How to build this Kobold Avenger of Bahamut?

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I stress the bahamut part, becase flavor-wise I'd like him to at least be able to take any and all Bahamut-related features, and specialize in Bahamut-themed things.

This means that I'd like him to use either heavy blades (Blade of Bahamut) or be implement-based (Dragonscale of Bahamut) for offense. Bahamut seems to like Censure of Unity, so that's the one he'd pick as well.

I'm having a hard time meshing Unity and those weapon groups with a Kobold, though. The guide I've read says that they're best as chargers/ninjas, but I'm prepared to give up power for flavor. I'd still like for him to be as effective as possible though. How can I combine Censure of Unity, a Kobold, and either implements or heavy blades as his main offensive tool in an optimal way?

If it helps, he's being made at level 6. I'll gladly answer any questions if you need more specifics; first time using CharOP like this.
Lack of response might be because they aren't sure you are not trolling:


Lack of Wisdom as a racial boost does not make Kobold a prime choice for Avenger class;

The Bahamut feats are not particularly good;

They do start with proficiency in longswords, which should be your pick of the heavy blades.


In all, people likely not understand what it is your trying to accomplish, particularly since with a little reflavoring, it could be done so much more easily. On top of which, posters coming here for advice  tend to work on a build themselves first, and then ask for improvements. It is unlikely someone here will build this for you.     
By "Avenger", you mean "divinely powered striker", right?  If it's low heroic, can I interest you in a Blackguard instead of an avenger?  If post-heroic, a Striker-built Chaladin?

A Kobold worshiper of Bahamat  is going to want heavy armor for the scales, if nothing else.  So if you do want to stick with an Avenger, "Battle Cleric's Lore" via "Divine Healer".  That will free up your stats for a post-racial 18 in Wisdom (and then maybe a 16 in Dex.  Or lower.  You're not using Dex for AC anyway).

I think you're going to want to end up technically worshiping more than one diety, as an Avenger.  Bahamut, for Strength!  Amanator, because the Sun is So Powerful, and I want to borrow its Power! (Morninglord as your Paragon Path)  Ioun! Because I want to know EVERYTHING about Dragons! (Power of skill.)

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I second the idea of rethinking your class, but if you're dead-set on Kobold Avenger of Bahamut, I'd go with a longsword and just pick the best options from the Avenger guide from there.

I'd really suggest holding off on Bahamut stuff right away because Avengers need feats to work well. Maybe go for Godsworn Defender at some point, but the "Multiclass Bahamut" feats will really hurt your character's performance.

Keep in mind you really don't need to pile on every Bahamut-themed item, power, and feat. It's much more effective to just take good stuff and give it a Bahamut theme. Unarmored Agility? Call it Bahamut's Scales. Expertise? Bahamut's Guidance. Fury's Advance? Draconic Strike. At the table, start every sentence with "In accordance with the teachings of Bahamut," and you're done.
That bad, huh? I have access to some errata, so wouldn't the broadsword be preferable, or is the +3 really that good?

Okay, here's a build I'd like help with. I went in favor of an implement Avenger, as that flavor is size-neutral. He uses censure of unity, natch, so the goal is to set up monsters for gangbangs with forced/restricted movement. In the group, the other striker is a rogue.

Attributes: Str 10, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 17, Wis 18, Cha 8
Trained skills: Acrobatics, Endurance, Perception, Religion
At-will: Bond of censure, avenging shackles
Encounter: Day's First Light, Seeking Brand
Daily: Celestial Fist, Glaring Admonition
Utility: Distracting Flare, Loyal Sanction
Feats: Unarmored agility, Superior implement training (astral symbol), Distant Vengeance, Versatile expertise (heavy blade, holy symbol)

Comments: The two weaknesses I see are inability to get CA, and setting one's self up for OoA if monsters keep getting pushed around towards me. My rogue striker assured me he could handle giving me CA. As for AoO, my AC is pretty high, and I have a close power, not to mention kobold shiftiness.

Still undecided about equipment, though. If one were using the generic item rules (3 items, +1 level, at level, -1 level, gold for -1), which would you go with starting out at level six?
I'm not following, erachima. Would you be more specific? How does he not have any class features by going ranged, and what's awful about the powers?
Right. The only powers he has that don't qualify for rerolls are his dailies: fist and admonition. The latter of which makes all implement attacks, including fist, qualify for oath.
Just making sure. If getting oath isn't the issue, then it's the damage, right? If so, what causes the damage discrepancy between implement powers and melee powers? Examples/comparisons would be appreciated.
Getting Oath is the issue...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Some of them are okay. The basic problem with a pure implement option is that they don't get any way of doing a nova - i.e. a way of getting either a multi-attack, a minor action attack, or an off-action attack. And as an Avenger, you're a Striker.

Also, Bond of Censure is very useful, but you lose stat to damage, which dings it a bit. 
Ah, that helps. The only reason I went for implement is that it seems to compliment a small PC better than a weapon-based one would, as he'll never be able to use a fullblade or any other thing with big [W]. But even if he just went with a broadsword, it'd still be better than implement?
Ah, that helps. The only reason I went for implement is that it seems to compliment a small PC better than a weapon-based one would, as he'll never be able to use a fullblade or any other thing with big [W]. But even if he just went with a broadsword, it'd still be better than implement?



Yes. Even with a crap weapon, you will do better with weapon attacks than implement ones.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Yes, but you'll pretty much be better off going with a Craghammer, or even a Rapier (and being pursuit, or whatever the Dex one is) so you can do charges.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
when he spends an action point and gets off all the attacks he can dump into it (Standard, Fury's Advance, Inevitable Strike, At-Will), that will knock most monsters flat dead in a turn.


It should be noted, that this is the goal of every striker. If you can't even finish off a bloodied creature reliably, you're not a striker.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
All right, I'll start from square one. The guide recommended going the ninja build if you're a kobold. I'm having trouble living up to that though, as it's dependent on charging often, which I think is pretty dependent on being able to make your MBA spiffy with the skill domain thing, which I can't have due to Bahamut. In addition, kobolds no longer have the +2 to stealth they did when he was evaluating the races, so I'm not sure what path they ought to take.

Should he still be some variety of charger, even if his MBA is just an MBA, or is there a better route to pursue? Also, the DM won't allow themes or backgrounds.
Just to help you evaluate the advice you're getting...

I'm the dude who wrote the handbook you're referencing.  I'm suggesting "striker spec chaladin or blackguard"

You can build an effective Kobold Avenger.  You can build an effective Kobold Worshiper of Bahamut.  I'm not sure you can do both at the same time.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Oh, cool. Thanks for writing that. Bit frustrating trying to harmonize all this, but fun to read nonetheless.

Would he work as a unitarian? There's no racial wis, and the fullblade would have to be swapped with something else. I was thinking heavy war pick, as the expertise's kicker would work much more for him, is d12, and has high crit, though you'd have to give up rending for bloodiron. Why do you rate that class of weapon so poorly, btw?
I can only applaud your blind dedication, but it would appear you are not understanding what we are trying to convey.


Sure it will work as a unitarian, not better or worse than pursuit or whatever. If you define work as being able to walk around the battle field and occassionaly hit stuff.


If you however want to build a character that meets any kind of CharOp standards or baseline, we strongly suggest you change the race, the class, the diety, or all three.     
Blind dedication's what I'm all about. Not trolling, honest, just interested in the specifics. Era's post was helpful in demonstrating why, down to the numbers, an implement's damage was unimpressive. Here I'm just interested in what makes him fail at unitarianism as well.
Because any kobold Avenger's damage is similarly unimpressive. If your striker's not striking, why did you show up?

I was told there would be cake.

Unity isn't a bad route for you. Cover your baselines as per the handbook and you'll do fine. I'd bet good money your party is not going to be operating around what CharOp considers baseline, so just don't worry about it.

But if you play a few sessions and feel frustrated about your performance, now you know some other options to try.
Censure's are largely meh. Pursuit has a great heroic feat, but Unity scales better at Paragon+. Ultimately though, the loss of Overwhelming Strike as a basic attack, and being small is pretty crippling.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Era's post was helpful in demonstrating why, down to the numbers, an implement's damage was unimpressive. Here I'm just interested in what makes him fail at unitarianism as well.

The basic issue there is just that none of the censures do all that much for you.

Ok, stock avenger, on a kobold chassis.  Level 6.  I'm gonna ignore your diety/fluff preferences here, I'm going for "works".

17 Wis/15 Dex, 12 Int.  I'm building for levels 4-7 here.  I'm also taking a theme and a background (which you don't get).  Background: HP.  Theme, Sohei.

Pick Expertise.  We'll assume EVERY monster is bigger than you.
Unarmored Agility.  Pre-racial 18 (for the damage) means you need to make up the AC.
Power of Skill: Charging is frequently the only way you'll really have to get into melee.
Monastic Disciple: another help for your Nova turn.

Items: 7: +2 vicious Pick.  6: Iron Armbands of Power.  5: Cloak +1 of some sort.  Cash: generic magic armor +2

Daily Nova Turn, assuming adjacent target (really really bad assumption).  Also assuming 2 allies adjacent to the target that needs to die already, and another 1 within Strength of Many's radius.
  Minor: Oath.

  Standard: Strength of Many:
    +12 v. AC hits on an 8.  88% chance of hitting.  A hit deals 3d12+8+2(Censure)+1(expertise), or ~28.5
    28.5 * 0.88 =~ 25.1
    Also, ~+6 to damage rolls from now on.

  Standard: Angeic Alacrity (assuming the target is within 2 squares.   Otherwise you'll regret your censure choice).
    If your target was not adjacent to you at the start, you reverse the order, using Angeic Alacrity to get to the target.  This only moves you two (see note about censure choices), so it's not great.  You also then don't get Strength of Many's bonus damage to this, so you do ~6 less damage.
    +12 v. AC hits on an 8 still.  A hit deals 2d12+9+2(Censure)+6(SoM), or ~30.
    30 * 0.88 =~ 26.4

  Move: Sohei, or Fury's Advance.  1d12+4+2(Censure)+6(SoM), or ~18.5
    19.5 * 0.88 =~ 17.2

  Free: Flurry.  6 damage.  Since it's not a damage roll, it doesn't get SoM bonuses, nor Censure bonuses.

total: 77.   If you hit on all those attacks, you'll take out a standard.  Don't miss. (~32% chance).  Then you won't.  Or if it's a brute, you need to crit.

Now, take away the theme, and you've still got Fury's Advance.   No huge change.
Take away the background, you'll be shy ~5 hp or so.
Take away the deity: no power of skill.  No ability to charge usefully.  Don't get knocked prone, don't get dazed.
Take away the weapon: welcome to a d8 as your best weapon choice.  That's ~2 damage per [W], and 4+1d12 damage per crit. (You trade "+1/2/3 damage w/ CA" for "+1/2/3 damage when fighting bigger things, so that part isn't a huge change).

 On a non-nova turn, you're doing 1d12+9 or 10 on a hit: ~15.5.  That takes out a standard in 5 hits: ie, non-striker damage.  At least you can crit more often than the fighter.

If you want to be confused with a striker, then it's back to Pursuit, and you go for charge kit.  You drop expertise for a Rogue/Fighter MC feat, replace the Monk MC with "Surprising Charge", and replace Unarmored Agility with Cunning Stalker: you need the CA now.   You need your items to go to a Vanguard weapon, you need a specific helmet (Horned Helm).  Your charge is 1d8+7+ 1d8 (Surprising Charge)+1d6(Horned Helm)+1d8(Vanguard Weapon).  That's ~22 damage, or a standard in ~4 hits.  That's still not really striker at-will damage.

That's the area we're dancing in.  A race can give you +2-3 damage via a Wisdom bonus, or Racial Weapon Training feat.  Good choices are worth another ~2 damage from a d12 vs. a d8.  Taking both hits is pretty crippling.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

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