Suggestions for a Ranger|Cleric melee 5th man

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The rest of the group (Fighter, Warlord, Archer Ranger, and Enchanter Mage) are pretty optimized, so to a certain degree I don't need to *fully* optimize this guy.  I envision this guy someone who makes life difficult for monsters in melee with out-of-turn attacks as well as ways of provoking the Fighter's mark punishment.  He doesn't need to be as durable as the Fighter, as damage-dealing as the Ranger, or as buffing as the Warlord, but I like the idea of having bits of all that flavor.  His item selection is very vanilla right now (I'll probably add a casque)...does anyone see a good addition to that or the power selection?

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Aedric, level 10
Human, Cleric/Ranger
Hybrid Talent Option: Ranger Fighting Style
Ranger Fighting Style Option: Two-Blade Fighting Style (Hybrid)
Hybrid Cleric Option: Battle Cleric's Lore
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Luruar (Luruar Benefit)
Theme: Guardian
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 12, DEX 12, INT 10, WIS 16, CHA 12
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 12, DEX 12, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 12
 
 
AC: 27 Fort: 23 Ref: 20 Will: 24
HP: 74 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 18
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +15, Endurance +13, History +10, Insight +15, Nature +13, Perception +15
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +5, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, Intimidate +6, Religion +5, Stealth +6, Streetwise +6, Thievery +6
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Hunter's Quarry  Power: Hunter's Quarry
Cleric Attack 1: Brand of the Sun
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Cleric Attack 1: Mighty Hew
Cleric Attack 1: Moment of Glory
Cleric Utility 2: Shield of Faith
Ranger Attack 3: Disruptive Strike
Ranger Attack 5: Frenzied Skirmish
Ranger Utility 6: Death Threat
Cleric Utility 6: Stream of Life
Cleric Attack 7: Warning Strike
Cleric Attack 9: Divine Power
 
FEATS
Toughness
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 2: Battle Awareness
Level 4: Superior Will
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Resilient Focus
Level 10: Improved Initiative
 
ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit
Farbond Spellblade Longsword +2 x1
Harmony Blade Longsword +2 x1
Dwarven Drakescale Armor +2 x1
Symbol of Victory +2 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Steadfast Amulet +2 x1
Acrobat Boots x1
====== End ======
More STR, less WIS, take STR dailies like, say, Weapon of Astral Flame.  Also, Lashing Leaves or Ruffling Sting at 7th, not a cleric power.  This is going to be a striker with some healing utils, not a leader, max the striker side of things.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Getting into paragon, you could hybrid talent for Prime Shot instead of TWF.

Edit:  No need for that Cha or Int either.  Go 10/8 in those and pump other stuff.

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

I like picking up Human in order to do the following:
Pick up Throw & Stab, Twin Strike, and Righteous Brand.
Pick up Power of Skill to turn Righteous Brand into an MBA
Have a throwable option.
Go Str 18/Dex 16/Con 12/Wis 12

That lets you focus on doing Twin Strike or doing some distributed damage+give your Fighter or Warlord a bonus to hit in melee. Plus while you typically do melee, you can do ranged if necessary via Twin Strike.

In any case, I'd point out that if you had Light Blade Expertise, you do an extra point of damage per swing with Rapiers with CA, which can be made very regular with Cunning Stalker.

No minor action attacks? 
More STR, less WIS, take STR dailies like, say, Weapon of Astral Flame.  Also, Lashing Leaves or Ruffling Sting at 7th, not a cleric power.  This is going to be a striker with some healing utils, not a leader, max the striker side of things.



I second this.  You have a warlord and a fighter, no need to grab anything but striker oriented stuff.  your 1/encounter heal will be more than enough and you should be keeping it to heal yourself so you get that +2 to hit UEONT.  It's a good way to set up a nova for example. 

You should really grab an at-will that you can use as an MBA.  Righteous Brand + the feat Power of Skill (requires that you worship a deity like Ioun with the skill domain) would get you that.  The reason is so that your warlord can grant you attacks outside of your turn, but also it's just a good idea to have a power you can use as an MBA.  Righteous Brand also has a nice buff to it as well which I'm sure could come in handy.  You can follow Mommy_was_an_orc's recommendation there, it's a solid way to go.  Or you could not go human, and just pick up twin-strike and righteous brand with the feat.

One option that you could do would be to grab the feat spiked chain training so that you can use a spiked chain as a double light blade weapon.  You wouldn't be able to use it as a ranged weapon but it would open up a lot of the clerics weapon buffing to you and give you reach (meaning you can attack from 2 squares away, easier for your warlord to enable you).  Like the power Weapon of the Gods.  Since it's only one weapon it works quite well.  That would still net you all the support of light blades as well.  It's also a lot less expensive to keep your weapon up to date since you only have to buy one instead of 2.

If you're interested in the above I can post a working build for you to look over.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

If you're going Guardian, really you want a decent MBA of some flavor like was suggested.  The other option is go Sohei for the minor action attack.

Going into Paragon, you might want to consider Hybrid Talent being used for Prime Shot instead.  The series of feats to enhance it for melee attacks are excellent.  That would almost certainly lock you into Light Blades (ie: rapier) though, as you don't have the Dex for Heavy Blade Opportunity, and without that reliable proning, Headsman's Chop is a bit of a waste.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
Having Righteous Brand as an MBA is nice enough, but really not worth a feat for a STR build I don't think.  You have an MBA, it's MBA.  Not worth a feat to do it slightly better, on a build which will be pretty feat-starved as it is - Light Blade builds in general are, and light blades are what you should be using.  Better to retrain at Paragon for Deft Blade, so all your basics with your main weapons are vs Ref.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Having Righteous Brand as an MBA is nice enough, but really not worth a feat for a STR build I don't think.  You have an MBA, it's MBA.  Not worth a feat to do it slightly better, on a build which will be pretty feat-starved as it is - Light Blade builds in general are, and light blades are what you should be using.  Better to retrain at Paragon for Deft Blade, so all your basics with your main weapons are vs Ref.



The advantage of Throw & Stab with Cahulaks is that it is a throwable double-weapon flail and therefore Flail Expertise/Lashing Flail work while it can still be a Frost Cahulak for Twin Strike. i.e. you can prone a lot of targets this way, granting a +3 to hit + CA, while doing additonal distributed weak striker damage on top of it.

And have scary amounts of movement.
None of which goes any way to saying why it's worth spending a feat on Power of Skill on a STR build which has an MBA anyway.

T&S is very nice, though.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
None of which goes any way to saying why it's worth spending a feat on Power of Skill on a STR build which has an MBA anyway.

T&S is very nice, though.



Because instead of doing just an at-will, you're also granting your Fighter friend a +3 bonus to hit for an entire round(or for that matter, whenever else you need an MBA). Which means when the Warlord grants him an attack, he won't miss. Or the Warlord won't miss with his setup power.

I've used the combo - it acts really weird, but it ends up being a lot of fun and effective without seeming CharOp.

Not to mention, you get +1 to a lot of skills.
None of which goes any way to saying why it's worth spending a feat on Power of Skill on a STR build which has an MBA anyway.

T&S is very nice, though.



Because instead of doing just an at-will, you're also granting your Fighter friend a +3 bonus to hit for an entire round(or for that matter, whenever else you need an MBA). Which means when the Warlord grants him an attack, he won't miss. Or the Warlord won't miss with his setup power.

I've used the combo - it acts really weird, but it ends up being a lot of fun and effective without seeming CharOp.

Not to mention, you get +1 to a lot of skills.


Hard to fit the feat in early on, but Power of Skill even on a Straladin or Str Cleric really is good, the +1 skills I think goes unappreciated here most of the time.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
None of which goes any way to saying why it's worth spending a feat on Power of Skill on a STR build which has an MBA anyway.

T&S is very nice, though.



Because instead of doing just an at-will, you're also granting your Fighter friend a +3 bonus to hit for an entire round(or for that matter, whenever else you need an MBA). Which means when the Warlord grants him an attack, he won't miss. Or the Warlord won't miss with his setup power.

I've used the combo - it acts really weird, but it ends up being a lot of fun and effective without seeming CharOp.

Not to mention, you get +1 to a lot of skills.

Thanks all for the feedback.

I had the semi-decent Wisdom score mostly for Brand of the Sun since the Warlord, while great at many things, isn't a great save enabler (no Mark feats in this campaign).  It also makes Moment of Glory hit every so often, but obviously the selling point of that power isn't the hit.  My thought was that Moment of Glory, Stream of Life, and Divine Power would work well for some of the large-scale fights the DM is fond of, but it might be too action-heavy for a build that doesn't have a lot of actions to spare.

The alternative I had in mind was a more nova-capable guy along the lines of what many of you are suggesting, but it sounds like I was underestimating T&S and the trickle down of Righteous Brand.
None of which goes any way to saying why it's worth spending a feat on Power of Skill on a STR build which has an MBA anyway.

T&S is very nice, though.



Because instead of doing just an at-will, you're also granting your Fighter friend a +3 bonus to hit for an entire round(or for that matter, whenever else you need an MBA). Which means when the Warlord grants him an attack, he won't miss. Or the Warlord won't miss with his setup power.

I've used the combo - it acts really weird, but it ends up being a lot of fun and effective without seeming CharOp.

Not to mention, you get +1 to a lot of skills.

Thanks all for the feedback.

I had the semi-decent Wisdom score mostly for Brand of the Sun since the Warlord, while great at many things, isn't a great save enabler (no Mark feats in this campaign).  It also makes Moment of Glory hit every so often, but obviously the selling point of that power isn't the hit.  My thought was that Moment of Glory, Stream of Life, and Divine Power would work well for some of the large-scale fights the DM is fond of, but it might be too action-heavy for a build that doesn't have a lot of actions to spare.

The alternative I had in mind was a more nova-capable guy along the lines of what many of you are suggesting, but it sounds like I was underestimating T&S and the trickle down of Righteous Brand.



There's nothing preventing a nova sequence in that kind of build. You pick up a minor action attack(say Ruffling Sting), multiclass into Avenger for Oath of Enmity. It can actually make the action economy work out better with the following:
Minor: Oath of Enmity
Standard: Throw & Stab
Minor: Ruffling Sting
AP: Twin Strike

Or if you don't need to move, you do Oath+Twin Strike+Twin Strike+Ruffling Sting, but that doesn't happen quite as often.

4 melee attacks on your Oath Target + one random attack against someone else. You get hybrid talent for Prime Shot and then pick up Called Shot, Lasting Frost, all the usual cold suspects. And if you don't kill him, one of your friends gets +3 to hit him.
The downside to Oath on a T&S is that you're burning an attack on a non-oathed target. Eh, mobility is mobility I guess.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
You also get Disruptive Strike vs your oath target if it actually manages to be alive on its go, hopefully - either that or Battle Awareness, most likely, or Mighty Hew if it gives you the opportunity.  This is a build which ought to have off-action atatcks to spare for most of its life.  I can't remember how it starts looking after power-swapping, though - is there another higher-level Mighty Hew?
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Sadly no, however you can spend your Hybrid Talent to gain Channel Divinity, and thus have a Cleric Attack power so you can take 3 Ranger Encounter powers.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Or keep Mighty Hew, it's not exactly a bad power most of the way through paragon.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
That's another advantage of Cahulaks(or other reach weapons that are double-weapons) - you don't need to be adjacent for Mighty Hew.

Yup, mobility is mobility. Deals with the problems of getting that minor action attack off on the oath target, which simply charging won't do.
MC Spiked Chain is a strong contender for any melee ranger, this one included.  Losing out on Battle Awareness and Surprising Charge might hurt, but +3/2d4/reach/stout is nice...
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Take Begin the Hunt as one of your utilities, say @6, and throw that into the Nova sequence.
Roll initiative-Free: Begin the Hunt
                    -Minor: Oath
                    -Standard: Frenzied Skirmish or Attacks on the Run 
                    -Minor: Ruffling Sting
                    -AP: TS 
At this point you should remove or cripple an enemy turn one and be on to the next on turn two. 
Did I miss a change to the rules where you are allowed to have a 2nd level and 6th level utility both be the from the cleric?
Did I miss a change to the rules where you are allowed to have a 2nd level and 6th level utility both be the from the cleric?



no
He took one at 10. Just a lower level one.
Well, you did miss a change in the rules, and by "change", I mean "something that's always been there": retraining. When you are level 2 (lets say A), you can pick either class, when you are level 6 you must pick B, when you are level 10 you can pick either (A again), and now that you have 2 powers from A and 1 from B, you can retrain one of the As into a B.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Well, you did miss a change in the rules, and by "change", I mean "something that's always been there": retraining. When you are level 2 (lets say A), you can pick either class, when you are level 6 you must pick B, when you are level 10 you can pick either (A again), and now that you have 2 powers from A and 1 from B, you can retrain one of the As into a B.

He's taking shape nicely, Ruffling Sting and Astral Weapon are in, as well as some of the other suggested changes.

Non-Optimization caveat: I've tried to tweak the ability scores but I can't get his strength above 21 @10th level.  Superior Will is, in my mind, tied with Expertise as the best heroic-tier feat.  It's painful for me to make a character without it, especially one that relies heavily on mobility.  His wisdom needs to be 15 by the time he hits 8.  I'm hesitant to use Int as the dump stat because he's the History skill check option in the party.  I understand that you roll attack a lot more often than you roll History, but I went to grad school for History, so humor me on being non-optimal in this way.  Finally, to some degree I see him as a "man's man" in the way that Aragorn might be considered one, so while I know I can't have a great Cha, I can't see him with a negative Cha either.  How Aragorn's fights are choreographed in the movies are on the inspirations of my power selection--running all over the place, saving (interrupting) hobbits (fellow PCs) from attacks, etc.  I'd like to apologize in advance if I somehow spawn 20 pages of "How to make Aragorn" discussion.  Maybe we could discuss Damascus steel vs. the katana instead?

Back to Optimization: I'm still toying around with gear, particuarly weapon choice.  Lots of good suggestions to mull over on this regard, so thanks once again.  Does anyone have suggestions for non-weapon items that I may have missed?
Superior Will isn't that great in Heroic, because hardly anything Dazes or Stuns....
You mean Faramir, who wasn't the Steward, his Father was.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Maybe the direct reference to Aragorn was misplaced, but consider (and I'm strictly talking about movie-Aragorn here) his capabilities.  He was tough, but not as tough as Gimli.  He was quick and could be stealthy, but not to the same degree as Legolas.  Translating that to 4e, I'm trying to make this guy second-best at least a few things.  Part of this is because I don't like to compete with other players when it comes to a specific role's spotlight and part of this is so my character can contribute to lots of different types of situations in meaningful ways.  Your points about ability scores is well taken and since he's all Str-powers now; I'll tweak him some more.
I'm hesitant to use Int as the dump stat because he's the History skill check option in the party.  I understand that you roll attack a lot more often than you roll History, but I went to grad school for History, so humor me on being non-optimal in this way.


I will not humor this, you have both an enchanter and a warlord in the party so even with you having training and him not, you are starting at best, equal to them, your Int 0 + training 5 is the same as their Int 5 + training 0, and that's presuming they are neither inclined to train in history, nor be of a race, background, or theme that provides a bonus to it (which would be odd for either Wizards or Warlords).
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.