Barbarian Dual Wielding Confusion

Alright so this might be somewhat of a simple question but I keep getting confused with the current wording of everything.

I am making a new barbarian in a game I am playing so I want to make sure I have things right before I play.


Hill Dwarf Barbarian Level 1

Str: 16 (+3)
Dex: 13 (+1)
Con: 15 (+2)
Int: 10 (+0)
Wis: 12 (+1)
Cha: 8 (-1)

I take the feat Dual Wielding so I can dual wield 2 warhammers (changed to d10's instead of d8's because of dwarf)

When I attack, NOT in rage how does it go?

Attack Main hand +2 (+3 str, +1 barb, -2 TWF)

Dmg: 1d10 + (1d6 MDD)

Attack Offhand +2 (+3 str, +1 barb, -2 TWF)

Dmg: 1d10   

I never add the extra damage to it from STR right?


Also when I AM raging does it go to..

Attack Main hand +2 (+3 str, +1 barb, -2 TWF) (+Advantage) (( 2d20+2))
 
Dmg: 1d10 +2 + (1d6 MDD)

Attack Offhand+2 (+3 str, +1 barb, -2 TWF) (+Advantage) (( 2d20+2))    

Dmg: 1d10 + 2  
 

Would love any help/clarification. Thanks! Smile
As I understand it, you add Str to the main weapon's damage but not the offhand, light weapon.  You do not have to wield a light weapon due to dual wielding so you add your Str to the main weapon and the offhand weapon is just a straight weapon die.  Your offhand weapon does not receive any damage bonuses even when you are raging.  There has been a request to clarify the TWF entry.  Add it to your survey to make sure they hear it.  So, your damage should be:

Main: 1d10 + 3 + (MDD)
Offhand: 1d10
Main raging: 1d10 + 3 + 2 + (MDD)
Offhand: 1d10
Sweet. Thanks for the quick and easy reply! Definitely will be asking for clarification on the entry as well.
RAW states that only a light weapon loses its strength bonus to damage

WDD + rage bonus + strength bonus + MDD

WDD + rage bonus + strength bonus  

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

Could you tell me where you found this? or quote it?

Would be nice to tell/show my DM. Thanks though!
How to play page 15 details two-weapon fighting.  It states:
        When you wild two melee weapons at the same time, you can attack with both of them using a single action, provided at least one of them is a              
        light weapon.  You take a -2 penalty to both attack rolls, and you use only the light weapon's damage dice to determine its damage; you add    
        no bonuses
to it.  If both weapons are light, only one of them is limited in this way (you choose).

The dual wielding feat states that a character "can attack with two melee weapons even when neither of the weapons you are wielding is a light weapon."  However, it does not state that the "no bonuses" penalty does not apply to the character's second weapon.  I interpret it as if a character can wield a one-handed weapon as if it were a light weapon, so the penalty would still apply.  I understand how LordVonDerp would argue that the regular, non-light weapon still receives bonuses though.  Either way, it needs clarification so there is no misinterpretation because one of us must be incorrect.
This is Technically Correct ("the best kind of correct"), but many feel this is an oversight. The DMs I've seen take this that one weapon is Off-Hand and it adds no bonuses (not even MDD) to damage.
This is Technically Correct ("the best kind of correct"), but many feel this is an oversight. The DMs I've seen take this that one weapon is Off-Hand and it adds no bonuses (not even MDD) to damage.

RAW states you can add MDD to any attack you make on a turn, so you could apply half of them to each attack if you wanted, or you could apply all of them to a single attack.

"Trying to run gritty gothic horror with 4e is like trying to cut down a tree with a hammer, likewise trying to run heroic fantasy with 1e is like trying to hammer a nail with a chainsaw."

 
 

 This is what i get when i hit the Quote button:  http://community.wizards.com/%23

 

  

This is Technically Correct ("the best kind of correct"), but many feel this is an oversight. The DMs I've seen take this that one weapon is Off-Hand and it adds no bonuses (not even MDD) to damage.

RAW states you can add MDD to any attack you make on a turn, so you could apply half of them to each attack if you wanted, or you could apply all of them to a single attack.



That is pretty much where I land on interpretation.  With or without the dual wielding feat, your offhand only deals weapon damage with no bonus for strength, martial damage bonus or any other damage bonus (like Divine Power).  MDD however, are never classified as a "bonus" so I see no reason that you could not split the dice however you saw fit.  This makes TWF usable considering that you apply MDD after you hit.  A raging barbarian against a tough target (say 30% hit chance only) will end up with a 76% chance to apply his MDD to the target.  Rage without TWF would give you a 40% chance to hit (since no -2) and only a 64% chance.  12% is a pretty big boost with no feats involved at all.

If you don't allow MDD on offhand attacks, TWF becomes effectively pointless. A martial character is getting the vast majority of his damage from MDD and bonuses.  Taking a -2 on an attack that deals 1d8+6d6+25 to get a chance at 1d8 more damage  is just dumb.  Taking average damage into account, that means 50.5 damage for your main attack, which over time will effectively be reduced by the attack penalty

If you don't apply MDD to offhand attacks at lvl 20:

Base hit chance 30%
TWF without MDD on offhand averages to  11 damage per round
Non TWF averages to  15.15 damage per round
TWF with MDD on offhand averages to  14.36 damage per round

Base hit chance 40%
TWF without MDD on offhand averages to  16.5 damage per round
Non TWF averages to  20.2 damage per round
TWF with MDD on offhand averages to  27.21 damage per round

Base hit chance 50%
TWF without MDD on offhand averages to  22 damage per round
Non TWF averages to  25.25 damage per round
TWF with MDD on offhand averages to  35.44 damage per round 

Base hit chance 60%
TWF without MDD on offhand averages to  27.5 damage per round
Non TWF averages to  30.3 damage per round
TWF with MDD on offhand averages to  43.25 damage per round 

And so on and so on.  The takaway is that once you have a lot of MDD and damage bonuses, TWF without the ability to add MDD would be a trap, pure and simple.  It will always be outpaced by just attacking with a single weapon... the only purpose for it would be to use Two Weapon Strike to get advantage on your main attack.  On the other hand, allowing MDD to be added increases your damage output (as it should) unless the target is hard to hit, which makes sense.  
Not adding MDD to the offhand attack isn't because MDD could be a bonus even though they are not defined as such.  Rather the problem is that a character only receives 6 MDD by level 20 and each can only be used once per turn.  Adding all of them to both main hand and offhand weapon attacks would effectively provide the character with 12d6 "extra" damage.  Personally, I hope the weapon dice mechanic Mike's been hinting at will alleviate this descrepancy.
Not adding MDD to the offhand attack isn't because MDD could be a bonus even though they are not defined as such.  Rather the problem is that a character only receives 6 MDD by level 20 and each can only be used once per turn.  Adding all of them to both main hand and offhand weapon attacks would effectively provide the character with 12d6 "extra" damage.  Personally, I hope the weapon dice mechanic Mike's been hinting at will alleviate this descrepancy.


You misunderstood it slightly

Its 6 total, that can be applied to either main hand or off hand, but the total can never go above 6

He is saying that if you could ONLY apply to to main hand, there is no reason to dual wield

For example
If you could only apply it to main hand, then if your main hand misses (which happens 10% more often because of dual wield) then you wont be able to use your MDD at all that round, and if your off hand hits at most you would only do a tiny amount of damage

So what you are losing for TWF is much much greater than what you would be gaining, meaning it would never be worth TWF if you could not use MDD on your off hand (but again, if you decide to apply MDD to each hand, the total can never go above your max, so with 6 dice the potential combinations would be 6/0 5/1 4/2 3/3)
Ah, I see the point now.  I did not consider the instance of the main hand missing even though it is obvious after reading it a second time.
uh uh let me munckin as well. If MDD is allowed on the basis that it isnt written in the description that its a bonus, then you can add ability mod as well as its doesnt use the word bonus either! "how to play" p16 you apply damage.

@Keendk

I think we have pretty well covered that the wording is god-awful.

I'm surprised that the white-knights around here haven't jumped at this as a "feature" of modularity.  They are clearly just letting the DM use his discretion to determine the best usage.  Some  bonuses, no bonuses, all bonuses, all bonuses with Dual Wield feat, no bonuses without Dual Wield feat.... lots of options there.... that way, TWF adapts to each groups playstyle.  

With terrible writing comes great responsibility.
 
In 3E and 4E (I think), two-weapon fighting was generally subpar unless your extra attack added bonus damage in some way. So if you missed with your main-hand attack, you could still hit with your off-hand and deal sneak attack or quarry or whatever bonus damage. Basically, TWF is used as a backup to ensure that your class damage bonus is still dealt.

Here, I assumed the same thing. If you missed with your mainhand, your off-hand can still hit and add MDD, since MDD can be added only once per turn. No bonus STR damage though. If you do hit twice, you're only adding an extra [W] to total damage, which isn't a whole lot. You would never do 2x MDD per round.

So you suffer -2 to your attacks in return for two die rolls, ensuring more consistent damage over the long run. TWF is the opposite of all-or-nothing; rather, it helps ensure you score at least one hit in a round, so your MDD can go through.

In 3E and 4E (I think), two-weapon fighting was generally subpar unless your extra attack added bonus damage in some way. So if you missed with your main-hand attack, you could still hit with your off-hand and deal sneak attack or quarry or whatever bonus damage. Basically, TWF is used as a backup to ensure that your class damage bonus is still dealt.

Here, I assumed the same thing. If you missed with your mainhand, your off-hand can still hit and add MDD, since MDD can be added only once per turn. No bonus STR damage though. If you do hit twice, you're only adding an extra [W] to total damage, which isn't a whole lot. You would never do 2x MDD per round.

So you suffer -2 to your attacks in return for two die rolls, ensuring more consistent damage over the long run. TWF is the opposite of all-or-nothing; rather, it helps ensure you score at least one hit in a round, so your MDD can go through.




TWF is more accurate if you just want to hit once. So if you want to hit for riders like disarm TWF is ypur friend. This should not  come free... hence why you do less damage on average than a person with 1 less accurate weapon. If you want it both superior in damage AND accuracy add MDD to offhand and have evryone dual wield as therr is no viable alternative
Allowing the MMD to offhand also increases the chance you'll maximise it with a crit, which skews the numbers further.

Additionally, comparing at low hit chance is less fair, because monsters tend to be quite a bit easier to hit than not. For example, at level 20, a barbarian could be expected to have a +10 to attack rolls (without magic items), but very few monsters get remotely close to 20 AC. Even against AC 20 you'll be hitting at least 55% of the time.

With high level stats like these, the average two-weapon damage overtakes the single weapon when your normal hit chance would be somewhere between 40 and 50%. That's true even if the single weapon is doing 2d6 damage and the dual weapons are 1d8/1d6, as weapon damage is almost totally overshadowed by the martial damage dice.

So, it's clear that allowing MDD on dual wielding is a huge advantage compared to wielding a two-hander.

However, not allowing it swings way too far the other way. The same way that having more MDD increases the benefit of TWF with MDD allowed offhand over a two-hander, it also increases the benefit of a two-hander over TWF without the MDD offhand, and this won't overtake the two-hander until very high hit chance (over 90% for most levels and weapon combos).

Unfortunately, either interpretation leads to a clear choice (TWF is almost always vastly superior if offhand MDD applies, almost always vastly inferior if not).

The best combination of keeping the rules simple and making both choices valid is to allow MDD on offhand and increase the TWF penalty to -3. Depending on the weapons, the attack damage bonus and the number of MDD available, the point where TWF starts to overtake 2handing is around the 60-70% hit mark, which seems a lot more reasonable to me. 
Please take a look at Avern - a Somewhat Airborne Race! Possibly my favourite thread of all time!
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