Need logical persist explanation

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
I have Kitchen Finks in play.
Opponent plays doom blade it.
Creature comes back in play with -1-1 counter on it.

All good so far.
Now... opponent plays doom blade again on it, but this time it doesnt comes back because it has -1-1 counter on it right ?
Lets say before that 2nd doom blade i put +1+1 counter in my creature, why it survives doom blade then?? -1-1 counter is still on it.
Persist checks if that -1-1 counter is on creature and if not it comes back from graveyard.
By puting +1+1 counter on creature it also removes -1-1 or what am i missing here?

I dont know if there is some special rule for this or is that ability/combo totaly unlogical.

It will make sense if persist ability will goes like that:
Persist (When this creature dies, if it's not on default power/toughness value return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)
+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other
so putting a +1/+1 counter on a persisted Kitchen Finks basically removes the -1/-1 counter


704.5r If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
proud member of the 2011 community team
Unlogical rule, but there are many im mtg. tnx
Unlogical rule, but there are many im mtg. tnx


No rule is ever "logical".

Besides, without that specific rule, putting a +1/+1 counter on the Finks that has a -1/-1 counter wouldn't allow to come back if killed...

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

It will make sense if persist ability will goes like that:
Persist (When this creature dies, if it's not on default power/toughness value return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)


Then persist (and presumably undying) would be a lot less useful.  Any form of buffing (E.G. Giant Growth or Glorious Anthem) would cause the creature not to come back since it was not at default power/toughness when it died.

And even if Persist worked that way, the Finks would still come back since -1/-1 and +1/+1 would effectivly cancel eachother out and leave the Finks at their default Power/Toughness.  704.5r just decided to go further than "effectivly cancel each other" and move on to "actually cancel each other" and cut down on how much you have to keep track of.
I think the rule that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other is very practical. It lets you just use a single die to show how many counters a permanent has. If your creature has a bunch of +1/+1 counters on it and something gives it -1/-1 counters, you just tick down the die.

This rule was especially handy during the Scars of Mirrodin block, where there were -1/-1 counters everywhere.
I think the rule that +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters annihilate each other is very practical. It lets you just use a single die to show how many counters a permanent has. If your creature has a bunch of +1/+1 counters on it and something gives it -1/-1 counters, you just tick down the die.

And that's exactly why they made the rule: practicality.

Ignoring the first few years of the game where all sorts of counters got used, creature cards used to use almost exclusively +1/+1 counters, to keep down on the complexity of tracking the gamestate. But then Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block came around, the first of which was going to have a strong +1/+1 counter theme, and the latter of which was going to have a strong -1/-1 counter theme. Since this meant cards would frequently be subjected to both kinds of counters, the complexity of the average gamestate would have become significantly greater (a bad thing from a design perspective) if not for the then-new counter-annihilation rule.
Persist (When this creature dies, if it's not on default power/toughness value return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)

Neither Persist nor Undying care about Power nor Toughness. They only care about whether or not there are counters (matching some specific criteria) on the creature as is dies.

As for «default» power/toughness, that concept is the exception, not the rule; almost all effects care about the calculated power and toughness, not the printed numbers. (the only exception being copy effects)

-

Not logical? Lord knows I'm not the one advocating logic in Magic Wink but the +1/+1 VS -1/-1 rule of mutual anhililation is one of the very few perfectly logical rules of the whole book. I can't imagine why you'd have trouble with it.

I dont have trouble with it, im just saying that -1-1 counter is still on that creature when it returns to play. If you "annihilated" that -1-1 counter with puting on it +1+1 counter is silly because -1-1 is still on it, it wasnt removed (practically).
of course it was removed
if the counters annihilate each other they are both gone
proud member of the 2011 community team
There is a practical difference between 'never had a -1/-1 counter' and not having one when it died.
I was under the impression that a permanent with both negative and positive counters on it remained that way until SBAs were checked and they cancelled one another out. Do SBAs get checked between the finks getting a counter and the doomblade resolving?
There are official rules for Magic: The Gathering.  The file containing them is available at this URL


www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx...



In that rules file, it specifically says (under the heading Rule 121: Counters):

"121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters
are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1
counters on it. See rule 704."

In other words, if a creature has one -1/-1 counter on it and you place one +1/+1 counter on it, the game will remove both of the counters as a state-based action leaving the creature with zero counters on it.  This is not a question of logic or interpretation.  The counters come off of the creature, by game rule.

Edit:  If you place counters on a creature using some spell or ability, a player will receive priority after that spell or ability resolves, but before any player get's priority (ever) the game performs state-based actions.   So what happens is, counters are placed on the finks, then removed by state based actions, then the doom blade resolves, then the finks persist triggers.

I was under the impression that a permanent with both negative and positive counters on it remained that way until SBAs were checked and they cancelled one another out. Do SBAs get checked between the finks getting a counter and the doomblade resolving?


Yes, SBAs are always checked right before any plyer would recieve priority and in the cleanup step. Players recieve priority after any one object on the stack (spell or ability) resolves.
Ohh okay, as long as its done before the doom blade.
I dont have trouble with it, im just saying that -1-1 counter is still on that creature when it returns to play. If you "annihilated" that -1-1 counter with puting on it +1+1 counter is silly because -1-1 is still on it, it wasnt removed (practically).


Saying that the counters annihilate eachother doesnt just mean they cancel eachother out - they are both completly removed from the creature.

If a creature has a -1/-1 counter on it, and you add a +1/+1 counter, it will end up with ZERO counters on it - not just with the same p/t altering effect overall as if it had zero counters, but actually zero counters.

~ Tim     

I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
of course it was removed
if the counters annihilate each other they are both gone


That rule is not always "logical" (more like a bit convoluted): see Kinsbaile Borderguard and Incremental Blight.

Borderguard has 2 +1/+1 counters on it, and incremental blight puts 3 -1/-1 counters on it, how many tokens do you get?

:P

ps: don't mind the semi-trolling. ;)

Rules Advisor

The Basic rulebook, read it! A lot of basic questions are answered there!

How to autocard :
Type [c]Black Lotus[/c] to get Black Lotus.
Type [c=Black Lotus]The Overpowered One[/c] to get The Overpowered One.

how many tokens do you get?

five

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

 

Taking offers on my set of unopened limited edition full art judge foil basic lands, message me if interested.
 

That rule is not always "logical" (more like a bit convoluted): see Kinsbaile Borderguard and Incremental Blight.
Borderguard has 2 +1/+1 counters on it, and incremental blight puts 3 -1/-1 counters on it, how many tokens do you get?

You're accusing the wrong rule. 
You get five tokens because all those counters get counted before they get removed, but that's caused by the extra-convulated rule 603.6d (Leaves-the-battlefield abilities), not by 704.5r (counters mutual anhililation).

and this one:
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other statebased actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

 

Taking offers on my set of unopened limited edition full art judge foil basic lands, message me if interested.