Dimir Ideas

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I'm trying to come up with an idea for a Gatecrash deck with the sole purpose of trying to make the Dimir actually work. I will save all other players the work and I will simply list some ideas of mine that simply have not taken flight.

When I first tried to construct a Dimir deck, I simply piled all of the Dimir-marked Gatecrash cards I owned (which is ALL of the commons and uncommons in Gatecrash - I split a booster box) and put them all into a deck that relied on cyphering off of unblockable creatures. The only problem? Every single good card had a mana cost of 4 or greater.

Scrapping that idea, I moved on to a proxy deck filled with Invisible Stalkers and Hands of Bindings (I should mention I have Hands of Binding), which went faster than cyphered cards on Deathcult Rogue or Incursion Specialist. Still, my friends use creature/burn decks and decks that target your life itself (talking about Boros and Orzhov, here), so I edited my deck again. This time, I focused on mill/kill, which uses the Duskmantle Guildmage + Mindcrank combo to finish off an opponent in a minimum of 5 turns. 

You can probably guess the problem here.

On top of also being a proxy deck, this one made my friends target me first in free-for-alls and I always died first. So, I most recently put in all cheap (CMC cheap, not $ cheap) Dimir cards I have, including Lazav, Dimir MastermindSoul Ransom, Nightveil Specter, and Whispering Madness. Speaking of madness, you would think that there's really no theme to this deck from the look of it. That turned out to be correct, and none of my cards worked out well together. The high part of the deck was when Consuming Aberration worked with my cyphered cards (on Deathcult Rogue) and I killed my opponents with a Way of the Thief enchanting it - yes, I had a Gate.

So, basically, my efforts to be a loyal Dimir fan are being shaken by the combination of the numerous possiblities of card combos and their extremely high mana costs. I am afraid that there may not be any good possibilities in Gatecrash for Dimir, but I want someone, somewhere in the world to prove me wrong.

Using any cards from Gatecrash (it doesn't have to have a Dimir mark on it and it can be any color - not just blue or black), please help me to build the very best Dimir deck possible. I would prefer not to use any cards from Ravnica: City of Guilds because transmuting is not really what I'm going for in this deck.

If anyone needs more specifics, I will monitor this post daily so feel free to ask questions.

The Eye of Lazav is watching us all.

                                                                                                        Hand 
Hello.

Dimir is actually a good example of a guild that appeals to everyone in one way or another. That is: how do you plan on winning with Dimir? The answer is up to you, the deckbuilder.

Limiting yourself to just gatecrash cards is very...well, limiting. I'd recommend building the deck on paper before any card-buying goes on. But before that, there needs to be a consensus on how you want to win.

Based on what you said you did, you tried mill, aggro and combo styles. Which did you think was the most fun? (Going deeper here) Do you consider winning to be the only way to have fun? Do you want to flavorfully represent what the Dimir guild is all about in your deck? These are things that you need to consider first, and you have to make it your focus. I can only assume you know what Dimir is all about; subterfuge, sabatoge, stealth, sneakiness in general, etc. So why not roll with that theme.

For me, dimir needs to run in the shadows, making sure that it's keeping tabs on its opponents without overextending its resources. For this, you need to 1) not be overly aggressive, and 2) have an answer to problems that are being thrown your way. This is best done with control. To get an idea, just look on Google or these forums for blue/black control decks.

Some cards to keep in mind:
Tormented soul
reins of power
clone (and its variants)
shadowmage infiltrator
mind grind
nemesis of reason
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Are you making a casual mill deck? Please read.
Control is the key of a mill deck. You should free up your mana as much as possible so that you can respond to whatever your opponent is doing. Having some way to remove threats, both real and percieved, is necessary to survival. Real threats are those that are already on the field, and are something a simple unsummon or doom blade can remove. Percieved threats are those that aren't on the field, something a simple duress or counterspell can deal with. Controlling the board will allow your mill deck to continuously perform, if you use permanent style mill, that is. One-Shot Mill spells are something you should avoid. You can toss tome scours at your opponent until your hand runs out, but that isn't going to be enough to mill them to death. With 1-shot mill spells, like tome scour, you have to treat them like burn spells. Therefore, the only "good" 1-shot mill spells are sanity grinding (in the right deck) and mind funeral. Try to find more permanent styles of milling, like memory erosion, hedron crab, and curse of the bloody tome, so that you don't have to waste your mana each turn doing something that those permanents can do with a single mana/turn investment. Keeping your mana open allows you to respond with control elements. ​Traumatize Rant​. Traumatize is a terrible card for a multitude of reasons. First, it costs 5 to cast, which is a large investment for a mill deck. Milling half a library sounds neat, but if you do the math, it really isn't that much. An average 60 card deck starts with drawing 7 cards. Then, barring any draw spells on their end, or ramp on yours, 5 turns will go by, where they draw 5 more cards, leaving 48 in the deck. Unless they had a deck with more than 60 cards, or you ramped it out, the most you'll ever mill with a single Traumatize on turn 5 is 24 cards. That's not too shabby, but hang on, there's more! If they drew any additional cards or if they were milled before turn 5, that number will be much lower. In addition, any more Traumatize's you draw will only mill less and less as the game goes on...which is the point of a mill deck. My whole point on Traumatize is the it is NOT worth the 5 mana investment, not even with haunting echoes. You can mill more than 24 before turn 5...which you can then cast the echoes. If you look at a mill deck like a burn deck, you'll notice that it takes longer to win with mill than with burn. For example, lightning bolt costs 1 and does 3 out of the 20 damage needed to win (barring any lifegain or damage prevention). For mill, that same investment of 1 would have to mill 9 cards out of an average 60 card deck to be the equivilent of lightning bolt. The problem is that there is no mill card that can do that...except hedron crab, over a period of time. The initial investment of 1 will pay off in 3 more land drops to make the crab equal to a bolt. However, the crab nets you more mill beyond those 3 land drops, making it better as the game draws on. Other cards, like curse of the bloody tome, are excellent ways of milling an opponent because the initial investment of is all you have to pay in order to put your opponent on a clock. All you have to do is stay alive, which is the true goal of a mill strategy. There are other ideas for mill decks that are specific to certain types of strategies. Combo mill decks can mill an entire player's library out from under them. Secondary mill strategies are usually tied to another strategy, like drowner of secrets in a merfolk deck, or halimar excavator in an ally deck. Milling can be done in certain decks that are able to ramp out enough mana to make use of the higher costing mill spells, like using 16 post to pay for X on sands of delirium or for ambassador laquatus. Multiplayer mill decks are even tougher to build, but can be done. Being a slower environment, it is easier to ramp in multiplayer, allowing for big X spells, like mind grind, to be useful. Consuming aberration is another star player. The more straightforward strategy is to use mesmeric orb and dreamborn muse while being the only deck at the table that can deal with it. There are always new strategies coming out with each set, so check gatherer for any new mill cards that you find to be the most fun for you! Now you can say that you haven't fallen into the trap that most new players fall into when they build their first mill deck!
Okay, in response to this comment:
I am very interested in the essence of Dimir (lurking in the shadows, etc.)
I am very interested in mill cards since I have a weakness for exceptional game-winning situations
I really need Gatecrash cards because that's the unwritten rule my friends and I follow
AND
I keep telling my associates that you don't have to play Magic to win and rather just to have fun. And do you know what happens? I lose. Then I lose again. Then I lose so many times after that that it's just not funny anymore. I hate Boros with a vengeance and Orzhov is starting to get on my nerves, and I don't even consider myself to be a "serious" player (it probably seems to be just the opposite, I'm sure).
If it's all the same to you all, I just want to be able to win more than one round with Gatecrash Dimir and I would like to control my opponent's actions as well as mill him/her to death. And keep in mind my deck need not be a simple 60-card deck, it can be as high as 80 if need be.
I thank Keino for your contribution as it has been of some help to me.

And none of that is supposed to be offensive, so you all know. [;)]
My buddy is a big mill player, and is somewhat happy with the Dimir guild. The mill till you reveal X lands can be a massive advantage and can deck your oppenent quickly, but it tends to be high cast. That's the main issue we are running into is the high cast. I'm thinking about running a take on suicide black and aggresive mill, with a few solid black flying extort cards, to keep the pressure up.
If you're open to cards from other sets comboing milling with Bloodchief ascension would give you some nice damage and life gain. Also definitely run some Negate and Mana Leak. I use those in my Dimir deck just because I like to force my opponents into difficult decisions. I'm planning on posting my deck to the forums soon.
mill deck that works (unfortunately a majority is non-gatecrash):

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...(that_works)

it comes down to 2 ways of milling

1) fast mill (lots and lots of powerful cheap spells, probably should win around turn 5-6)
2) progressive mill- what i run. in these kind of decks you need to be able to hold out longer (more creatures, more control)

cards like whispering madness are cool mill cards, that effect everybody too. mind grind is cool, consuming aberration is great. but in order to effectively mill your deck has to be really focused on milling. thats a problem most people face. if half the cards in your deck aren't mill related...good luck

~Your either my puppet or my matchstick~

color preferences (1st is fav and so on):

198732583 wrote:
Oh Ajani seems to like Elpheth's milk, meow.
Was just thinking along these lines today, as between the pre-release, a fat pack, and a box, I ended up with three Lazavs and two watery graves. Now the problem with Lazav is he's really dependant on what your opponents have in their decks. In theory, you mill something ugly, then mimic it, and he's your alternate win-con. I think cards that pull things back from your opponent's graveyard would work well in a deck like that. Let's see-
Diluvian Primordial has high cmc, but is powerful. If you can cipher Voidwalk you can retrigger the ETB effect. Sepulchral Primordial does the same. If you want to go back to Return to Ravnica, you'll find the Deathrite Shaman a usefull tool, if you don't mind the $ price. More CMC intensive, but an absolute beast with the stealing from the grave theme is Grave Betrayal- you just need a way to be sure you're killing their creatures. You can also cast Chronic Flooding on your opponent's lands to help with the mill. Going back to M13, we've got Jace's Phantasm to pump damage. There's also Rise from the Grave. Probably a few more I'm overlooking.

Oh- a Crypt Ghast should help ramp your mana rather nicely. Hmm, I just may have the tools I need for a good mill deck... Maybe I'll throw one together and see how it plays. 
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Does it have to be GTC only? Or is standard viable? (m13 and the innistrad block?). Or even just RtR with m13?
-
Off the top of my head, I think I would go with unblockable/flyers with Cipher, and using mill as a ressource, NOT as a win condition.
What do I mean by that? I mean that I'd like to use cards like Wight of Precinct Six, Jace's Phantasm and Consuming Aberration.
So my goal is still aggro, but with an element of mill to use the opponents yard as a ressource to buff my creatures, making them all the more deadly.
-
But yeah, restricting myself to only GTC....I'd have to take a look at my bulk of cards another time and come back here with an idea. As of now I can only think of a "very casual" dimir deck which is also somewhat unfocused, unfortunately...
1) fast mill (lots and lots of powerful cheap spells, probably should win around turn 5-6) 2) progressive mill- what i run. in these kind of decks you need to be able to hold out longer (more creatures, more control)

These steps will probably become the plan of my deck. However, I may add other Standard cards to my deck, such as Invisible Stalker (I believe Innistrad is Standard). Also, I want to use unblockable/cypher to pull off multiple copies of Consuming Aberration with Stolen Identity cyphered onto the Stalker.
Maybe I'll throw one together and see how it plays.

I shall be interested to see how that comes out. Keep adding posts, everyone, since I need all the help I can get!
Hello, this is my first post so I hope I get the autocard right. I made a Dimir deck for fun and found through playtesting that milling has to always be a secondary benefit/wincon but using it to help other things become wincons. This is what I tried and it worked fairly well.

This was made with the cards my wife and I pulled from serveral packs. Hopefully it helps.
I didn't have the time to explain my choices really so I will take a second to do so .

I don't own yet a   so I did a semi-build around Duskmantle Seer . If I had one I would have used it and changed a couple of things. Instead of Brainstorm and ponder to help setup/dig I would use something like Thought Scour to help mill/draw.
Through play testing I found that Dream Twist was a better fit for the deck with its low casting cost, instant speed and flashback for later use instead of a card like Mind Sculpt .
When it came to removal I found that Grisly Spectacle and Dimir Charm along with Psychic Strike and Dispel to help with decks that use alot of charms worked quite well.

I didn't use any 3 mana cost creatures because I found at that time in the game I was playing and wanting to protect Paranoid Delusions (protecting it was Dispel ) or I wanted to sit back on my mana for Psychic Strike to disrupt there combos and flow. By turn 4 with some luck having a Nephalia Drownyard in play and being able to do things on the end of there turn helps out alot. Wight of Precinct Six can become a beast fast throught milling and with enough control in hand can win you some games. If you face a anti-graveyard deck swap him out for Augur of Bolas for a decent blocker and dig card.

Dimir Charm is a very good card. All the modes become quite useful throughout a game. Its countering a key sorcery or killing a low power creature or helping you dig for a card you need or keeping your opponent from getting there combo going, its a good card to rely on.

The main thing I can suggest is stay away from high costing cipher spells/creatures or even guildgates. By the time you get them out you won't be able to protect them properly with  Psychic Strike , rather try and sit on your mana turn 4 on and Nephalia Drownyard them slowly down.

Again I hope things helps out.
...wow...
um...what can I say?
IndigoCobalt, this is an amazing idea! Incredibly epic!

Of course, it could use a couple of things:

I was playing and wanting to protect Paranoid Delusions (protecting it was Dispel )

I would use Psychic Strike, personally. The 3-mana cost is well worth it, and it counters any spell.
Also,

Dimir Charm is a very good card.

YeeeeAAAHHHH! Obvioulsly the best "control" charm since you can combine it with Wight of Precinct Six and Consuming Aberration. Always plan ahead!

However, Duskmantle Seer is a flop. Even though it is a 4/4 flier for 4 mana, it's ability will likely kill you before your opponent. Unless you have a lot of cheap cards, in which you would lose Consuming Aberration.

I really like this idea, though!
I would like to see a deck that:

probably should win around turn 5-6

Intriguing!
...wow... um...what can I say? IndigoCobalt, this is an amazing idea! Incredibly epic! Of course, it could use a couple of things:
I was playing and wanting to protect Paranoid Delusions (protecting it was Dispel )

I would use Psychic Strike, personally. The 3-mana cost is well worth it, and it counters any spell. Also,
Dimir Charm is a very good card.

YeeeeAAAHHHH! Obvioulsly the best "control" charm since you can combine it with Wight of Precinct Six and Consuming Aberration. Always plan ahead! However, Duskmantle Seer is a flop. Even though it is a 4/4 flier for 4 mana, it's ability will likely kill you before your opponent. Unless you have a lot of cheap cards, in which you would lose Consuming Aberration. I really like this idea, though! I would like to see a deck that:
probably should win around turn 5-6

Intriguing!


somebody is excited :P

~Your either my puppet or my matchstick~

color preferences (1st is fav and so on):

198732583 wrote:
Oh Ajani seems to like Elpheth's milk, meow.
lol.
Why isn't everyone else as pumped as I am when Dimir is in the Multiverse?

Better yet, what can everyone else possibly be excited about, besides Eldrazi?[:p]