Unstoppable Rogue

Here is an interesting build of the Rogue that is pretty much unstoppable.

First you build the Rogue toward the highest AC possible. Then you take the Slippery Target feature. Then every round you run up to two or more monsters take your action to dodge which puts your AC into the 22-24 range which is pretty much untouchable. Then you have as much attack power as whatever monster you are fighting...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol



Yes because before 4E there was no math in D&D and the best strategy was a flowery description of what you did because there were no mechanics only words...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol



Yes because before 4E there was no math in D&D and the best strategy was a flowery description of what you did because there were no mechanics only words...Smile



No - because in a table top game there is a DM who can adapt to off the wall techniques like that as opposed to an AI in a video game which is open to exploits like that.

The DM would just have one of them (or maybe both) stop attacking you while you were dodging.

Carl
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol



Yes because before 4E there was no math in D&D and the best strategy was a flowery description of what you did because there were no mechanics only words...Smile



No - because in a table top game there is a DM who can adapt to off the wall techniques like that as opposed to an AI in a video game which is open to exploits like that.

The DM would just have one of them (or maybe both) stop attacking you while you were dodging.

Carl



If a single target attacks him he has a chance to use it against his enemy, and how exactly does standing there doing nothing help anyone. It simply delays combat long enough for the Wizard, Cleric, and Fighter to finish up...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol



Yes because before 4E there was no math in D&D and the best strategy was a flowery description of what you did because there were no mechanics only words...Smile



No - because in a table top game there is a DM who can adapt to off the wall techniques like that as opposed to an AI in a video game which is open to exploits like that.

The DM would just have one of them (or maybe both) stop attacking you while you were dodging.

Carl



If a single target attacks him he has a chance to use it against his enemy, and how exactly does standing there doing nothing help anyone. It simply delays combat long enough for the Wizard, Cleric, and Fighter to finish up...Smile




Exactly.  How does the rogue just standing there doing nothing help anyone?  Because the monster is off attacking the wizard, cleric or fighter - as long as the rogue wants to just doge, why should anything attack him?

Carl
Huh... rogue tank? Give him combat reflexes so when they move away to fight the rest of the party roll some mdd.
Although, I'd make a small wager that this combo won't work in a few packets due to some unforeseen change. I like the idea of a really elusive and nimble rogue who dances between foes and then strikes hard.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
Seems similar to certain unhittable/undamageagle Assassin builds in 4E. Unfortunately, they don't really accomplish anything useful for the rest of the party.

congratulations, you found a silly, situationally dependent trick to make everyone at the table roll their eyes.
Here is an interesting build of the Rogue that is pretty much unstoppable.

First you build the Rogue toward the highest AC possible. Then you take the Slippery Target feature. Then every round you run up to two or more monsters take your action to dodge which puts your AC into the 22-24 range which is pretty much untouchable. Then you have as much attack power as whatever monster you are fighting...


Until a creature rolls a crit.  That will stop the dancing rogue with the d6 hit dice.

Monsters also receive multiple attacks.  I believe slippery target is only usable once a round, am I right?

What about 3 monsters? 

What if one monster tries to grab the rogue so the other can pummel him to death?  Not so useful then.
That's not much of an exploit.  Once a round, you can use your reaction to get one foe to attack a different for in reach.

This requires two enemies who are within reach of you and each other.  It's a good exploit for once a round, but after the first use on a group of enemies, the enemies should address this, either by spreading out, focusing on other party members, leaving the rogue for last, or using ranged attacks on the rogue.

Also, that seems to be exactly what "slippery target" is useful for.  It's not an "exploit" .  He's just describing exactly what the power describes the appropriate tactic to be.
Here is an interesting build of the Rogue that is pretty much unstoppable.

First you build the Rogue toward the highest AC possible. Then you take the Slippery Target feature. Then every round you run up to two or more monsters take your action to dodge which puts your AC into the 22-24 range which is pretty much untouchable. Then you have as much attack power as whatever monster you are fighting...



Hahaha! nice

...works fine until you face only one monster 
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
Here is an interesting build of the Rogue that is pretty much unstoppable.

First you build the Rogue toward the highest AC possible. Then you take the Slippery Target feature. Then every round you run up to two or more monsters take your action to dodge which puts your AC into the 22-24 range which is pretty much untouchable. Then you have as much attack power as whatever monster you are fighting...



Hahaha! nice

...works fine until you face only one monster 



Since PCs are also creatures then that is a good way for the rogue to get more share of the treasure..

Unless the Rogue gets a party member to swing at him/her and then on a miss, they can target the monster

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

Exactly.  How does the rogue just standing there doing nothing help anyone?  Because the monster is off attacking the wizard, cleric or fighter - as long as the rogue wants to just doge, why should anything attack him?



Yeah pretty much.

Chances are the mosters will just ignore the rogue or one monster will engage him as the other monsters attack his companions who are acting much more threatening.

Bascially instead of making an attack wiht his action, the rogue is opting to use the monsters attack in his place, which may or may not be better than his own. and to do that it requires:

-The monster misses (very likely)
-There are at least two monsters fighting him (probably not if he's on full defense)

The only real time this tactic might be broken is if a rogue just stands in a doorway and goes on guard. Of course if your only function is as a doorstop whiel your companions do DPS, I'm not even certain if a fighter with dodge + Parry wouldn't be doing a better job at that.

there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.



I... You either have never played d&d with a group long enough to accidently discover these things, or you have never played with a group that's bored enough to go looking for them.

Either way, EVERY edition of d&d has had broken combinations of abilities/skills/feats/magic items. No edition of d&d has been perfect, especially when it comes to mechanics interacting with each other. Only a fool would think otherwise.
composed attack and darkness. A fighter can easily kill a dragon with those combo. 
That build doesn't work because the rogue literally is no threat.

Now to make the idea work:

Feats: Charge, two weapon defense.
Skill tricks: tumble

those are the only real requirements

basic premise:  via dex mod, leather and two weapon defense get to an AC of 17.  Use tumble, and charge in to provoke attacks from the enemies, redirect an attack (you can take reactions on your own turn), make an attack, for full damage, then tumble away.  You are threatening in your capabilities so they will make the attacks against you.

for real fun get the feats: Charge, Two Weapon Defense, Combat expertise, Ripost.

Now when you tumble past those two guys (as part of a charge) you make one attack the other, then you attack that guy too as he also presumably missed, then you make your own attack as part of the charge action.  I say also include the unassuming threat skill trick for those times your tumble attacks won't work and hug the fighter's hip.  Even better because of ripost and combat expertise unassuming threat can be used to make an attack against your opponent.  You can jack your AC as a reaction with unassuming threat then use the second reaction to make an attack against that guy you just forced to miss you.  Superior footwork and quick reflexes seem apropriate for this build as well.

Not angry the build exists.  In fact I hope this build is available in future packets.  This seems like exaclty the way a rogue should be fighting.  I only have a problem with the rogue's damage capability.  However I know that is changing so this build is awesome.
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol



there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.

2e. Skills. And. Powers.

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.




Yes tactical round by round combat wasn't the focus of older editions.

I've played older editions with groups that would spend an entire session just planning their attack and gathering information.   But now, with the more modern systems that doesn't happen anymore.  The characters are always fully prepared for the encounter, expect N encounters per day, and know that the encounters are scripted for them in particular.   In these new games, I find that everything that happens outside the encounter is just an excuse for the encounter.   


 The characters are always fully prepared for the encounter, expect N encounters per day, and know that the encounters are scripted for them in particular.   In these new games, I find that everything that happens outside the encounter is just an excuse for the encounter.   



this almost sounds like you are describing adult movies
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
 The characters are always fully prepared for the encounter, expect N encounters per day, and know that the encounters are scripted for them in particular.   In these new games, I find that everything that happens outside the encounter is just an excuse for the encounter.   



this almost sounds like you are describing adult movies

That's unstoppable rouge.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

But now, with the more modern systems that doesn't happen anymore.  The characters are always fully prepared for the encounter, expect N encounters per day, and know that the encounters are scripted for them in particular.



Sounds like a problem with your DM and players. I have never had this issue. Unless we're currently sleeping at an inn or campsite, I have no idea when our next rest is going to be.
Here is an interesting build of the Rogue that is pretty much unstoppable.

First you build the Rogue toward the highest AC possible. Then you take the Slippery Target feature. Then every round you run up to two or more monsters take your action to dodge which puts your AC into the 22-24 range which is pretty much untouchable. Then you have as much attack power as whatever monster you are fighting...


Until a creature rolls a crit.  That will stop the dancing rogue with the d6 hit dice.

Monsters also receive multiple attacks.  I believe slippery target is only usable once a round, am I right?

What about 3 monsters? 

What if one monster tries to grab the rogue so the other can pummel him to death?  Not so useful then.



Yeah the Rogue only gets one attack with it, however his effective AC is 22-24 for the entire round meaning its unlikely that any creature but the highest has any chance of hitting him. Though critical hits will deal maximum damage and if its a weapon it gets the weapon damage on top, but the fact that the Rogue won't get hit except once every 2-3 combats (assumes 4 attackers per round and 4 rounds of combat), I don't see a problem. The Rogue if normally attacking will only get 1 attack per round anyway unless they get all the feats for two-weapon Fighting. Throw in those feats and tricks that allow the Rogue to grant disadvantage to attackers and you end up with a nearly impossible to hit Rogue...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
well it isen't so powerfull the enemies just decide not to hit you, killing the rest of the party first.
then gang up on you in a larger group as you only have one reaction each round. 
there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.




Yes tactical round by round combat wasn't the focus of older editions.

I've played older editions with groups that would spend an entire session just planning their attack and gathering information.   But now, with the more modern systems that doesn't happen anymore.  The characters are always fully prepared for the encounter, expect N encounters per day, and know that the encounters are scripted for them in particular.   In these new games, I find that everything that happens outside the encounter is just an excuse for the encounter.   



I'm sorry you had such a bad DM when you tried the modern games, perhaps you will find a better one next time...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
well it isen't so powerfull the enemies just decide not to hit you, killing the rest of the party first.
then gang up on you in a larger group as you only have one reaction each round. 



Yeah, you also move up to 2-3 enemies and then use the dodge action so you get your attack whether they attack you or on the last one as it moves away. At worst you cost the enemy their action as they use disengage to move away...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Here is an interesting build of the Rogue that is pretty much unstoppable.

First you build the Rogue toward the highest AC possible. Then you take the Slippery Target feature. Then every round you run up to two or more monsters take your action to dodge which puts your AC into the 22-24 range which is pretty much untouchable. Then you have as much attack power as whatever monster you are fighting...Smile



What happens when it runs into a big solo?
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol



Yes because before 4E there was no math in D&D/quote]


That is silly, inflammatory, and logically incorrect.
Distract grants disadvantage however that also takes an action.  I think the rogue would be better off Dodging.  The Tricks usually take up a reaction or an action.  For instance:

Distracting as an action then Slippery target as a reaction.  The good thing about Distract is that the hostile does not have to target the rogue for it to be in effect.  The bad thing is that it does not work on some baddies and requires a CHA vs WIS contest.

But I think the Slippery Target/Dodge exercise would get you limited mileage.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.




Yes tactical round by round combat wasn't the focus of older editions.

I've played older editions with groups that would spend an entire session just planning their attack and gathering information.   But now, with the more modern systems that doesn't happen anymore.  The characters are always fully prepared for the encounter, expect N encounters per day, and know that the encounters are scripted for them in particular.   In these new games, I find that everything that happens outside the encounter is just an excuse for the encounter.   



I'm sorry you had such a bad DM when you tried the modern games, perhaps you will find a better one next time...

That has been my experience with Living Forgotten Realms. Many of the DMs at the local game store just skip the roleplaying parts unless it gives xp. If you don't get a table with mostly new players and a new DM you end up with pretty much that exact experience.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts

My blog of random stuff 

Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
well it isen't so powerfull the enemies just decide not to hit you, killing the rest of the party first.
then gang up on you in a larger group as you only have one reaction each round. 

Yeah, you also move up to 2-3 enemies and then use the dodge action so you get your attack whether they attack you or on the last one as it moves away. At worst you cost the enemy their action as they use disengage to move away...

Why would the last one move away?  It can just attack you.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Here is an interesting build of the Rogue that is pretty much unstoppable.

First you build the Rogue toward the highest AC possible. Then you take the Slippery Target feature. Then every round you run up to two or more monsters take your action to dodge which puts your AC into the 22-24 range which is pretty much untouchable. Then you have as much attack power as whatever monster you are fighting...Smile



22-24 is good but not untouchable.  Many creatures are +7 to hit or better.  Some creatures might find a way to get advantage as well.
 
Many attacks also don't require an attack on AC.  Gaze attacks, breath attacks, rays, cones, spells, etc.

How about the best armor in the game: The Robe of the Archmagi.

Assassin - Use magic device or high elf, 20 Dexterity, Robe of the Arch Magi, Magic Shield, Shield of Faith cast on him from Cleric.
AC 23    

He doesn't even need to dance around like a jester.  
there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.




Yes tactical round by round combat wasn't the focus of older editions.

I've played older editions with groups that would spend an entire session just planning their attack and gathering information.   But now, with the more modern systems that doesn't happen anymore.  The characters are always fully prepared for the encounter, expect N encounters per day, and know that the encounters are scripted for them in particular.   In these new games, I find that everything that happens outside the encounter is just an excuse for the encounter.   



I'm sorry you had such a bad DM when you tried the modern games, perhaps you will find a better one next time...Smile



He probably just played LFR - with their goal of cramming a set quantity of combat XP into each four hour slot they frequently just advised DMs to call the first couple of encounters early so they could teleport the party to the next encounter.  Not only was anything out of combat just setup for the next combat, there was typically no out of combat, period (with any 'development' restricted to DM narrative to justify 'how did you get here'.


Disclaimer:  Based on the two adventures I ran at GenCon last year (and statements by a friend (one of the very very few) who still plays LFR (our gaming store stopped running them over a year ago due to lack of interest - down from two nights a week at its peak) it sounds like they got much better.  But probably too little too late.

Personally -- I think the LFR did immeasurable harm to the 4e brand.  We were on the brink of quitting 4E forever until I actually sat down and figured out why we were starting to hate it -and realized it wasn't the game system,  - it was the adventures and we dumped LFR and started our own campaign.  I don't know how many other groups felt the same way and switched to Pathfinder rather than work through to the actual source of their discontent.



Carl
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol



Yes because before 4E there was no math in D&D




That is silly, inflammatory, and logically incorrect.



As opposed to what I originally quoted? Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
sounds like a combo from a video and not a dnd game i would play lol



there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.

2e. Skills. And. Powers.




that was a book filled with optional rules i never even used and most didnt either as by that time in 2nd edition they had their own set of acceptable rules to use in their campaign
there was no high armor class combos in any older edition if you can find it then that will prove me wrong. strategy was part of the game but it wasnt about abusing the rules to get an invincible character it was using the situation the characters were in to their advantage that was the diffrence.




Yes tactical round by round combat wasn't the focus of older editions.

I've played older editions with groups that would spend an entire session just planning their attack and gathering information.   But now, with the more modern systems that doesn't happen anymore.  The characters are always fully prepared for the encounter, expect N encounters per day, and know that the encounters are scripted for them in particular.   In these new games, I find that everything that happens outside the encounter is just an excuse for the encounter.   



I'm sorry you had such a bad DM when you tried the modern games, perhaps you will find a better one next time...Smile



He probably just played LFR - with their goal of cramming a set quantity of combat XP into each four hour slot they frequently just advised DMs to call the first couple of encounters early so they could teleport the party to the next encounter.  Not only was anything out of combat just setup for the next combat, there was typically no out of combat, period (with any 'development' restricted to DM narrative to justify 'how did you get here'.


Disclaimer:  Based on the two adventures I ran at GenCon last year (and statements by a friend (one of the very very few) who still plays LFR (our gaming store stopped running them over a year ago due to lack of interest - down from two nights a week at its peak) it sounds like they got much better.  But probably too little too late.

Personally -- I think the LFR did immeasurable harm to the 4e brand.  We were on the brink of quitting 4E forever until I actually sat down and figured out why we were starting to hate it -and realized it wasn't the game system,  - it was the adventures and we dumped LFR and started our own campaign.  I don't know how many other groups felt the same way and switched to Pathfinder rather than work through to the actual source of their discontent.




Phew, lucky me then. When we first started with 4e we got the feeling that it could be pretty easy to do "just interesting encounters" with this system although the DMG encourages a vide variety of playstyles. The problem with 4e in encounter-heavy campaigns is combat length. If you plan 4 encounters a session with 4h play time you'll get 4 encounter straight unless you are battling only minions.

So, we who are tending towards roleplay-heavy campaigns realized that more than 2 complex and challenging encounters per session (we like it hard because we like playing highly tactical) on average (note that we currently play 6-7 hours per session) would cost us too much time of roleplaying. But we also get xp for good character development and story progress, nothing that organized play can offer.

For the rogue build... yes, it ight seem silly for those who have intelligent or experienced DMs. But there will be groups who... play on a much higher munchkin level, interpret the rules as strict set in stone complex. So, maybe the designers will want to make sure that the possibilities of loopholes and exploits are as small as possible. If there is a possible way for a rogue to be nearly un-hittable while still doing much damage, then this option is broken and needs to be fixed before the game goes live. that's it.

He probably just played LFR - with their goal of cramming a set quantity of combat XP into each four hour slot they frequently just advised DMs to call the first couple of encounters early so they could teleport the party to the next encounter.  Not only was anything out of combat just setup for the next combat, there was typically no out of combat, period (with any 'development' restricted to DM narrative to justify 'how did you get here'.


Sadly this is how most of my 4E home games have went too. It feels like the entire session is spent in combat with pretty much nothing devoted to the story. It's not quite as bad as teleporting people to the next combat, but in many cases it might as well be, since your next combat begins the moment you say "we head to the next room."

Just the sheer amount of time it takes to resolve a combat in 4E subsconsciously puts all the emphasis on combat, simply because even if the adventure doesn't have many combats, you're still going to spend a large percentage of the adventure in combat.

Now, the tactical combat in 4E is actually really good. It's pretty deep and it offers people a lot of options. The only real problem is that if you didn't want a combat game, it's just not the edition for you, because inevitably all 4E I've played has combat-focus. It's really something you have to actively try to avoid, just because of the length of the combats.


He probably just played LFR - with their goal of cramming a set quantity of combat XP into each four hour slot they frequently just advised DMs to call the first couple of encounters early so they could teleport the party to the next encounter.  Not only was anything out of combat just setup for the next combat, there was typically no out of combat, period (with any 'development' restricted to DM narrative to justify 'how did you get here'.


Sadly this is how most of my 4E home games have went too. It feels like the entire session is spent in combat with pretty much nothing devoted to the story. It's not quite as bad as teleporting people to the next combat, but in many cases it might as well be, since your next combat begins the moment you say "we head to the next room."

Just the sheer amount of time it takes to resolve a combat in 4E subsconsciously puts all the emphasis on combat, simply because even if the adventure doesn't have many combats, you're still going to spend a large percentage of the adventure in combat.

Now, the tactical combat in 4E is actually really good. It's pretty deep and it offers people a lot of options. The only real problem is that if you didn't want a combat game, it's just not the edition for you, because inevitably all 4E I've played has combat-focus. It's really something you have to actively try to avoid, just because of the length of the combats.




At least in a home game if you are aware of the problem, you can try to fix it.


On a related note - I was very happy with the last Encounters season.  They made a conscious effort to design them more 'old school' (or more 'new new, as in 5E, school) with multiple short encounters per session with an added focus on roleplaying.  You can design adventures that aren't all combat, all the time in 4E.  You just have to ignore everything LFR did for the first several years and alter your own designs to cut down on the number of immediately consecutive encounters.  Don't put a combat encounter 'in the next room'.  Put something else there.

Carl
At least in a home game if you are aware of the problem, you can try to fix it.


Well that's the problem in that it's very hard to fix. The issue isn't just that adventures are designed with too many combats, because that's fixable. The problem is that combats simply take too long to run in 4E. So even if there's only a single combat, you're still going to spend 1-2 hours on it. And that's a good chunk of your session. Compared to prior editions where you can resolve the combat in 10-20 minutes, that's a big deal.

And ultimately that's the issue that got one of  my groups to abandon 4E.
At least in a home game if you are aware of the problem, you can try to fix it.


Well that's the problem in that it's very hard to fix. The issue isn't just that adventures are designed with too many combats, because that's fixable. The problem is that combats simply take too long to run in 4E. So even if there's only a single combat, you're still going to spend 1-2 hours on it. And that's a good chunk of your session. Compared to prior editions where you can resolve the combat in 10-20 minutes, that's a big deal.

And ultimately that's the issue that got one of  my groups to abandon 4E.



What kinda of fights take 1-2 hours!  Most of my 4e fights (6 PCs + 1 NPC) take about 30min. or less.  Now I have had 1-2hr fights, but that is not the norm.