Master of Beasts, a Beast Form Summoner Druid

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"Well met, Summoner!"


The subject of Summoner builds came up in another thread recently and, curious, I went to the Build compendium to find that, lo and behold, there were no Summoner builds whatsoever, for any class!

I set out to rectify that immediately and here is the result.

Build Synopsis: A very tough, very powerful Summoner Druid with 5 or 6 encounters worth of Summons, who actually tends toward Defender (action denial/soak) and Striker (DPR) rather than Controller.

Key Points: Viable at Paragon, comes into its own in Epic, particularly after Level 24. If you like using lots and lots of actions, this here's the build for you.


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Summoner, level 30
Dwarf, Druid, Primal Summoner, Master of Moments
Build: Guardian Druid
Primal Aspect Option: Primal Guardian

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 26, DEX 15, INT 10, WIS 26, CHA 12

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 16, DEX 13, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 10


AC: 46 Fort: 48 Ref: 45 Will: 48
HP: 218 Surges: 17 Surge Value: 62

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +21, Endurance +30, Insight +28, Nature +28, Perception +28

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +15, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +25, Heal +23, History +15, Intimidate +16, Religion +15, Stealth +17, Streetwise +16, Thievery +17

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Dwarf Racial Power: Dwarven Resilience
Druid Feature: Wild Shape
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Druid Attack 1: Savage Rend
Druid Attack 1: Chill Wind
Druid Attack 1: Grasping Claws
Druid Utility 2: Barkskin
Druid Attack 3: Tundra Wind
Druid Utility 6: Blood Frenzy Howl
Druid Utility 10: Animal Clan
Primal Summoner Attack 11: Redfang Prophecy
Primal Summoner Utility 12: Tightened Control
Druid Utility 16: Howl of the Wild
Druid Attack 17: Inexorable Smash
Druid Attack 19: Summon Swamp Behemoth
Primal Summoner Attack 20: Summon Primal Slayer
Druid Utility 22: Primal Beast Apotheosis
Druid Attack 23: Strength of the Hunt
Druid Attack 25: Summon Proud Mastodon
Master of Moments Utility 26: Freeze Time
Druid Attack 27: Polar Blast
Druid Attack 29: Summon Elder Pack Wolf

FEATS
Staff Expertise
Level 1: Ritual Caster
Level 2: Hide Armor Expertise
Level 4: Tome Expertise
Level 10: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)
Level 11: Superior Will
Level 12: Improved Defenses
Level 14: Dwarven Durability
Level 18: Commanding Form
Level 20: Demanding Talent
Level 21: Primal Summoning Expertise
Level 21: Shield Proficiency: Light
Level 22: Primal Resurgence
Level 22: Toughness
Level 23: Shield Mastery
Level 24: Superior Initiative
Level 26: Epic Reflexes
Level 28: Second Skin
Level 30: Epic Will

ITEMS
Ritual Book
Animal Messenger
Create Campsite
Barkskin Nightmare Hide Armor +6 x1
Angelsteel Shield Light Shield (epic tier) x1
Aversion Accurate staff +6 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier) x1
Boots of Quickness (epic tier) x1
Gauntlets of Brutality x1
Ring of Free Time x1
Ring of Giants x1
Belt of Vim (epic tier) x1
Brooch of Vitality +6 x1
Siberys Shard of the Mage (epic tier)
====== End ======



All I wanted to do, really, was create a very cool Summoner Druid. I believe I did that and then some. I made a very cool Summoner Druid who is -incredibly- hard to kill and who does "Broken Striker" (as defined by the DPR Kings thread) damage.

In that other thread, someone said "Leave the striking to the strikers." Well, that's not really my thing. And with that said, here was my rebuttal (moved here for relevance):

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Ahoy there be MATHS ahead, turn back now if ye have no stomach fer it.


I'm going to defend my build here a little bit. Level 30 Primal Summoner using Summon Elder Pack Wolf after 1 round of setup.


Standard and Opportunity are +37 vs 42 (Level+12) Reflex, Hit: 2d10+32 (Avg: 43); Crit: 6d8+64 (Avg: 85).


11 Attack Nova Round: 1 Opportunity + 1 Free (Commanding Form) + 1 Free (Primal Summoner Action) + 1 Minor (Ring of Free Time) + 1 Minor (Bountiful Time) + 1 Minor + 1 Minor (Maximized Time) + 1 Move->Minor + 1 Move->Minor (Maximized Time) + 1 Standard->Minor + 1 Standard->Minor (Maximized Time).


Damage = [((15/20)*43*11)+((1/20)*85*11)] = 401.5/(30*8+24) = Just about 1.5 even KPR for a Nova round.


But wait, there's more! This character can do 7 of those attacks on subsequent rounds until the Wolf or the Druid are killed (yeah... good luck with that).


So, Damage = [((15/20)*43*7)+((1/20)*85*7)] = 255.5/(30*8+24) = 0.96, So around 1 KPR EVERY round thereafter.


In the interest of completion, here's the setup round, in which the Wolf only makes 4 Attacks.


Damage = [((15/20)*43*4)+((1/20)*85*4)] = 146/(30*8+24) = 0.55 KPR


(146+401.5+255*3)/5 = 262 Avg. DPR; 262/(30*8+24) = 0.994 AVGKPR. The mean is probably very close to that, since the subsequent round damage is at least 0.96 KPR.


This does not even take into account the fact that the Druid has Encounter Powers they can use with the Standard action/s of their turn to do as much as, if not more than, the Wolf. There are also at least 3 Encounter powers the druid can use to increase all of the summon's attacks by as much as 16 each.


Then, finally, what Wizard/Artificer/Psion/whatever can boast these defensive stats: AC: 48; Fort: 50; Ref: 47; Will: 50 HP: 218; Bloodied (Summon HP): 109; Surge Value: 62; Surges: 17.

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I hope some like the build, I know I had a lot of fun making it. If I messed something up in the build please let me know, I've already caught myself trying to stack feat bonuses and item bonuses twice each! 

 The wizard always wins!

Commanding Form and Summoning Expertise don't stack.
I hope you're not including Aversion Staff or the Armor's DMI in your defenses.
I'm missing 2 damage off your numbers 8wis+6enh+6item+5shard+5gauntlets (which don't apply until after the 1st hit) = 30
You're presuming the enemy will stand up, when they have no reason to, so I see 5 attacks/round (Standard, Move, Minor, Minor, Minor) after a Nova of 9.
How do you manage a 6th summon per day?
Doing all your math with a level 29 Daily would be dishonest, but you apparently chose the worst possible summon to try showing off with, possibly because you thought you could include the OA? Regardless, Storm Behemoth and Writhing Henge both post higher KPR numbers thanks to the DPRKings absurd burst multiplier.
You could be a Revenant and pick up another 3 Minor Actions at the cost of 2 feats and a couple items to enable sub-0 fighting.

Blank criticism (ie. no specifics because it's late and I'm tired)
I am, as always, unimpressed by sub 1KPR Epic builds
Level+20 as your best defenses is fairly trivially what Wizards can get.
Requiring Melee with the inability to fly/teleport makes any claim in late paragon through epic worthless. Enemies are at best going to terrain you out of 2 actions, and at worst be completely inaccessible.
You're Dazed.
And lastly, anything at level 30 that isn't remotely on par with Planeshaper's "remove 1 target from combat per minor action" is not worth discussing at level 30.

There's a reason there's no Summoner builds. They're terrible and entirely reliant on the rest of your party to be terrible too, so you can have combats last into the 4th round and beyond. What you've posted is basically the same output as an Invoker optimizing Hand of Radiance with Mark of Storm and Polearm Momentum, except he can do it at range, can be enabled for MBA or RBA's by a leader, and still has Encounter and Daily "Daze/Stun/Dominate the board"
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Most melee can't fly though, nor teleport reliably (unless we're talking ultra high level boots of teleportation shenanigans). That isn't really a knock against the build, just an extra indication of why the carpet of flying/flying broomstick are such steals if get gold value's worth of items instead of just an item assignment.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
RAW I see no reason why Commanding Form and PSE don't stack, PSE makes Standard Attacks -> Minor attacks, CF lets you use a Minor command as a Free action. Sounds pretty clear to me.

I was including the Staff in the defenses, because I was doing everything in my post based on one target. Whoops. You'll always have it for any creatures adjacent to your Summon though. Due to the fact that the late game ones are all Large or bigger, have a lot of movement, and some of them slide with every attack, I'm sure you won't have to worry about that with brutes/soldiers. Cloak of Distortion might be a good pick for the build since artillery and controllers won't be affected by your Aversion Staff anyway.

You're missing 2 damage because I didn't have it, it was late and I was adding those last 2 sources as +6 for some reason.

Of course I'm presuming the enemy is standing up, in just about all of the builds that have off-turn attacks they assume being able to trigger one if it's easy. Like you said, the Wolf's bonus attack is actually the worst, but I really used to love Trip so it's the one I used.

6th summon is assuming an item to regain it, I didn't put one in but in the last couple posts when I mentioned Wizards I was always assuming 2 items to regain dailies. I should have put one on the Druid's build, I was already 1 or 2 Uncommons above a new character, might as well have done one more.

How is using the 29 Daily dishonest exactly? Everyone uses their strongest combo when doing the damage breakdowns, without fail. As you pointed out, Elder Pack Wolf isn't even the strongest. Unless it's dishonest in some other way, I don't understand.

I'm not sure what I did that makes you think I'm "showing off" every time I post a damage breakdown, other than that maybe in the other couple threads it was a tad off-topic. But in this one it's hardly showing off, I was posting my KPR numbers based on the DPR Kings thread to show that this build belongs in a certain grouping of character builds. Nothing more. This is totally biased but I actually think it's in the best category of character builds, just within reach of "broken character" (1KPR), while nowhere near "stupid broken cheesy bullshit" (5-15 KPR, which some of those builds have).

I don't know the damage calc. for AoEs from the DPR Kings thread, also many of the AoE summons are unfriendly, so I didn't use one.

Revenants are banned in most formats and tables (including mine), for good reason.

Addressing your extremely unconstructive and superiorly biased criticism:

Could you be more subjective, most DMs would hate a single 1 KPR character in a game, if you're implying no party works without Strikers in a higher range than that, then you're crazy. A 1 KPR character kills a Solo in just a tad more time than a Baseline character kills a Standard monster. No one, except you, really cares what you're impressed by.

Wow, a Wizard can get a high Reflex. Whoop-de-do. I'd like to see one who also has an incredibly high score in all those Defenses that actually matter. Sorry this is bias on my part, Reflex is usually just damage so I feel like it's the weakest NAD, whereas Will and Fortitude are the strongest because they usually prevent you from being dazed/stunned/petrified/removed from play. And now actually looking through a bunch of the DPR King builds... who exactly has these "trivially" high defenses? Most of them have a dump NAD in the low to mid 30s, with their highest unconditional defense being something around 38-42. Most of them don't need it, they might as well kill 3d4 monsters per round and not bother rolling, just saying on principle about the defenses.

Your single target control is going to prevent this on many foes. Some of the summons do fly. And as a Master of Moments the Druid actually does have a teleport speed of 5. I'm assuming you were talking about the Summoned creature's movement weaknesses.

Have to hit me first, and if I went first (I'm going to go before any damn controller/artillery that might daze me) then they can probably expect to be at -least- prone, and even if they do manage to hit me, then Superior Will gives a 50/50 at SonT. Certainly not optimized to prevent/get rid of those annoying conditions, but not terrible either.

There you go being all subjective again. All the players at my table and at my local FLGS -hate- removes enemy from play powers. That's why I didn't take the 2 that this build has fairly easy access to. Besides, regardless of what the role is on the Character Sheet, this character isn't a controller anymore. I leave that to, as you so CONSTANTLY point out, more suitable wearers of that particular hat, this character is a Striker on a Controller chassis, with the defenses, melee threat, and occasional action denial capability of an off-defender.

If you have something constructive to say, like if there's an RC reason why CF+PSE doesn't work, better choices for feats/powers/items etc. and the reasoning behind them, and so on and so forth, then I'm all ears. But just saying "you're wrong/stupid/terrible" isn't helpful, not to mention probably against the rules.

Apparently you've forgotten that this is the "Character Optimization" forums, if you don't have anything constructive to say about the SPECIFIC character I posted, then just don't post.
Just so you know man, DPR Kings really isn't worth a damn. Like...at all. There's a reason Erachima so fervently hates 'The Monk That Will Not Be Named'. The damage numbers on the DPR kings thread are all 'wrong' in how useful they are in all but the broken cases or the single target ones, and of the latter most of them sacrifice some very basic needs for their 'awesome' damage (which is not, in fact, particularly awesome because it is so very easy to push damage up to 'dead solo' values on a good striker, at which point you honestly don't care about doing more damage anymore, because it means you can shut down any threat no matter how large it is), and would not stand up to a proper 'CharOp's Best' runthrough of a hard encounter lineup, or in fact even a normal set of tough encounters. They're not what you want to use as inspiration for a 'strategy's gold standard' build.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Just so you know man, DPR Kings really isn't worth a damn. Like...at all. There's a reason Erachima so fervently hates 'The Monk That Will Not Be Named'. The damage numbers on the DPR kings thread are all 'wrong' in how useful they are in all but the broken cases or the single target ones, and of the latter most of them sacrifice some very basic needs for their 'awesome' damage (which is not, in fact, particularly awesome because it is so very easy to push damage up to 'dead solo' values on a good striker, at which point you honestly don't care about doing more damage anymore, because it means you can shut down any threat no matter how large it is), and would not stand up to a proper 'CharOp's Best' runthrough of a hard encounter lineup, or in fact even a normal set of tough encounters. They're not what you want to use as inspiration for a 'strategy's gold standard' build.

Oh, this wasn't inspired at all by DPR Kings, I was merely using their baselines for "normal" and "optimized" characters for comparison, because math is easy for comparing things.

Just like I said at the top, this character was made because I wanted to make an awesome Summoning Druid. I already feel like I did that, posting the build is more about just getting a Summoner build up, because I've never seen one.
Revenants are banned in most formats and tables (including mine), for good reason.

No. A huge portion of 4e is played in LFR, where the DM cannot ban things. So "most" of 4e is played by the rules and content is not banned because of ignorance.

AC: 45 Fort: 51 Reflex: 50 Will: 49

^Standard Wizard Summoner Defenses from two years ago. Needs updating. An Elven Chain Shirt, for instance. So 48 AC. Couple of other things, very possible to get 50+ on everything for a Wizard now.

Your build has so many issues and your attitude is even worse. If you come into the optimization forum you it is very reasonable for people to point out your character isn't optimized  especially if it is because it is breaking the rules.
Revenants are banned in most formats and tables (including mine), for good reason.

No. A huge portion of 4e is played in LFR, where the DM cannot ban things. So "most" of 4e is played by the rules and content is not banned because of ignorance.



+1 I have yet to play at a table where revenants are banned, LFR or not. OP should have said "my DM and I ban revenants" rather than making a sweeping generalization that most people play with such a silly ban.

Revenants are not overpowered, anyway. One particular item that revenants take advantage of is debatably overpowered, and even then it's not like an (almost) unkillable revenant upsets party balance. Monsters will just target the other PCs.
CF and PSE don't stack because CF says the action must normally require a Minor. Normally the commands you are trying to give are Standards. They are minors for you, because of PSE, but normally, they aren't.

Also PSE means you never get Instinctives, in addition to various rules issues it brings up with the Summoning Rules. Feat is really over rated.

You don't get the benefits of a shield in Beast Form, so you've ditched Wild Shape entirely. Also Dwarves can get Light Shield Prof for free, not sure why you're wasting a feat on it.
No. A huge portion of 4e is played in LFR, where the DM cannot ban things. So "most" of 4e is played by the rules and content is not banned because of ignorance.

AC: 45 Fort: 51 Reflex: 50 Will: 49

^Standard Wizard Summoner Defenses from two years ago. Needs updating. An Elven Chain Shirt, for instance. So 48 AC. Couple of other things, very possible to get 50+ on everything for a Wizard now.

Your build has so many issues and your attitude is even worse. If you come into the optimization forum you it is very reasonable for people to point out your character isn't optimized  especially if it is because it is breaking the rules.



I was under the impression, due to a guide I saw on the Collection list, that Rev's were banned in LFR. Apparently I was mistaken, sorry.

Any chance you could show me the build you're talking about? I've never seen or heard of it in months browsing these forums and you seem to have pulled it up very quickly.

If the build has issues, feel free to contribute solutions. I'm more than happy to listen to useful information. 

You're right about the CF and PSE not stacking, I went back and had to read the summoning rules again twice just to wrap my head around the distinction.

Speaking of, other than that one, there are no Summoning Rules that PSE is breaking.

One of the older Druid guides was conflicting with the Wild Shape power, I had to read the Wild Shape power carefully, you're absolutely correct. You don't gain the benefits of a Shield while in Beast Form. However I'll be changing the build to reflect what you've told me about Commanding Form, since you were right there as well.

How exactly do you get Light Shield Prof. for free as a Dwarf? With this new info, that'd be pretty great since it'd mean being able to grab Shield Proficiency: Heavy instead. Have to swap the Str and Dex, but the Heavy Shield more than makes up for it.

As far as my "attitude," according to the Build Compilation rules, defending a build is not only allowed, but encouraged. I'm happy to take constructive criticism like yours, I'm actually already trying to fix the character in CB, but I do take offense at just being told something I'm doing is stupid, with no evidence, or when simply compared to God Tier builds etc.

So, to summarize:
Whoops on the revenant thing, but I like Dwarves anyway, and Revs are banned at my table and FLGS because they are just far and above better than any other race, so I'd personally never get to play it and therefore have no desire to build it.
Now given a few important wording distinctions to look at, I see how CF plus PSE doesn't work.
I'd really like to see what tricks to use to get a Wizard with defensive stats like those.
Speaking of defenses, how exactly do Dwarves get Shield Proficiency: Light for free? Background or something I'm guessing?
Not getting instinctives is not really an issue with the Summons I picked, and unless the Summoning Rules conflict with something in the RC I don't see how what I'm doing with PSE violates them.
Finally thanks for pointing that out, there was a conflict between a guide and a power description, should have really read the power description better. I suppose a shield bonus in wild shape doesn't make a whole lot of rational sense anyway.
LSM. Everyone knows that shades are the master races (especially for vampires) followed closely by tieflings and dragonborn. Genasi just suck.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
This conversation might help you learn stuff community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


Ye olde Summoner from Alcestis in post 9 community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Zathis actually answered you in post 15 community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
LSM. Everyone knows that shades are the master races (especially for vampires) followed closely by tieflings and dragonborn. Genasi just suck.

Shade Vampire.  Why didn't I think of that?

Because when you tell a summon to use its actions as a Minor (its actions specifically, not commanding it to move/run/fly/walk/etc as a minor, which is different), you can only do so once per round. And that isn't an RC rule, that is "Always been that way" rule. PSE changes all the standards to minors, which is decent in that you can now give it commands once per round (you are effectively gaining a minor action attack), except the Instinctive actions, properly utilized, would have given you that anyway. Without wasting a minor on it. So the feat is really over rated (it is only good in the context of people who think you can use all your minors to attack constantly, except you can't). So you are doing.. what, ~7 attacks?  You get one in reality. That is what you're doing that doesn't work.

Check the Wizard handbook. It is my build and, frankly, it was a sample build I did for Naus. I didn't even optimize it completely, so in addition to being out of date and better/stronger options now being available, it wasn't top tier two years ago and still handily beats a Druid summoner on all fronts.

Dwarves have different racial traits they can choose from. One is free light shield prof.
Because when you tell a summon to use its actions as a Minor (its actions specifically, not commanding it to move/run/fly/walk/etc as a minor, which is different), you can only do so once per round. And that isn't an RC rule, that is "Always been that way" rule. PSE changes all the standards to minors, which is decent in that you can now give it commands once per round (you are effectively gaining a minor action attack), except the Instinctive actions, properly utilized, would have given you that anyway. Without wasting a minor on it. So the feat is really over rated (it is only good in the context of people who think you can use all your minors to attack constantly, except you can't). So you are doing.. what, ~7 attacks?  You get one in reality. That is what you're doing that doesn't work.

Check the Wizard handbook. It is my build and, frankly, it was a sample build I did for Naus. I didn't even optimize it completely, so in addition to being out of date and better/stronger options now being available, it wasn't top tier two years ago and still handily beats a Druid summoner on all fronts.

Dwarves have different racial traits they can choose from. One is free light shield prof.



Not disagreeing with you Alcestis, but wouldn't it be good to grab that feat and avoid the intrinsic nature draw backs ?  Like for example the summon succubus dazes the wizard when it acts on it's own accord.  Wouldn't that make it worth while for some summons ?
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

As has been noted elsewhere PSE only applies to primal summoning powers.
Actually, PSE does get around the 1 minor attack command per turn rule, because of poor wording as the rule prohibits multiple "minor action commands" while with PSE you're giving a "standard action command" as a minor action. Rules lawyery.

ETV though, I could see a DM not allowing that, but allowing CF+PSE to work together.

I personally don't find Instinctive Actions with melee range to be as useful as claimed here due to often needing to move your summon or shoehorning yourself into just being the Cluster-bitch for the party (wait, I just said that like that's a bad thing)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
That interpretation is broken, though. And "If a command is a minor action, it can be given only once per round" is pretty reasonably interpreted that if you gave the command as a minor, it is one/round.
I thought "That interpretation is broken" was the bread and butter of the CharOp forums Tongue Out It was the whole impetus behind me creating the build. Obviously if your DM wouldn't allow it then play a Sorcerer, if you like multiple implement attacks per round, or a Wizard if you want just be awesome in general. But yeah, the whole point of the build is based on the premise that Summoned Creature Standard Action powers get around the Minor Action limitation. Sure, some DMs might HR it away, but that's based on the temperament of the DM and the rest of the table. I know a DM that HRd it so you cannot gain damage roll bonuses from the same attack more than once per use of the power, but people still play Rangers and such at his table though, so I think the Summoner still has merit.

Honestly I don't see why this combination is any worse than the Rebreather combo, in terms of making multiple minor action attacks. Other than that the Summoner is significantly weaker damage-wise. Though to be honest I've not seen much in the way of opinions on the rebreather combo other than that it's so silly powerful.
Honestly I don't see why this combination is any worse than the Rebreather combo, in terms of making multiple minor action attacks. Other than that the Summoner is significantly weaker damage-wise. Though to be honest I've not seen much in the way of opinions on the rebreather combo other than that it's so silly powerful.

I think the general opinion is "don't play it in a real game." Stuff that is too effective just becomes unfun in a real game. Either the DM goes to very specific lengths to shut you down, or you just mow through everything while the rest of the party gradually loses interest in the game.

Personally I'm not really a fan of summoner builds, mostly because they lack the devastating control of alternative controller dailies and have to be super cheesy to compete with strikers. It still seems like there should be a couple summoner builds posted in the stcky though, if for no other reason than the fact that it's something we can point to and say "You shouldn't play a summoner because this is the best a summoner can do, compared to X."
If you don't see why this is worse than a Rebreather 
1. Run numbers. Sorc powers > your powers
2. Play it, its way more finicky, and therefore worse. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I thought "That interpretation is broken" was the bread and butter of the CharOp forums  It was the whole impetus behind me creating the build. Obviously if your DM wouldn't allow it then play a Sorcerer, if you like multiple implement attacks per round, or a Wizard if you want just be awesome in general. But yeah, the whole point of the build is based on the premise that Summoned Creature Standard Action powers get around the Minor Action limitation. Sure, some DMs might HR it away, but that's based on the temperament of the DM and the rest of the table. I know a DM that HRd it so you cannot gain damage roll bonuses from the same attack more than once per use of the power, but people still play Rangers and such at his table though, so I think the Summoner still has merit.

Honestly I don't see why this combination is any worse than the Rebreather combo, in terms of making multiple minor action attacks. Other than that the Summoner is significantly weaker damage-wise. Though to be honest I've not seen much in the way of opinions on the rebreather combo other than that it's so silly powerful.

Oh, then this is a simple misunderstanding to clear up: CharOp is about getting the most out of the system without cheating. You're cheating. Clear enough now? Rebreathers work by RAW, this doesn't. What goes on at your table is irrelevant, only the actual rules matter.
Oh, then this is a simple misunderstanding to clear up: CharOp is about getting the most out of the system without cheating. You're cheating.



Hardly, see Zathris' post to see how it works.

Clear enough now? Rebreathers work by RAW, this doesn't.



As a matter of fact, it does.

Here is the rule in question: "The summoning power determines any special commands you can give the summoned creature and gives an action type for each command. If a special command is a minor action, you can give that command only once during each of your turns."

Once again, for emphasis: There is no limit on the number of Standard Action special commands you can give your Summoned Creature. Primal Summoning Expertise lets YOU spend a Minor Action to give the Summoned Creature one of its Standard Action special commands. You're not giving it a Minor Action command, you're giving it a Standard Action command by spending a Minor Action.

I'll admit, it's somewhat cheesy, the intent is obviously to prevent Wizards from doing this exact sort of thing with their Summoned Creatures who have Minor Action attacks.

But we're not talking about intent, we're talking about RAW. I seriously doubt WotC -intended- the Rebreather feedback loop. I doubt they -intended- for people to be able to stack damage roll mods such that anyone who can make enough attack rolls can kill Orcus in one turn. But RAW, they can.

Anywhere I was wrong, I happily admitted it, such as with Commanding Form. Although interesting note: due to the wording, a Wizard with Wild Shape could use Commanding Form to give a Summoned creature a Minor Action special command as a Free Action (though only once a round!).

But the RAW is fairly clear on this point.
"That interpretation is broken" is not synonymous with "Against the rules"
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
If you don't see why this is worse than a Rebreather 
1. Run numbers. Sorc powers > your powers
2. Play it, its way more finicky, and therefore worse. 



1. I admitted this in my post, your point?
2. But that's wrong... 6 fairly standard single to a couple targets attacks is much LESS finicky than a minimum of 2 attacks EVERY time, one for enemy one for ally you're using to bounce the damage back to yourself, with a much larger area of effect, and likely a hell of a lot more riders.

In my opinion this still makes the rebreather better, just because it does more damage and, often, more utility. But if you're going to go by "finicky" then the Summoner is at least half as finicky. More depending on exactly how nuts the particular flavor of Rebreather's dragon breath is.
It is broken and it also happens to be wrong. Better? The Summoning Rules say if you give a special command as a minor, you can only do so one/round.
If you don't see why this is worse than a Rebreather 
1. Run numbers. Sorc powers > your powers
2. Play it, its way more finicky, and therefore worse. 



1. I admitted this in my post, your point?
2. But that's wrong... 6 fairly standard single to a couple targets attacks is much LESS finicky than a minimum of 2 attacks EVERY time, one for enemy one for ally you're using to bounce the damage back to yourself, with a much larger area of effect, and likely a hell of a lot more riders.

In my opinion this still makes the rebreather better, just because it does more damage and, often, more utility. But if you're going to go by "finicky" then the Summoner is at least half as finicky. More depending on exactly how nuts the particular flavor of Rebreather's dragon breath is.



You don't use Dbreath 6 times, please don't comment on a build you have no idea about. Your desire to prove your build is great is nice, but unfounded and you're grasping at straws.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
He was saying the summon attacks 6 times (standard probability tends to even out with more attacks made), which is a lot less finicky than relying on being able to constantly hit an enemy and an ally every Minor action, while managing your damage output (NO! DONT MAGIC WEAPON ME!) so you can still recharge, but don't die.

I mean, it's ignoring how finicky the repositioning of summons is, and having an extra creature that you have to keep track of status, hp, and bonuses on (Ok, I have magic weapon, but my summon doesn't, is it worth the standard action to have it attack, or is my attack better because of the buff?)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I didn't say use Dragon Breath 6 times. And I was still using the Wolf's opportunity attack as a usual attack for the Summoner, whoops. So, 5 attacks. Anyway, the Rebreather can very easily use the Dragonbreath -many- times. It's a Minor Action attack and therefore subject to all the Minor Action shenanigans I've been using for the Summoner Druid.

It is broken and it also happens to be wrong. Better? The Summoning Rules say if you give a special command as a minor, you can only do so one/round.



But that's not what it says Alcestis. It says you may only make a Minor Action special command 1/turn. On a normal round the Summoner is using 6 5 (forgot to stop using the Wolf's OA as one of them) Minor Actions to make 5 Standard Action special commands.
Except you're not. You are using Minors to command the creature, and the summoning rules says you can only give Minor action commands one/round. RC 120.
Primal Summoning Expertise reads: Use a minor action to give a standard action command to a creatuer you summoned with a primal power. Emphasis mine.  

RC 120 says: If a special command is a minor action, you can give that command only once during your turn.

RC 120 also defines the types of commands a summoner issues as "The summoning power determines the special commands that the summoned creature can receive and gives an action type for each command." Again emphasis mine. 


Elder Pack Wolf doesn't have any minor action special commands, but it does have a standard.  While cheesy, it doesn't sound at all like it is a stretch of RAW to say that PSE will allow you to use all of your minor actions, to issue standard action commands to the wolf.

Edited for clarity. 
You are giving it a Command as a Minor. That Command is not a default summonining Command, but a Command built-in to the power. Cheat if you like, just know you're cheating.
Kids, this is what happens when you try to optimize summoners.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Kids, this is what happens when you try to optimize summoners.



Do these two words fit into the same sentence?

My stupid blog on love.

My stupid blog on religion and life.

I wanna be the nicest guy on all of the CharOp forums.

Yeah, with TRY or ATTEMPT being important. Sides, you can optimize just about anything. You can optimize a Vampire for godsakes. It just wont be good.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Yeah, with TRY or ATTEMPT being important. Sides, you can optimize just about anything. You can optimize a Vampire for godsakes. It just wont be good.



*shivers* 

My stupid blog on love.

My stupid blog on religion and life.

I wanna be the nicest guy on all of the CharOp forums.

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