How to End the Edition Wars?

Seriously? WOTC needs to provide nominal support to ALL editions and allow them to be licensed. All markets are niche markets, and every edition of D&D as well as games like Boot Hill and Top Secret are always going to have fans who refuse to move on to newer products. Why not make things those people will actually BUY? Yes, the margin would be low, but Low beats No when it comes to profit. I know people who still use the original little brown books and have no interest in new editions but they would be willing to buy pdfs of adventures that they could use for their old school campaigns. WOTC is making ZERO money off people like them. But even one product a year and some quick conversion notes in other products could change that...
I'm not sure WotC has the rights to do that.  I was under the impression they have to get/buy permission to reprint or use pre-3E materials.  I've heard about their desire to reprint 1st Edition for years, and they finally managed to do it in 2012.  There was to my knowledge no reprinting of 2nd Edition.

I'd love to see it, to be honest.  I'm just not sure it is possible.
Because that's smart long term thinking for a company interested more in survival of the brand than short term profit.
the best way to prevent edition wars is for people to realize that its just a game and not to be inflamed or try to inflame others because of preferances.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Just supporting 2E and 3E would greatly expand the number of options for fans. Supporting non-fantasy games like Boot Hill would open whole new markets. It would be good for WOTC, good for players, and good for the hobby as a whole...
Close the forum.

The only way to end the edition wars at this point is either pick one edition (probably "next") for all time or to remove the greatest enabling device. So...ditch the forum or stick with Next for 10-15 years and let everyone who is unhappy filter off and start playing other games.
Here is reality, read and understand: Rangers aren't dull or underpowered, in any edition. Fighters aren't dull or underpowered, in any edition. Casters aren't "god mode" or overpowered, in any edition. The tarrasque isn't broken. And you aren't voicing your opinion by claiming otherwise, you're just being a pain. Now, stop complaining.
Color me flattered.

LIFE CYCLE OF A RULES THREAD

Show
Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

THey are now supporting older editions by putting a ton of them on RPGNow.  But I think it unwise for them to spend designer time trying to support multiple editions simultaneously.  Designing requires specialization.  The designer needs to commit to the edition they support.  I think it's great that you can get prior edition materials for download again.  But I don't for a second think that Wizards putting out more material for those editions will do anything to lessen the edition wars.
D&D is a war game. Players start wars and arguements for the fun of it.

My D&D5E JavaScript Roll Tracker http://dnd5.weebly.com/

the best way to prevent edition wars is for people to realize that its just a game and not to be inflamed or try to inflame others because of preferances.



The best way to prevent edition wars is to simply not participate in them.


Carl
D&D is a war game. Players start wars and arguements for the fun of it.



Every once and a while I fail my WIS save.

I like the idea of keeping one version for 15 plus years. 

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

i think that the re-release of the old modules and books proved that there is a market that needs some attention. in that vein i think that they should make hard covered editions of all the core books the players handbook dms guide and monster manual from 1st second and 3/3.5. the rest we can get in electronic format. the best way to end the edition wars is for wotc to drop the rules of 5th edition and just make edition neutral world content and modules so people can use the core rule books from their favorite edition and wotc still gets their payday
i think that the re-release of the old modules and books proved that there is a market that needs some attention. in that vein i think that they should make hard covered editions of all the core books the players handbook dms guide and monster manual from 1st second and 3/3.5. the rest we can get in electronic format. the best way to end the edition wars is for wotc to drop the rules of 5th edition and just make edition neutral world content and modules so people can use the core rule books from their favorite edition and wotc still gets their payday




So - exactly what they are doing.

Besides - it's too late now.  There are already parts of 5E I like better than the last two editions.  If they quit now, I'll just have to go true old-school and just write my own game.

But I am curious where 'the money ' is these days. Pre-3.x, the conventional wisdom was the money was in the rule books - and the modules and setting books were not as profitable (which was part of how the OGL came about in the first place). Now, I'm not so sure. Maybe there is a market for system neutral stuff. But I still think there is more money to be made with rule books than fluff books.

Carl
You can't.  Because it's human nature to band together with like minded people where you can point and laugh at others for not being 'like you'.  Edition Wars are here to stay because they are each their own little camps against the 'heathens' that don't think like you.
You can't.  Because it's human nature to band together with like minded people where you can point and laugh at others for not being 'like you'.  Edition Wars are here to stay because they are each their own little camps against the 'heathens' that don't think like you.

I really dislike pointing at anybody and marginalizing them as "The Other".  I've often advocated for things that I dislike in an attempt to make the best D&D for all of us for precisely that reason.
Some humans are able to check their ego at the door.
You can't.  Because it's human nature to band together with like minded people where you can point and laugh at others for not being 'like you'.  Edition Wars are here to stay because they are each their own little camps against the 'heathens' that don't think like you.



Actually,  the edition wars are here to stay because it's impossible to reconcile 4th and pre-4th.  You can sit 1st,  2nd,  and 3rd edition people down at a table and they'll be able to come up with an agreement on how to play,  because they're largely the same game with some extra systems added in.  You can't sit a 4th edition player down with any of them and end up with an agreement,  because it's so fundamentally different.

The edition wars exist not because people are fundamentally evil,  but because there's only room for one of the two systems and people are in competition for which one is "D&D".  It's the exact same backlash you get with video games that fundamentally change a game.  Go over to the Bethesda forums and post "Fallout 3 is not a Fallout game" and at the same time post on RPGCodex "Fallout 3 is a Fallout game",  you'll see the *exact* same behavior with every instance of the word "D&D" replaced with "Fallout".

That's the end result of a fundamental change in an established and beloved game,  you irreconcibly divide your market. 
I guess it all depends on what your definition of a "war" is.  I see a lot of stuff on these boards that gets labelled as "edition warring" when really it's just people saying what they like and what they don't like.  And other times, yeah, it's silly and overheated and becomes ... an argument (gasp).  So what?

I think edition warring is an overblown issue, and doesn't really need ending or solving.  It's just people on the Internet arguing over something they're passionate about.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

That's the end result of a fundamental change in an established and beloved game,  you irreconcibly divide your market. 

Agreed.  And yet WoTC could still profit by selling materials for all editions, whether that be new materials or simply reprints of old stuff.  As the OP? said - low profit is better than no profit.

Trying to end an edition war as a path to more profit is just ridiculous.  It's way, way, harder to control peoples' preferences than it is to just sell people what they want, especially when the product is already developed and if you still have the rights to it.


OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

That's the end result of a fundamental change in an established and beloved game,  you irreconcibly divide your market. 

Agreed.  And yet WoTC could still profit by selling materials for all editions, whether that be new materials or simply reprints of old stuff.  As the OP? said - low profit is better than no profit.

Trying to end an edition war as a path to more profit is just ridiculous.  It's way, way, harder to control peoples' preferences than it is to just sell people what they want, especially when the product is already developed and if you still have the rights to it.





Not 'could still profit'  - Is profiting. Or did you miss the last half-dozen hardcover releases by WoTc or the opening of the online store selling PDFs of the old adventures.


As for the editon wars - the goal is to keep the disagreements focused on actual game rules and features - and not on meaningless invective. 

I preferred [Edition A] to [Edition B] because of [Rules system] is useful conversation.

[Edition A] sucked and [Edition B] rocks and anyone who disagrees is an [insult] is not useful conversation.

The goal ought to be to encourage the former and eliminate the latter.

Carl
Not 'could still profit'  - Is profiting. Or did you miss the last half-dozen hardcover releases by WoTc or the opening of the online store selling PDFs of the old adventures.

Oh yeah, I couldn't miss it.  Now, problem for me is, they have nothing up YET that I want and/or don't already have.  But I'm the exception ... I dumped a ton of money into TSR and WoTC over many years.  It's good that they have this stuff up for the younger folks or folks who missed out on it/couldn't afford it the first time around ... I just hope they can sell enough.

This feeds into my hypothesis that DnD Next is simply a move to bring in new players only ... the rest of us get pdf reprints.  Not that that's necessarily a totally bad thing.  But what I really was hoping for was either DnD 4.5 or something radically new and different.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

The best way to end edition wars is the same way as you end the immortal problem.



There can be only ONE!
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
The best way to end edition wars is the same way as you end the immortal problem.



There can be only ONE!

Yeah, but that won't work unless you go door to door and burn everyone's LBBs.  But wait, maybe that's not such a bad idea, but we should do it with the 3e books.  Any chance someone can build a time machine so I can go back and stop Pathfinder?

I kid!  I kid! 

Also, I propose this thread be derailed into an edition war. 

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

Also, I propose this thread be derailed into an edition war. 



Butt-kicking! For goodness!Tongue Out
You can't.  Because it's human nature to band together with like minded people where you can point and laugh at others for not being 'like you'.  Edition Wars are here to stay because they are each their own little camps against the 'heathens' that don't think like you.

I really dislike pointing at anybody and marginalizing them as "The Other".  I've often advocated for things that I dislike in an attempt to make the best D&D for all of us for precisely that reason.
Some humans are able to check their ego at the door.


A) It was a generalization, there are plenty of people out there that actually enjoy multiple editions (I think.  I hope.  I'm kidding, I don't care which edition is better, because they all have flaws, some more than others, but meh, all flawed.)  B) I was not talking about you, but rather human nature in particular.  We are a tribal species, we will gather in groups, and we have 'the Other'.  Nations do it, States/Provinces, Counties, Cities, Families, Friends, hell, Gaming Groups!  We band together with like minded people and we prefer to hang out with them.  Unfortunately not everyone is as open minded as you, Chak, and some people will form an 'Us vs. Them' mentality.  Won't be the first time, won't be the last.

Until the Universe explodes.
You can sit 1st,  2nd,  and 3rd edition people down at a table and they'll be able to come up with an agreement on how to play,  because they're largely the same game with some extra systems added in.  You can't sit a 4th edition player down with any of them and end up with an agreement,  because it's so fundamentally different.



And it is statements like this that show you exactly why there are edition wars.

"4e and 4e players are bad! All other D&D is good!".

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

You can sit 1st,  2nd,  and 3rd edition people down at a table and they'll be able to come up with an agreement on how to play,  because they're largely the same game with some extra systems added in.  You can't sit a 4th edition player down with any of them and end up with an agreement,  because it's so fundamentally different.



And it is statements like this that show you exactly why there are edition wars.

"4e and 4e players are bad! All other D&D is good!".



Either that - or it is because of people who read "4E is different" and interpret that as somehow saying "4E is bad" - and then take offense.

Carl
The internet is filled with narcissists, trolls, and the at times oversensitive.  Forums will always be a battlefield, even with regulation and modding.  It's as simple as many people don't like opinions or take their own opinions too far.  So is the downside of sentience.  (IN THE GRIMDARK FUTURE OF D&D, THERE IS ONLY WAR!)

An undead spectre occasionally returning to remind the fandom of its grim existence.

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!
Here are some things I believe must be done to end the edition wars.
1. Open you mind to the understanding that others have different preferences than your own and that does not make them a less valid gamer or fan than your demographic.
2. Welcome multi edition input for Next in the realization that every edition has something great to add to D&D. I.E. your way is not the best way.
3. Understand the failure of written speech to express ones personal tone, emotional state, or attitude. Do not jump to the worst possible conclusion when disagreements happen.
4.Come to terms with the fact that D&D means different things to different people.
5. Remeber that you and your group whether old school or new school didn't start the war, you don't have a stake in the war, and you can't win the war by taking up arms. Every time you do you look like a Jack ass and people laugh at you.
6. Inclusion goes a long way to finding a middle ground with people you don't understand. Choose to have an inclusive view rather than an exclusive one. After all hate often stems from fear. People fear what they do not understand.
7. No one wants to take your favorite edition away, they just don't want to lose what they love either. That said be willing to try a new idea or an old one to garner experience and an enlightened point of view. I read more inaccurate information about the prior and current editions of D&D on these threads than I have ever encountered in my life. educate yourself. When you make blanket statememnts you look ignorant. Friggin know it all, check your facts before you talk or write down what's on your mind. 
 
Remeber that:          "Edition wars kill players and that kills D&D"

                            Brightmantle, First knight of the brave order of W.T.F.
Either that - or it is because of people who read "4E is different" and interpret that as somehow saying "4E is bad" - and then take offense.

Carl

Or maybe saying that 4e is totally different than 2e or 3e - because those two systems are totally compatible and not much changed between them - shows an obvious bias against 4e.

I'm normally pretty open minded, but saying "4e is the one that stands alone" is biased. There is really no two ways about that.

Is that bias legitimate? Well, if you think that 4e is much more different than 3e, than 3e is different from 2e...

Supporting an edition you like does not make you an edition warrior. Demanding that everybody else support your edition makes you an edition warrior.

Why do I like 13th Age? Because I like D&D: http://magbonch.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/first-impressions-13th-age/

AzoriusGuildmage- "I think that you simply spent so long playing it, especially in your formative years with the hobby, that you've long since rationalized or houseruled away its oddities, and set it in your mind as the standard for what is and isn't reasonable in an rpg."

 
I think edition warring is an overblown issue, and doesn't really need ending or solving.  It's just people on the Internet arguing over something they're passionate about.



If people didnt get passionate about this... it would mean it wasnt important to us and as realistic as that ought to be 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

You can't.  Because it's human nature to band together with like minded people where you can point and laugh at others for not being 'like you'.  Edition Wars are here to stay because they are each their own little camps against the 'heathens' that don't think like you.



Actually,  the edition wars are here to stay because it's impossible to reconcile 4th and pre-4th.


The edition wars predate 4e.  The term was coined when 3e was released and between the OSR and 3e, the gulf was wide.  The internet simply wasn't as well-inhabited at the time.  Heck, I remember watching the .5 edition wars between people who swore by 3.0 and those who moved on (or began with) 3.5.

Change breeds controversy.  
You can't.  Because it's human nature to band together with like minded people where you can point and laugh at others for not being 'like you'.  Edition Wars are here to stay because they are each their own little camps against the 'heathens' that don't think like you.



Actually,  the edition wars are here to stay because it's impossible to reconcile 4th and pre-4th.


The edition wars predate 4e.  The term was coined when 3e was released and between the OSR and 3e, the gulf was wide.  The internet simply wasn't as well-inhabited at the time.  Heck, I remember watching the .5 edition wars between people who swore by 3.0 and those who moved on (or began with) 3.5.

Change breeds controversy.  

Yes, the anti-3rd edition faction was pretty violent. Nothing new except for the target.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Either that - or it is because of people who read "4E is different" and interpret that as somehow saying "4E is bad" - and then take offense.

Carl

Or maybe saying that 4e is totally different than 2e or 3e - because those two systems are totally compatible and not much changed between them - shows an obvious bias against 4e.

I'm normally pretty open minded, but saying "4e is the one that stands alone" is biased. There is really no two ways about that.

Is that bias legitimate? Well, if you think that 4e is much more different than 3e, than 3e is different from 2e...





Vancian magic: 1, 2, 3
powers 4
rolled HD at level up 1, 2, 3
daily, encounter, at-will powers 4
progression to level 20 1, 2, 3
dragonborns 4
elves split in 2 races 4
halflings 4 feet high 4
saving throw progression based on level 1, 2, 3
classic saving throws turned into static defenses 4


Saying 4th edition is much more different from the first 3 editions is not being biased, it is simple observation.

granted, there is also a lot of differences between 2e and 3e, but mostly mathematics and aestethics (Reversing TAC0 to BaB etc...)

4e IS fundamentaly different. It is the first edition where you could not really translate a chracter from an earlier edition (where are my spell per days? what powers do I get?)

Saying that "4e is different" is no more biased than saying "that guy is tall" is prejudiced
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
You can't.  Because it's human nature to band together with like minded people where you can point and laugh at others for not being 'like you'.  Edition Wars are here to stay because they are each their own little camps against the 'heathens' that don't think like you.



Actually,  the edition wars are here to stay because it's impossible to reconcile 4th and pre-4th.


The edition wars predate 4e.  The term was coined when 3e was released and between the OSR and 3e, the gulf was wide.  The internet simply wasn't as well-inhabited at the time.  Heck, I remember watching the .5 edition wars between people who swore by 3.0 and those who moved on (or began with) 3.5.

Change breeds controversy.  



I remember when AD&D 1st came out

Our university gaming group met to decide whether to switch to AD&D or go with D&D.  After lots of arguing, we took a vote and the group split right down the middle -exactly a 50/50 split.  So the 'president' of the group just said 'we are playing AD&D and that is it'.  After which there were to gaming groups - one playing AD&D and one playing D&D.

Editions wars have always been there.

All that said - 4e is a lot further from AD&D than 3x is.  If your benchmark is 3.x, then the three families of D&D (OD&D/AD&D -- 3.x D&D -- 4E D&D) have more in common with each other.  If your benchmark is AD&D then you see a lot in common with 3.x, but 4E is a very different breed altogether.  At least, so it appears to me.

Carl



Vancian magic: 1, 2, 3
powers 4
rolled HD at level up 1, 2, 3
daily, encounter, at-will powers 4
progression to level 20 1, 2, 3
dragonborns 4
elves split in 2 races 4
halflings 4 feet high 4
saving throw progression based on level 1, 2, 3
classic saving throws turned into static defenses 4


Saying 4th edition is much more different from the first 3 editions is not being biased, it is simple observation.

granted, there is also a lot of differences between 2e and 3e, but mostly mathematics and aestethics (Reversing TAC0 to BaB etc...)

4e IS fundamentaly different. It is the first edition where you could not really translate a chracter from an earlier edition (where are my spell per days? what powers do I get?)

Saying that "4e is different" is no more biased than saying "that guy is tall" is prejudiced



Ignoring the fundamental changes between 1/2e and 3e while ignoring the similarities between 4e and previous editions shows your bias.

Did 4e make changes - yes
Did3e make a lot of changes also- also yes (1 area in particular was throwing any semblance of ballance out the window- while 1 and 2e did have balance issues they paled in comparison to 3.x)




Vancian magic: 1, 2, 3
powers 4
rolled HD at level up 1, 2, 3
daily, encounter, at-will powers 4
progression to level 20 1, 2, 3
dragonborns 4
elves split in 2 races 4
halflings 4 feet high 4
saving throw progression based on level 1, 2, 3
classic saving throws turned into static defenses 4

While I agree to some point, the list above contains some really odd points of discontent.
> Rolled HD? Never did that ever and I started gaming in 2e.

> Level progression? Who cares that epic level is option (earlier editions) or part of the core (4e)? The difference in this regard between 4 and 3 is just as big as the difference in equal level progression between the classes (3e and 4e) and unequal progression (1e and 2e). Not to mention the huge differences in multi-classing between 1e/2e and 3e and 4e ;)

> New races? Or subraces (the difference between a grey elf and a wood elf was just as big as between an elf and an eladrin)? halflings being 3'6" or "4'?  I am sorry, but those differences are just as big as between playing FR and Eberrron or your own setting. I really cannot see how that would generate edition waring...

Leaving only two points on that list that make any sense: Vanacian Magic/Powers and saving throws/static defenses ;)

Mind you, you are also missing some stuff like skills (more or less non existent pre 3e), feats (non existent pre 3e), healing, monster design (which btw differs significantly between 2e and 3e as well), treasure rules (which is split between 1e/2e and 3e/4e) and I am sure there are a couple more.

Saying 4th edition is much more different from the first 3 editions is not being biased, it is simple observation.

granted, there is also a lot of differences between 2e and 3e, but mostly mathematics and aestethics (Reversing TAC0 to BaB etc...)

4e IS fundamentaly different. It is the first edition where you could not really translate a chracter from an earlier edition (where are my spell per days? what powers do I get?)

Saying that "4e is different" is no more biased than saying "that guy is tall" is prejudiced

The bias is in you saying that 2e and 3e are much more easily combined then 1/2/3 with 4. In my experience that is simply not true either. Fact is, I could not run 2e adventures in 3e without some serious work, nor can I run 3e in 4e without the same amount of work.

There always have been edition wars. It is just that internet is a lot bigger now, making the world a lot smaller. There is also a third party still publishing for the old edition, which is also keeping the fires burning ;)
Vancian magic: 1, 2, 3
powers 4
rolled HD at level up 1, 2, 3
daily, encounter, at-will powers 4
progression to level 20 1, 2, 3
dragonborns 4
elves split in 2 races 4
halflings 4 feet high 4
saving throw progression based on level 1, 2, 3
classic saving throws turned into static defenses 4


Saying 4th edition is much more different from the first 3 editions is not being biased, it is simple observation.

granted, there is also a lot of differences between 2e and 3e, but mostly mathematics and aestethics (Reversing TAC0 to BaB etc...)

4e IS fundamentaly different. It is the first edition where you could not really translate a chracter from an earlier edition (where are my spell per days? what powers do I get?)

Saying that "4e is different" is no more biased than saying "that guy is tall" is prejudiced



Ooh, let me play.

Iterative attacks for warriors only, 1, 2
Iterative attacks for everyone, 3
Magic that doesn't take place on your turn giving time for people to interrupt, 1, 2
Magic that takes place on your turn, that you can make a skill check to not be interrupted, and that no-one can move to interrupt you 3
Saving throws that depend entirely on the target 1, 2
Saving throws that depend on the creator of the effect 3
Skills for Thieves, NWPs for everyone else 1, 2
Skills for everyone 3
Magic item creation is difficult to impossible 1, 2
Magic item creation is available to 1st level characters 3
Magic users get no bonus spells for high stats 1, 2
Wizards get bonus spells for high stats 3 
Limit on the number of spells MUs can learn 1, 2
No limit on the number of spells MUs can learn 3
Cleric spell levels go up to 7 1, 2
Cleric spell levels go up to 9, 3
No feats 1, 2
Feats 3

I'm sure others can add more.  

These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead. Playing: Legendof Five Rings, The One Ring, Fate Core. Planning: Lords in the Eastern Marches, Runequest in Glorantha. 

Vancian magic: 1, 2, 3
powers 4
rolled HD at level up 1, 2, 3
daily, encounter, at-will powers 4
progression to level 20 1, 2, 3
dragonborns 4
elves split in 2 races 4
halflings 4 feet high 4
saving throw progression based on level 1, 2, 3
classic saving throws turned into static defenses 4


Saying 4th edition is much more different from the first 3 editions is not being biased, it is simple observation.

granted, there is also a lot of differences between 2e and 3e, but mostly mathematics and aestethics (Reversing TAC0 to BaB etc...)

4e IS fundamentaly different. It is the first edition where you could not really translate a chracter from an earlier edition (where are my spell per days? what powers do I get?)

Saying that "4e is different" is no more biased than saying "that guy is tall" is prejudiced



Ooh, let me play.

Iterative attacks for warriors only, 1, 2
Iterative attacks for everyone, 3
Magic that doesn't take place on your turn giving time for people to interrupt, 1, 2
Magic that takes place on your turn, that you can make a skill check to not be interrupted, and that no-one can move to interrupt you 3
Saving throws that depend entirely on the target 1, 2
Saving throws that depend on the creator of the effect 3
Skills for Thieves, NWPs for everyone else 1, 2
Skills for everyone 3
Magic item creation is difficult to impossible 1, 2
Magic item creation is available to 1st level characters 3
Magic users get no bonus spells for high stats 1, 2
Wizards get bonus spells for high stats 3 
Limit on the number of spells MUs can learn 1, 2
No limit on the number of spells MUs can learn 3
Cleric spell levels go up to 7 1, 2
Cleric spell levels go up to 9, 3
No feats 1, 2
Feats 3

I'm sure others can add more.  




Would you mind doing the same for 4e ? or do you have a day job that would not allow for such a lenghty endeavor ?
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
Would you mind doing the same for 4e ? or do you have a day job that would not allow for such a lenghty endeavor ?



I'm not saying 4th edition isn't different. I'm saying 3rd edition is as or more different from what came before it.

These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead. Playing: Legendof Five Rings, The One Ring, Fate Core. Planning: Lords in the Eastern Marches, Runequest in Glorantha. 

 While I agree to some point, the list above contains some really odd points of discontent.
> Rolled HD? Never did that ever and I started gaming in 2e.

Just because you house-rule something in your game doesn't make my point any less valid


Mind you, you are also missing some stuff like skills (more or less non existent pre 3e) non-weapon proficiencies

feats (non existent pre 3e), weapon proficiencies (skills and powers)
healing, (healing is new to 3e???)
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
Would you mind doing the same for 4e ? or do you have a day job that would not allow for such a lenghty endeavor ?



I'm not saying 4th edition isn't different. I'm saying 3rd edition is as or more different from what came before it.



You are comparing 4e to 3e and 3e to 1/2e

that's hardly fair

compare 4e to 1/2e and we'll see what edition is most different from the 3 others
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
...at least we seem to all agree that 1e and 2e are pretty close to one another ? Wink 
Try radiance RPG. A complete D20 game that supports fantasy and steampunk. Download the FREE PDF here: http://www.radiancerpg.com
Sign In to post comments