hi all,

Big issue - Show and Tell.
Now my issue is simple.  Almost every deck out there has some kind of hate that can either slow it down or nail it.
Look at the amount of varied graveyard hate, creature hate etc etc.
 
But Show and Tell variants really don't have much hate at all, that can handle whatever big nasty surprise SnT brings out.
Oblivion Ring?  Angel of DespairKederekt Leviathan?
They're a pretty crappy inclusion for any deck without those colours....

So, discuss - should we be asking WoTC to print us some UNCOLOURED hate that can simply fit into every deck?
(Instead of asking the same-same argument about banning. Cos lets face it, SnT isn't dominating, so it's not in ban territory)
Think relative to Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progentitus - as to graveyard strategy. 

If we got a dedicated hate card for SnT, what would it look like do you think?        
Maze of Ith and Karakas did a pretty great job of shutting me down in the top four of my last Legacy event.  Both can be easily fetched up by them freely dropping Knight of the Reliquary off of my SnT as well.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Maze of Ith and Karakas did a pretty great job of shutting me down in the top four of my last Legacy event.  Both can be easily fetched up by them freely dropping Knight of the Reliquary off of my SnT as well.



Damn.
That sucks - what deck were you playing? 


Regarding these choices, Karakas is afaily narrow - although SnT variants have a more than likely chance of dropping a legendary so it's a fair choice.
Maze is less narrow in that it doesn't rley on a legendary, but it can only do anything about creatures...
So really, neither of them are kind of what I was thinking...

Let take a look at Grafdigger's Cage.
For only 1 mana it shuts off Dredge, Flashback, Reanimator etc., and has to be dealt with.
Why not something like that for SnT?
Now we've all seen a SnT deck drop Emrakul on turn 1 before (sigh), so I wonder whether a low cost on this is appropriate.  

Let's call it ANTI-SHOW.
1 colourless mana.
Spells/Permanent's put into play without being hardcast cannot attack, or tap, and their activated abilities cannot be activated unless they're mana abilities.
How about something like that? 
Of course Omniscience or Dream Halls get around this, but I'm only interested about Show. 
Do any of you think this would be fair?
Spine of Ish Sah

I hate your idea for a hozer. Do you realise how much stuff it hoses besides SnT? Event if we came up with somethign reasonable I don't think it's needed. If you want a sideboard that beats show and tell there is plenty of stuff out there.
Spine of Ish Sah

I hate your idea for a hozer. Do you realise how much stuff it hoses besides SnT? Event if we came up with somethign reasonable I don't think it's needed. If you want a sideboard that beats show and tell there is plenty of stuff out there.



Fair enough - the example I gave above is too wide, as effecting mana sources isn't great, and effecting stuff like Green Sun's Zenith isn't my intention.
And you're right, there is plenty of stuff out there, but a lot of it is so damn narrow that's its a joke - Mono-red goblins playing O-ring in the board for example. Show is the only thing this sideboard option can effect that matters AFAIK.
 
But is it such a bad problem with a card that effects more than just Show?  It could effect multiple cards that cheat stuff into play without a cost.
Perhaps that could the wording?  If no cost was paid (life, mana, etc.)?  
So if you were going to design a card to thwart Show, how would you like to see it designed?
 
My point is fairly simple though, SnT can happen on t1, and both T2 or 3 fairly commonly.
So if any said deck isn't running blue to counter it, or black to discard it, how does a fair deck deal with it? 
A lot of the hate out there doesn't deal with quite a lot of scenario's anyway, like the way a SnT player can bring in Sneak Attack and just combo off even though we're targetting it with our Angel of Despair etc etc.... 
There are almost no decks that would include the hoser cards for Show and Tell, maindeck.  Oblivion Ring is one of very few that you'd actually play in a deck, provided you're on white, and provided you have a reason to be playing such a slow card.   But I'm asking for a card that can fit in any deck potentially, and be castable (instead of a stalwart in your hand for all of game 2 and 3.) 

Well, red decks have some options....



That being said, I'm not really sure that SnT is something that actively needs to be hated.  For a turn 1 play it requires, at minimum; 1 lands that taps for two mana, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Show and Tell, and 1 thing worth using SnT with.  That's four cards.  And while we can argue over the probability that it comes up worth doing on turn one, you also have to hope that your opponent doesn't have some crazy thing in their hand as well. 

Beyond the first turn, SnT is quite stoppable in several colors.  Black has discard, white has exile, blue and red each have counters......really only green seems to be at a loss and nobody just plays mono-green in Legacy.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Ensnaring Bridge

I don't think every unfair deck needs to have a coresponding hozer card. There are only 15 sideboard slots anyway. If you have a deck that has no maindeck game vs the unfair stuff that's the choice you made in picking the deck. Your plan is to dodge the unfair decks the same way the guy playing charbelcher is trying to dodge force of will decks.

SNt Hozer

Whever a non-land permanent comes into play from a player's hand or library, if it was not cast, SnT Hozer deals damage to that permanent's controller equal to it's converted mana cost.

Legacy already has one unfair deck that is very powerful and folds to sideboard hate. It's called Dredge. I don't want this to be a format with fair decks and 6 different "dredge" decks where building my sideboard and getting matched up against the decks my sideboard hozes becomes more important than how I play my starting 60.

Spine of Ish Sah is your best bet, as even if they try to bluff with one Show and Tell by putting a land into play, you can target Spine with its own effect to return it to your hand so eventually they'd have to commit to a SnT target and lose it.

tbh though, I wish Spine was actually an artifact creature with CMC>6 still
I don't think every unfair deck needs to have a coresponding hozer card. 
Legacy already has one unfair deck that is very powerful and folds to sideboard hate. It's called Dredge. I don't want this to be a format with fair decks and 6 different "dredge" decks where building my sideboard and getting matched up against the decks my sideboard hozes becomes more important than how I play my starting 60.



We don't need a hoser for everything, true.  

Storm is an almost unwinnable game 1 agianst a good pilot, unless you're playing blue or heavy discard. But game 2 the side gets your response and the game becomes more even. There are quite a few decks that rely on you being unprepared for game 1....
And that's the purpose of this thread, to ignore the need to play blue counter, and maybe find what everyone considers a fair answer to SnT, considering how lopsided this MU can be against a fair deck.
I understand what you're saying about Dredge, but it's one of many unfair decks. The only difference as I see it, is that a well designed dredge deck lacks interaction with their opponent, making typical blue counter less useful, and the dredge deck strong against a lot of MU's. 

But any deck that can land Emrakul on t1 or 2 is just as unfair, especially when they have counter to protect the combo, or cards like Overmaster etc.
I've had Emrakul land on T1 or 2 on me a fair bit lately, and there was nothing I could have done about it for lack of effective SnT hate, as many of the options you guys speak of can be comboed off before the hate takes effect.
E.G.  SnT > Griselbrand.  Sure we can kill Grisel, but they still get to draw 7 cards minimum, bringing out Emrakul next turn.
SnT > Sneak Attack.  Same deal, we still end up with Emrakul or Grisel up our arse.  And then we have Omni....
I don't want this to sound like a giant whinge, but post board SnT is still hard to stop if you're not playing blue or black. 

Epic;
Spine doesn't sound like a bad option - cheers.
But out of curiosity, what other decks (outside post-ramp) would this card actually be useful in? 
   
MUD Stax is one: Smokestack @ 1 with Spine of Ish Sah is brutal in so many ways.

Also, upon further thought, there is an underlying problem when it comes to developing hate for SnT decks: there are several angles of attack for them, all of them from an origin that all players have to use--the hand.

I mean Spine of Ish Sah is great, but it doesn't do anything against Griselbrand, doesn't overpower Hypergenesis, and doesn't prevent Sneak Attack from going to town. Damnation is a good catch all if they cheat one or more creatures into play, yet again does nothing against Griselbrand, or even Sneak Attack/Omniscience. Humility solves the creature problem the best, if it weren't for Omni and Sneak being able to use Burning Wish for a bounce spell.

I'm actually surprised all of its variations don't do better at tournaments: between Griselbrand, Emrakul, and their choice of "gimmick", SnT decks are spooky.
Yeah I'm surprised too.  'specially with blue bein everywhere....
Humility is a good one!   But then Omni has the loop-kill with Grapeshot. 
Yeah.. I am surprised with all these answers to anything.
Makes me wonder if a lot of these SnT decks are facing hate, loads of decks are also running Grisel/Emrakul, everyone is running counter and discard or all of the bloody above.
yeah, I know how it sounds.....Wink

Maybe you guys are right, maybe a specific anti-Show card isn't needed.  But I consider it an unfair deck. Zauzich says Dredge is unfair, and that's a fair call, but SnT can be no different.  Does anyone else besides me think the hate we have available is too narrow, and far too deck specific? 


How about another idea;
What about a "0-1" cost colourless, that allows us to pop it like Tormod's Crypt. When you pop it, It says something like, "The next non-token permanent each player puts into play, without paying it's mana cost (or something like that), return that perm to their owner's hand. They do not enter the battlefield."     

This would work bilaterally, with land and 0-cost perm's uneffected.
Having a pop effect like this in play means either player can exploit the stack, it can can Stifled, removed etc., and seeing as Show/Burning Wish has answers there too, it's not too harsh.  It's still relatively narrow, potentially effects a lot of strategies, and any deck could use it.  But pop and it's gone.  
Thoughts?
Personally, I'd rather have something like a fake-leyline: that is something you can just keep in your opening hand and scare them out of SnTing.

Like a Phyrexian Revoker with an Echoing Truth effect slapped on it when it enters the battlefield. That covers everything but Reanimator and Hypergenesis, the former which can already be hated out with Leyline of the Void and the latter which is easily disrupted as it is.
Every colour has its own way of dealing with Show and Tell.

White:

Oblivion Ring
Karakas

Blue:

Force of Will

Black:

Diabolic Edict

Red & Green:

Red & Green:



Red's fine.


@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Red's fine.



Apply it exclusively to green, then.

Diabolic Edict is far too risky to run. They could have a Misdirection in hand, counter (likely) or simply, more than one creature. 
Not viable for me.

And yes.  Poor green.  Poor, poor green. 
But any deck that can land Emrakul on t1 or 2 is just as unfair, especially when they have counter to protect the combo, or cards like Overmaster etc.
I've had Emrakul land on T1 or 2 on me a fair bit lately, and there was nothing I could have done about it for lack of effective SnT hate, as many of the options you guys speak of can be comboed off before the hate takes effect.



If that's any consolation, the SnT decks don't tend to do that well against counter-heavy tempo and control. Even a Jund pilot who's done his or her homework, and brought the right hate, can win the two postboard games. It's also important not to get tilted after losing game 1.

No single hate card is completely effective against the SnT decks, so it's also useful to be able to seal the game with Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker, and not some Ooze or Factory that will take forever to deal 20 damage.

In general, though, I think SnT shouldn't be hated so much as built against. A deck that doesn't have game against SnT likely won't have game against other combo decks, except perhaps graveyard-based combo, so it's probably not a very good deck in the first place...
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!
Do Show and Tell decks run any removal?  I just thought about Platinum Angel today ...
Do Show and Tell decks run any removal?  I just thought about Platinum Angel today ...


Does Emrakrul count? Platinum doesn't do anything after being sacrificed to Annhilator triggers.
Do Show and Tell decks run any removal?  I just thought about Platinum Angel today ...


Does Emrakrul count? Platinum doesn't do anything after being sacrificed to Annhilator triggers.




Darn straight Emrakul counts, he's the only "control" spell in my Modern Mono-Green.


Playing Platinum Angel even if they only put Griselbrand into play, it means that every time they swing, they dig for 7 more cards to find that removal spell. It comes out like Abyssal Persecutor, it's only a matter of time before it dies and you lose, they just have to have the ability to remove it.

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I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy. For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins. For Modern, I have a B/G/U/W Draw-go Reanimator featuring my favorite creature, Wurmcoil Engine. For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension. I also run a Naya Zoo with all the oldies. For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm. A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely. However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.
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Cheers!
Do Show and Tell decks run any removal?  I just thought about Platinum Angel today ...


Does Emrakrul count? Platinum doesn't do anything after being sacrificed to Annhilator triggers.




Darn straight Emrakul counts, he's the only "control" spell in my Modern Mono-Green.


Playing Platinum Angel even if they only put Griselbrand into play, it means that every time they swing, they dig for 7 more cards to find that removal spell. It comes out like Abyssal Persecutor, it's only a matter of time before it dies and you lose, they just have to have the ability to remove it.



I know that if they have removal anywhere then Angel won't work.  That's why I was wondering if they even play any removal at all, because if not then it doesn't matter how much they get to draw.  I've never seen a S&T or Reanimator deck actually cast a removal spell.
I suppose Emrakul is enough though, still need a way to stop him first.

I know that if they have removal anywhere then Angel won't work.  That's why I was wondering if they even play any removal at all, because if not then it doesn't matter how much they get to draw.  I've never seen a S&T or Reanimator deck actually cast a removal spell.
I suppose Emrakul is enough though, still need a way to stop him first.



They certainly do play Echoing Truth, and S&T can also afford to play Wipe Away.
In Legacy, Blue is the best color. Let's punish blue, in Modern. And they listened!