Help me break my card

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Ok, I designed this is Dudibus' contest but I don't really think it fits the qualifications.  That said, I'm posting it here for feedback and polish because I love the idea (what designer doesnt love his own designs.)

I feel like the design could turn into a pretty bad exploit, but maybe its not as bad as I think.

Original: 
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Peacock of the Harvest      
Creature - Bird

Flying
:Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
:Scry 1.

You gotta let me fly on this one!

2/1


After round one comments:  Either
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Peacock of the Harvest    

Flying
: Add to your mana pool
: Scry 1 (activate this ability only during your main phase)

At the end of each turn, shuffle your library.
2/1


or
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Peacock of the Harvest   

Flying
: Add to your mana pool
:Draw a card.

2/1  (Now that I see this version on paper it looks stupid powerful)


If you find any cards that make this particularly broken, let me know!  I was thinking of adding clauses in the card as well.  (for Scry:  This ability is unaffected by abilities which lower the mana cost of activated abilities, or for Mana:  Use this mana only to activate abilities of cards named ~).

At the end of the day I want to make a one card Infinite Combo, but I don't want it to be over powered.
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This card's already broken. It effectively lets you see the order of your deck and draw whatever card you need whenever you need it.
Rules Advisor
Yeah, it breaks itself. You can always choose which card is on top of your library. In a combo deck, that's all you need.
"The body is but a vessel for the soul, a puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny. And lo, the body is not eternal, for it must feed on the flesh of others, lest it return to the dust from whence it came. Therefore must the soul deceive, despise and murder men."The Durai Papers

The mana fixing power itself is pushing it, even without the scry issue. It lets you put in any number of colorless mana and get the exact colors you need. I'd just have it tap to add  instead.

As far as the untapping scry, the problem is that the cards you "dump" go on the bottom of the deck. You can scry around your whole deck each time you want to draw a card, and get exactly the card you want without losing anything. If you want the card to be more reasonable, try dumping the unwanted card into the graveyard instead.
Is it any different than a tutor?  You cycle your entire deck until you get the card you want on top.  Then your opponent has the opportunity to mill the card into your graveyard.  you still need a way to draw the card.

Being a creature makes it pretty fragile too.  ANY removal kills this thing, meaning you have to have the cards to optimise it in hand already when the removal is cast.

I can see an issue in a storm deck though, so you have a point.  Scry for Cantrip add nauseum until you're ready to Storm (would require a lot of mana though).  Maybe the Scry ability should only be useable as a Sorcery?  Then again at 5 CMC, this thing is slower than most of the already existent Infinite Combo storms, it simply requires less assembly.
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I'd just have it tap to add  instead.



I think you have a good point there.  I'll fix that.  What about ?

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Or tap to add , but require to activate the second ability?
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
In reponse to mill I just scry again.
Or tap to add , but require to activate the second ability?



really want the card to go infinite, but thats a possibility.
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Or tap to add , but require to activate the second ability?



really want the card to go infinite, but thats a possibility.


Orochi Leafcaller
Rules Advisor

Ok, so people are scared of infinite scry in one tiny, vulnerable package.  Is there no casting cost that would make this ok?

What if the card had a "You may only draw one card a turn.  If an effect would cause you to draw more than one card in a turn, put that card on the bottom of your library."

What if it were card draw instead?  Words of Worship and Well of Lost Dreams would then accomplish the same thing it could but faster.  Also this exists.

I originally thought Scry would be weaker than Card Draw though, since Scry wouldnt get anything in your hand to use, you would need other cards to support your plan.

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Or tap to add , but require to activate the second ability?



really want the card to go infinite, but thats a possibility.


Orochi Leafcaller



Yeah, that's why its a possibility.  Still infinite, but now its an infinite combo.

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Ok, so people are scared of infinite scry in one tiny, 



I hate it more if people are not scared of infinite in any one card anymore.


This might as well say:


"Play with your library revealed.
If you would draw a card, choose a card from your library and put it into your hand instead."

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

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Its a bad design decision to make a single card an infinite anything, unless at some crazy high mana cost.
Ok, so people are scared of infinite scry in one tiny, vulnerable package.  Is there no casting cost that would make this ok?

Well, draw your library apparently costs 12, so maybe for 12 mana this card would also be reasonable.

Rules Advisor
Well I'm going for "Infinite Useable" not "Infinite Auto-Win".  I originally thought a redundant ability could be useful:

Lose 1 Life
Gain 1 life

That way you could pair it with other cards (I though Scry was nice because it would still require outside sources to be used (until I read your post Atog, I did miss that angle). 

Infinite comboes are so easy to assemble these days I figured putting it on one card would just be a matter of pushing the casting cost up for one card.
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At the end of the day I want to make a one card Infinite Combo, but I don't want it to be over powered.



Well there's your problem.
Ok, so people are scared of infinite scry in one tiny, vulnerable package.  Is there no casting cost that would make this ok?

Well, draw your library apparently costs 12, so maybe for 12 mana this card would also be reasonable.




You can't interrupt Enter the Infinite mid action.  You can respond to the birds activation by targeting it with removal.  Again, all the tricks you could do after that are a whole other thing.

Activate bird
Targeted by removal
Activate bird (until desired card is on top, lets say a counterspell)
Cast Cantrip
Draw Counterspell
Counter removal
Activate Bird

It still requires a card and additional mana.  Otherwise you just get to put one card of your choice on top of your library.  Not to mention the bird would have summoning sickness for one turn leaving it pretty vulnerable.

Maybe 6 CMC?    7, with a triple requirement?

So, what if I add "Only use this as a Sorcery" AND "At the end of each of your turns shuffle your library."


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i'm surprised you are still arguing for infintie on single card.

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

[spoiler MLP]Congratulations, you've found My Lie Policy: Only when i'm prompted, i might lie. (policy still in the refinement process.) [/spoiler] [spoiler I am both rational and instinctive. I value self-knowledge and understanding of the world; my ultimate goal is self-improvement and improvement of the world around me. At best, I am focused and methodical; at worst, I am obsessive and amoral.]I am Blue/Green
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The infinite scrying is tons more powerful than you think.
If people are going to mill you, you scry the appropriate amount of cards before getting back the card you want.
If people are going to kill it, you scry until you get the best combination of cards coming up next.

There's a reason the library is supposed to be a hidden zone.

I think the adds green, needs blue is a good start, but even then it's more-than-likely too good. I feel the untapping Scry ability should require two or some additional cost personally.

Like:

:T:: Add :GM: to your mana pool.
:UM:, , put the top card of your library into your graveyard: Scry 1.

that way there is a negative impact to scrying through your deck (it gets smaller)
it can still combo with relative ease
it also plays well with other decks of (typically) the same colors. (GU self mill.)

And with that, I'd STILL say it's probably too good, because the combo cards are all very cheap.
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If people are going to kill it, you scry until you get the best combination of cards coming up next.



Maybe you are right and I don't understand how powerful it is, but how can I accomplish this ^ with Scry 1.  You are simply rotating cards until you get one on top, you have no way of changing the order of those cards.  Thats why I didn't make it Scry 2 or 3, which would allow you to manipulate your entire deck.  You guys have helped me identify cards which would break this though: Cantrips.

I'm not saying its not powerful, I want it to be powerful.  I don't want it to be game breakingly powerful.  I don't think its nearly as powerful as Necropotence, I think people get hung up on "infinite"  just because something can go infinite doesnt mean its broken or overpowered.  This card still needs other cards to MAKE it overpowered, otherwise it just lets you choose what you draw each turn.

What if it were just:

Tap Bird     
Creature - Bird

: Tap Tap Bird
: Tap Tap Bird

2/1

Its infinite, is it overpowered?

I'll abandon the idea though, at this point its turning into exactly what theatog said minus the play with your library revealed.
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[You can't interrupt Enter the Infinite mid action.  You can respond to the birds activation by targeting it with removal.  Again, all the tricks you could do after that are a whole other thing.

Activate bird
Targeted by removal
Activate bird (until desired card is on top, lets say a counterspell)
Cast Cantrip
Draw Counterspell
Counter removal
Activate Bird


1) Mana abilities don't use the stack.
2) Cost payments can't be responded to.
3) You retain priority after activating an ability.

As a result, this card is literally impossible to interrupt without split second. If your opponent tries to use removal in response to the combo, you can just combo off again immediately in response.

Rules Advisor

Right...thats what I just highlighted.  So you can combo off again in response to removal.  To what end though, you get one card on top of your library that you want.  After that the bird dies unless you already had a counter/buff in hand or you have a way of drawing a card and a counter/buff in your deck.

Am I missing something?  Everyone is approaching this as if you can change the order of cards in the deck and line up your cards in the order you want to draw them for the rest of the game whether or not the bird survives.  You can't change the order of the cards.  You CAN cycle through and find the most optimum point to leave your deck though, but you still cant change the order.

Ex.  (Forest, Plains, Forest, Island) cant ever become (Plains, Forest, Forest, Island)

They are also acting as if Scry means auto-draw.  If you have no way of drawing cards, then you can only tutor one card a turn, which isnt unheard of power.

I agree that any ability would need to be limited to Sorcery speed to give your opponents a chance to prevent you from drawing the card.
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Tutoring for anything isn't a green/blue thing though. And it's a really fiddly way to do it, as it was when that guy posted that card earlier this week about the scry the number of cards in your library thing.

What colour does ': Search your library for a card, the put that card on top of your library' go on? 'cause that's what this is.
Blue and Green both tutor...a LOT.

Edit: I see what you are saying, Blue lets you tutor for anything though.  Green pretty much only lets you tutor Creatures and Land.

Archmage Ascension
Gifts Ungiven
Any transmute card
Distant Memories

Bifurcate
Birthing Pod
A ton of land tutoring
Defense of the Heart

You're right about the last note though, I really was just trying to be cute wasn't I?  At the end of the day : Scry 1 does the exact same thing AND would be less exploitable, if still as broken as I may never understand it is.

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You could acheive the same effect with Crystal ball, Training Grounds and any of the untap artifact combos, but thats far more work than "pay 6 CMC".  That makes it more fair in the long run.
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Week 3: Transcendence - Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806577/CONTEST__Support_the_Card:_Transcendence?pg=1
Week 4a: Rofellos's Gift - Winner: SuperSpawnWrithe!
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Week 4b: Mortus Strider - Winner: Libe!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29820463/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_Mortus_Strider
Week 5: High Priest of Penance - Winners: Dilleux_Lepaire and Dudibus!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29921687/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_High_Priest_of_Penance?pg=1
"Hold on for a second, I gotta memorize my deck."

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

"Hold on for a second, I gotta memorize my deck."



Lol, right?  I though I was insane when people thought that was a huge deal.  You wuold totally get called on delay of game.
Break the Card: A great contest run by Dilleux_Lepaire in the Cards and Combo's forums! Support the Card: An homage to Break the Card I run on the You Make the Card forums! Support the Card winners:
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Week 1: Savor the Moment - Winner: ConfusedAsUsual!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29788879/CONTEST_Card_Support:_Savor_the_Moment?pg=1
Week 2: Grinning Ignus - Winners: Lobster667 and VRdragoon!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29797229/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_Grinning_Ignus?pg=1
Week 3: Transcendence - Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806577/CONTEST__Support_the_Card:_Transcendence?pg=1
Week 4a: Rofellos's Gift - Winner: SuperSpawnWrithe!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29816423/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_Rofelloss_Gift
Week 4b: Mortus Strider - Winner: Libe!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29820463/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_Mortus_Strider
Week 5: High Priest of Penance - Winners: Dilleux_Lepaire and Dudibus!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29921687/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_High_Priest_of_Penance?pg=1
"Hold on for a second, I gotta memorize my deck."



Lol, right?  I though I was insane when people thought that was a huge deal.  You wuold totally get called on delay of game.


Sensei's Divining Top was banned solely because of time issues it created. This thing with fetchlands would be incredibly obnoxious to face.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Especially with the Shuffle your library every turn clause.  Guess I couldnt donate this idea in time.

Good call everyone...it was a bad design.
Break the Card: A great contest run by Dilleux_Lepaire in the Cards and Combo's forums! Support the Card: An homage to Break the Card I run on the You Make the Card forums! Support the Card winners:
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Week 1: Savor the Moment - Winner: ConfusedAsUsual!
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Week 2: Grinning Ignus - Winners: Lobster667 and VRdragoon!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29797229/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_Grinning_Ignus?pg=1
Week 3: Transcendence - Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806577/CONTEST__Support_the_Card:_Transcendence?pg=1
Week 4a: Rofellos's Gift - Winner: SuperSpawnWrithe!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29816423/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_Rofelloss_Gift
Week 4b: Mortus Strider - Winner: Libe!
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Week 5: High Priest of Penance - Winners: Dilleux_Lepaire and Dudibus!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29921687/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_High_Priest_of_Penance?pg=1
It boils down more to how the card would play out. It's slow and vulnerable, so in many games the impact just won't happen. But in those games where an answer isn't handy, it's a slow, arduous, guaranteed win. People don't like to play against "I win" cards, save perhaps when they do something massively cool. And even those cards aren't so absolute. Tutors cover most of the banned lists in history because that sort of selection is grossly overpowered. It wouldn't take much more than an extra few card draws to make this bird go over-the-top.

Mostly, no one would enjoy playing against it. If that's the case, you have to ask if what your card is doing is worthwhile. Scrying for the rest of the game isn't. 
Yeah, that's what mown got across.  I was only looking at it from the "I played my cool bird" (and a touch of my love for Scrying) angle.  Neglected to see how annoying it would be to play against.
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Week 1: Savor the Moment - Winner: ConfusedAsUsual!
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Week 2: Grinning Ignus - Winners: Lobster667 and VRdragoon!
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Week 3: Transcendence - Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire!
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Week 4a: Rofellos's Gift - Winner: SuperSpawnWrithe!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29816423/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_Rofelloss_Gift
Week 4b: Mortus Strider - Winner: Libe!
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Week 5: High Priest of Penance - Winners: Dilleux_Lepaire and Dudibus!
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http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29921687/CONTEST_Support_the_Card:_High_Priest_of_Penance?pg=1

If people are going to kill it, you scry until you get the best combination of cards coming up next.



Maybe you are right and I don't understand how powerful it is, but how can I accomplish this ^ with Scry 1.  You are simply rotating cards until you get one on top, you have no way of changing the order of those cards.  Thats why I didn't make it Scry 2 or 3, which would allow you to manipulate your entire deck. 



Right, BUT you can look at your entire deck... see where your BEST draws are. And "cycle" through until that point. That way you have solid draws for the next four or five turns, until your win. And that's only if it's about to die.

It's turn four. Someone attempts to destroy your critter. In response you scry your entire deck. You discover that somewhere you have ThundermawThundermaw, Wolfir Silverheart... you go OOOH, I'll skip to that part.

Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
Notable Quotables:
58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
Hey guise I think he gets it.
Well I'm going for "Infinite Useable" not "Infinite Auto-Win".  I originally thought a redundant ability could be useful:

Lose 1 Life
Gain 1 life

That way you could pair it with other cards (I though Scry was nice because it would still require outside sources to be used (until I read your post Atog, I did miss that angle). 

Infinite comboes are so easy to assemble these days I figured putting it on one card would just be a matter of pushing the casting cost up for one card.




Goes infinite life with Rhox Faithmender,Boon Reflection. Also kills everyone but you with Sanguine Bond. Broken.


Of course, the OP is as well. However, something like (for the second ability)


, Pay 1 life, : Scry 2.

I can see that working. You're adding on the limited resource of life. Of course, people can easily make that broken too, but it doesn't self-combo.
56544366 wrote:
If a card works well in Standard, does fun but not totally broken things in Modern, and gets stupid in Legacy, I call that designing for everyone's enjoyment.
Hey guise I think he gets it.



I don't read.
I read until I feel the need to speak.
Then, I speak.
Then, I feel bad once it gets pointed out that my speak was unnecessary.

In short,
I'm sorry.
Official archnemesis of magicpablo666 Host of Reactionary Proud owner of "The Terrible Cube" The altimis Archive I'm baking lands!!! Beginner of GROMA
Notable Quotables:
58060728 wrote:
I carefully examine the walls of the room in a determined effort to not follow the GMs plot.
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