Mage Hand, More than Just a Cantrip (Comments?)











Mage HandForce, Utilitymain attack
or off-hand carry action
int vsThe range is line-of-sight. Slam or smash +1 target/5 levels int vs con, or sling objects at +1 target/5 levels int vs dex, doing 1d10+int mod force damage. Move +1 object/5 levels up to +80kg for each object(weight of a person)/5 levels, int vs dc10. Reroll each turn to maintain.
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Wish I could.
So try explaining what you are saying a little more clearly then?

Carl
The utility seems extreme.

EXTREME.
Woah... Might want to clean up your formatting, yo.

Wish I could.



Why can't you? Here's what I did.

1. Hit Quote (since it's your post, you would have instead hit Edit)

2. Highlight the words in each section, one section at a time

3. Copy

4. Paste

5. ???????

6. Profit!




Mage Hand

Force, Utility

main attack or off-hand carry action

int vs

The range is line-of-sight. Slam or smash +1 target/5 levels int vs con, or sling objects at +1 target/5 levels int vs dex, doing 1d10+int mod force damage. Move +1 object/5 levels up to +80kg for each object(weight of a person)/5 levels, int vs dc10. Reroll each turn to maintain.
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Why is it force damage if a material, mundane object is doing the damage? Shouldn't it be essentially an improvised weapon for piercing/slashing/bludgeoning?

Still, I'd rather it remain a simple but infinitely useful utility, and a cantrip. But this could be a different telekinetic spell.
Why is it force damage if a material, mundane object is doing the damage? Shouldn't it be essentially an improvised weapon for piercing/slashing/bludgeoning?

Still, I'd rather it remain a simple but infinitely useful utility, and a cantrip. But this could be a different telekinetic spell.


That's an excellent point, but if you could choose between force/piercing/slashing/bludgeoning or even just piercing/slashing/bludgeoning it seems like it would have too much utility. Some are saying it has too much already, although I don't agree. Wizards are supposed to have utility and this isn't extreme IMO.
Do you have an opinion on what campaign settings should be printed in D&D Next? If so, please cast your votes in this poll! Poll: What campaign settings do you want to see printed in D&D Next?
I'm starting to question whether it shouldn't be allowed to do anything the wizard can do with his hands.  Including make a melee attack - as long as it is made with a weapon the size of a dagger or smaller....


Would that really break anything?  Might that even be the solution for those who don't want to give wizard at-will attack spells:  You let them use magic while making their weapon attack?


Carl
I'm starting to question whether it shouldn't be allowed to do anything the wizard can do with his hands.  Including make a melee attack - as long as it is made with a weapon the size of a dagger or smaller....


Would that really break anything?  Might that even be the solution for those who don't want to give wizard at-will attack spells:  You let them use magic while making their weapon attack?


Carl



I think that's a nice idea, but there'd have to be some way of stopping it. Otherwise, the Wizard stands behind full cover, with just a sliver for line of sight, and attacks the enemies. 

If you could find a nice way for the enemy to attack the weapon and knock it down without the Wizard being able to just animate it again, I'd be game. Or even better, if the enemy could just roll and take the weapon. That way there's still some danger for the caster. 
I'm starting to question whether it shouldn't be allowed to do anything the wizard can do with his hands.  Including make a melee attack - as long as it is made with a weapon the size of a dagger or smaller....


Would that really break anything?  Might that even be the solution for those who don't want to give wizard at-will attack spells:  You let them use magic while making their weapon attack?


Carl


That's one of those ideas that I intially see and think that it's broken. But it's really not. If you made it comparable with what their ranged cantrips or ranged weapon attacks are already, what's the difference other than it "feels" more magical?

Here is the 12/17 packet Mage Hand:



Effect:
A spectral, floating hand appears at a point you choose within 50 feet of you. The hand lasts for 1 minute or until you cast this spell again. The hand vanishes if it is ever more than 50 feet away from you. While the hand is present, you can control it as an action. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open a door or a container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents from a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it. The hand cannot attack, use magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds.




Is there anything more current? (I don't have access to my home computer) Also, is allowing things such as attacking or using a magical item truly broken? If so, why?
Do you have an opinion on what campaign settings should be printed in D&D Next? If so, please cast your votes in this poll! Poll: What campaign settings do you want to see printed in D&D Next?
Also, is allowing things such as attacking or using a magical item truly broken? If so, why?

No.
The only purpose that clause serves is ranged denial.
So with mage hand you could use a dagger to throw at an enemy or a rock?
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
So with mage hand you could use a dagger to throw at an enemy or a rock?


As its written today, or at least as of the 12/17/12 packet, nothing that constitutes an attack can it be used for. Let's look at the other wizard cantrips, however:

Chill Touch (melee) - 1d10 necrotic damage, can't regain hit points until the start of YOUR next turn. Goes up to 4d10 at level 16

Shocking Grasp (melee) - 1d10 shocking damage, can't use reactions until ITS next turn. Goes up to 4d10 at level 16.

Ray of Frost (ranged up to 100 feet) - 1d10 cold damage, loses 10 feet of speed until YOUR next turn. Goes up to 4d10 at level 16.

None of these have the utility Mage Hand does, but Mage Hand has no attack that I can see. It is limited to 30 feet of movement a round and has to be within 50 feet of you at all times. I don't see why it can't attack, but since the spell has utility already to lower the damage to d8s or even d6s.

Even keeping it in line with the others at d10s seems reasonable too as the others have in combat effects, I would say very nice combat effects at that. Mage hand has more out of combat effects that are hella useful, but some neat tricks you could do in combat as well such as dropping caltrops in front of your enemies (that's hilarious, actually).
Do you have an opinion on what campaign settings should be printed in D&D Next? If so, please cast your votes in this poll! Poll: What campaign settings do you want to see printed in D&D Next?
Oh so throwing a rock is out of the question? That's disappointing. 
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
Oh so throwing a rock is out of the question? That's disappointing. 

Oh, you can throw a rock all you want, so long as it's not "attacking" anything.

Similarly, it can push buttons all day, unless a button happens to be "magical".  Then it can't for some reason.

Oh so throwing a rock is out of the question? That's disappointing. 

Oh, you can throw a rock all you want, so long as it's not "attacking" anything.

Similarly, it can push buttons all day, unless a button happens to be "magical".  Then it can't for some reason.



Lol, the whole point of throwing a rock would be at the enemy.
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)

Lol, the whole point of throwing a rock would be at the enemy.


I would allow it in my games. As written, you could use it to carry a rock 50 feet away from you then throw it to distract something but you couldn't use it to throw a rock at something if it could cause damage.

I am thinking of allowing attacks in my games, but at 1d6 or something so its more desirable to use another cantrip. However, I have some VERY creative players and if its breakable, they'll break it just out of curiosity if nothing else.  
Do you have an opinion on what campaign settings should be printed in D&D Next? If so, please cast your votes in this poll! Poll: What campaign settings do you want to see printed in D&D Next?

Lol, the whole point of throwing a rock would be at the enemy.


I would allow it in my games. As written, you could use it to carry a rock 50 feet away from you then throw it to distract something but you couldn't use it to throw a rock at something if it could cause damage.

I am thinking of allowing attacks in my games, but at 1d6 or something so its more desirable to use another cantrip. However, I have some VERY creative players and if its breakable, they'll break it just out of curiosity if nothing else.  


Causing damage with it would be useful like if you want to be a telekinesis/force mage. You could do so much with it and even a d6 is okay damage. I think it would be fun!
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
Oh so throwing a rock is out of the question? That's disappointing. 

Oh, you can throw a rock all you want, so long as it's not "attacking" anything.

Similarly, it can push buttons all day, unless a button happens to be "magical".  Then it can't for some reason.



Lol, the whole point of throwing a rock would be at the enemy.

Ah, but throwing a rock at that magic button might work, unless a DM believes the button is being "attacked".

My issue with this power is it really takes the steam out of traps. True that traps are overdone so maybe its a good thing that every wizard can lift almost any chest or trigger any trap.  
I'm starting to question whether it shouldn't be allowed to do anything the wizard can do with his hands.  Including make a melee attack - as long as it is made with a weapon the size of a dagger or smaller....


Would that really break anything?  Might that even be the solution for those who don't want to give wizard at-will attack spells:  You let them use magic while making their weapon attack?


Carl



I think that's a nice idea, but there'd have to be some way of stopping it. Otherwise, the Wizard stands behind full cover, with just a sliver for line of sight, and attacks the enemies. 

If you could find a nice way for the enemy to attack the weapon and knock it down without the Wizard being able to just animate it again, I'd be game. Or even better, if the enemy could just roll and take the weapon. That way there's still some danger for the caster. 



Um- they can do that now with their spells.

And they would be giving up their spells in exchange for their awesome melee attacks this way.  So I don't see the problem with that aspect.


I really don't see this as unbalancing in any way for the mage.  I do see it as a potential problem for the High Elf Fighter (which is why it is limited to a dagger - and might need a rule somewhere which specifies that it doesn't with with maneuvers, etc.)

But for the normal wizard, I really don't see how it unbalances.


Carl
I'm starting to question whether it shouldn't be allowed to do anything the wizard can do with his hands.  Including make a melee attack - as long as it is made with a weapon the size of a dagger or smaller....


Would that really break anything?  Might that even be the solution for those who don't want to give wizard at-will attack spells:  You let them use magic while making their weapon attack?


Carl



I think that's a nice idea, but there'd have to be some way of stopping it. Otherwise, the Wizard stands behind full cover, with just a sliver for line of sight, and attacks the enemies. 

If you could find a nice way for the enemy to attack the weapon and knock it down without the Wizard being able to just animate it again, I'd be game. Or even better, if the enemy could just roll and take the weapon. That way there's still some danger for the caster. 



Um- they can do that now with their spells.

And they would be giving up their spells in exchange for their awesome melee attacks this way.  So I don't see the problem with that aspect.


I really don't see this as unbalancing in any way for the mage.  I do see it as a potential problem for the High Elf Fighter (which is why it is limited to a dagger - and might need a rule somewhere which specifies that it doesn't with with maneuvers, etc.)

But for the normal wizard, I really don't see how it unbalances.

Carl


I agree.  Also, since the spell creates a spectral hand to manipulate things, it can always be disarmed.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.


Lol, the whole point of throwing a rock would be at the enemy.


I would allow it in my games. As written, you could use it to carry a rock 50 feet away from you then throw it to distract something but you couldn't use it to throw a rock at something if it could cause damage.

I am thinking of allowing attacks in my games, but at 1d6 or something so its more desirable to use another cantrip. However, I have some VERY creative players and if its breakable, they'll break it just out of curiosity if nothing else.  


Causing damage with it would be useful like if you want to be a telekinesis/force mage. You could do so much with it and even a d6 is okay damage. I think it would be fun!



The hand can only carry 10 pounds. Way too weak to do damage with a rock unless you are throwing with gravity (off castle walls). A molotov cocktail is a better example or pulling the trigger on a light crossbow.
could work it similar to GURPS telekinesis. when attacking with it, so swinging a dagger, throwing a rock. you count as having an equivalent str score equal to your magic stat
Doesn't the 10# limit give magehand an effective STR of 1?
Doesn't the 10# limit give magehand an effective STR of 1?



5 lbs pressure kills when applied in the right half a dozen spots.. and 10lbs kills in about a dozen. 

Its not the force but how and where its applied. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Its not the force but how and where its applied. 


That sounds like a companion to the old "It's not the size of the boat but the motion of the ocean" saying.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Its not the force but how and where its applied. 


That sounds like a companion to the old "It's not the size of the boat but the motion of the ocean" saying.



Well the egg shell fragility of humanity was something my father taught me... but ocean motion was a freindly coed.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Doesn't the 10# limit give magehand an effective STR of 1?



5 lbs pressure kills when applied in the right half a dozen spots.. and 10lbs kills in about a dozen. 

Its not the force but how and where its applied. 



As a three year old can kill with a crossbow or dagger.
I have a girl who could even when 6 or so swing a shinai with intimidating verve and gusto
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Mage Hand could even have a shift ability based degree of success. Roll a natural 20 and the target is also pushed 5 feet.

The dagger idea is better suited to Dagger Wall or MagicMissile.

Force here is the speed of the telekinetic power.
The dagger idea is better suited to Dagger Wall or MagicMissile. Force here is the speed of the telekinetic power.


I disagree here. There's no reason mage hand shouldn't be able to carry around a dagger and do SOMETHING with it. Even a d4 or d6 attack that scaled up to 4d4 or 4d6 isn't gamebreaking. In fact, it's not even as good as Ray of Frost in damage (1d10 to 4d10), and has half the range, and takes two rounds even to get to that half range!

Also, if the mage hand does damage itself I can see that being force damage. However, if force pushes a dagger, that's piecing and if that force throws a rock, that's bludgeoning.

Is anyone going to amend Mage Hand to be able to attack with a dagger, throw rocks, etc? I think personally at the LEAST a d4 and scale it like the other cantrips in my games. You're going to have to get creative with it to make it a better combat move than ray of frost, for example, but I want to encourage that exact creativity as thats the moments I enjoy most. 
Do you have an opinion on what campaign settings should be printed in D&D Next? If so, please cast your votes in this poll! Poll: What campaign settings do you want to see printed in D&D Next?
I think mage hand should be able to attack. I want to be able to project telekinetic force like Gandalf and Saurumon. I also think the weight limit should scale with level. The damaging cantrips all scale with level, so why not mage hand?
I think mage hand should be able to attack. I want to be able to project telekinetic force like Gandalf and Saurumon. I also think the weight limit should scale with level. The damaging cantrips all scale with level, so why not mage hand?


That's how I feel. I mean I love TV shows like Charmed. Prue was able to telekineticly make someone's tie choke them as well as throw them into walls. Obviously throwing someone into a wall is more than what mage hand should be able to do but throwing a rock or a dagger is creative and is within the range of weight. 
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
I think mage hand should be able to attack. I want to be able to project telekinetic force like Gandalf and Saurumon. I also think the weight limit should scale with level. The damaging cantrips all scale with level, so why not mage hand?


That's how I feel. I mean I love TV shows like Charmed. Prue was able to telekineticly make someone's tie choke them as well as throw them into walls. Obviously throwing someone into a wall is more than what mage hand should be able to do but throwing a rock or a dagger is creative and is within the range of weight. 



Even if there was a spell like that which there might be there is no reason to use it. The current Wizard isnt designed for duals. Why have a telekinetic wrsetling match when intiatives one spell and Ray of Frost ends every dual in two rounds or less?
I think mage hand should be able to attack. I want to be able to project telekinetic force like Gandalf and Saurumon. I also think the weight limit should scale with level. The damaging cantrips all scale with level, so why not mage hand?


That's how I feel. I mean I love TV shows like Charmed. Prue was able to telekineticly make someone's tie choke them as well as throw them into walls. Obviously throwing someone into a wall is more than what mage hand should be able to do but throwing a rock or a dagger is creative and is within the range of weight. 



Even if there was a spell like that which there might be there is no reason to use it. The current Wizard isnt designed for duals. Why have a telekinetic wrsetling match when intiatives one spell and Ray of Frost ends every dual in a two rounds or less?


Because maybe something like a small telekinesis spell could be effective if its created? Personally I never chose to do anything like that since the option was never there. But honestly telekinesis is a power that has interested me since watching Charmed- well even before that with The Secret World of Alex Mack.
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/RockNrollBabe20/Charmed-supernatural-and-charmed_zps8bd4125f.jpg)
I think mage hand should be able to attack. I want to be able to project telekinetic force like Gandalf and Saurumon. I also think the weight limit should scale with level. The damaging cantrips all scale with level, so why not mage hand?


That's how I feel. I mean I love TV shows like Charmed. Prue was able to telekineticly make someone's tie choke them as well as throw them into walls. Obviously throwing someone into a wall is more than what mage hand should be able to do but throwing a rock or a dagger is creative and is within the range of weight. 



Even if there was a spell like that which there might be there is no reason to use it. The current Wizard isnt designed for duals. Why have a telekinetic wrsetling match when intiatives one spell and Ray of Frost ends every dual in a two rounds or less?


Because maybe something like a small telekinesis spell could be effective if its created? Personally I never chose to do anything like that since the option was never there. But honestly telekinesis is a power that has interested me since watching Charmed- well even before that with The Secret World of Alex Mack.



Do you want a lesser version of Telekenisis to be more effective than a two spell combo that causes kills in two rounds?





























































































See my update.




















































Blade Barrierforce
abjuration
reactionint vs acAll your attackers take power die damage. You may not attack with other actions while the barrier is up.
Force Orbforce
area assault
main + off-handint vs acTargets are pelted by objects in an additional radius of 5 feet every 5 levels doing your power die in damage.
Mage Armorforce abjurationfreestatic bonusAt the beginning of the encounter, your armor class increases by your power die static bonus.
Mage Handforce
utility
off-handint vs dc10Move an additional 16kg (sack of potatoes) an additional 5 feet per turn every level-up. Reroll int vs dc 10 every turn to maintain your concentration. As an off-hand action, add your power die in force damage to your main weapon attack.
Pressure Bloodforce
assault
see detailsint vs conAs an off-hand attack, 1 target is grappled and attacks at disadvantage while being attacked at advantage.
As a main attack, also do power die damage.
Spectral Shiftforce
assault
see detailsint vs strAs an off-hand attack, shift 1 target an additional 5 feet every 5 levels.
As a main attack, also do power die damage.
Spectral Slingforce
assault
mainint vs dex1 target is pelted by objects doing your power die in damage.










































Power Die Table
LevelDieOr +/-
1-51d42
6-101d63
11-151d84
16-201d105
21-251d126
So here, we see where it might be possible for a power to trade multiple actions for area damage.

The idea is to trade something.
More Actions/Speed for Greater Damage
Greater Damage for More Actions/Speed