Elves and Elven Exotic Weapons

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Hey guys, is there anything in the 3.5 books about elves treating exotic "Elven" weapons as martial weapons?

Thanks.

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Hey guys, is there anything in the 3.5 books about elves treating exotic "Elven" weapons as martial weapons?

Thanks.


Not directly. If a weapon has a racial compatibility effect, it'll be noted in the weapon's description or occasionally in a sidebar. The "elven" weapons I think you're mentioning (the lightblade and the thinblade) do not have such text.

There are some exceptions to that rule. For instance, Valenar elves can treat the Valenar double scimitar as a martial weapon, while Drow get a different list of proficiencies including the hand crossbow. These exceptions are clearly noted in the race description.

If the race and the weapon both lack such text, you need the exotic weapon proficiency feat to use them. And chances are, the weapon is not worth your time.

Seriously, what weapons are you looking to use this way? I'm positive we can get you a better option.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

We houserule that all races get their racial weapons for free...

As far as the thinblade and the lightblade go, they aren't too impressive given the cost that one normally has to pay.
I was throwing around the idea of an Elven courtblade and improved critical, but this would be a back-up weapon so I don't think it would be worth two feats (three if I get power attack) since I'm mostly focused on archery for my primary.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/4.jpg)

We houserule that all races get their racial weapons for free...



It's kind of weird that gnomes and dwarves both have the weapon familiarity clause and the only racial exotic weapons in the PH. (Not counting the Orcish axe)  Makes me wonder if its an oversight or something.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/4.jpg)

I was throwing around the idea of an Elven courtblade and improved critical, but this would be a back-up weapon so I don't think it would be worth two feats (three if I get power attack) since I'm mostly focused on archery for my primary.


Backup weapon in a totally different style than your primary (i.e. no feat overlap), and you're thinking of spending feats? Definitely not a good call.

The only big advantage the courtblade has over a falchion is that it can be finessed while using a 2-handed Power Attack. The slightly improved base damage is meaningless, particularly compared to Power Attack, and if you're not getting a serious Strength bonus or Power Attack, then the improved critical hit range is almost meaningless anyway (as you won't really multiply a lot of extra damage).

If you're insisting on having a passable melee backup weapon, your best choice is probably looking into Elvencraft bows (same book, a few pages later). Specifically, an elvencraft shortbow. If you're not doing a super-long-range sniper, and you've got Weapon Finesse, then the shortbow is a club (which is finessable) and you can switch between the two freely, and there isn't any real difference between the shortbow and the longbow that matters on a non-sniper. If you're insisting on a sword, your best bet is probably a short sword - not only is it a martial finessable weapon, but it's also got access to Shadow Blade (if you're sinking three feats into your backup weapon, you'll get more mileage out of those three - Martial Study (Cloak of Deception or Shadow Jaunt), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), and Shadow Blade. The first two will support your archery as well as the short sword, while the last gives you Dexterity to damage with the shortsword).

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style))

[TS] Assassin's Speed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

[RT] Something for Everyone: A.K.A. The Last Sorcerer RT Will Ever Build (Caster, Damage, Trapscout, Takedowns)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

I just houserule that any race can take Improved Weapon Familiarity (RoS) instead of the "normal" racial proficiencies. Sadly, that really only works with dwarves, elves, and gnomes.
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Bloody hell. No, No, No, and No. This has in fact been covered. I have to look this up. (To cite it).  

Before I get home, to prove it, it goes like this, in 3.5:  

Racial weapons are traded out. You get a couple if you are entitled. Elves DO NOT. If you get a couple, you don't get the others. Unless you take that feat.

Back in a minute.
 


Racial weapons are traded out. You get a couple if you are entitled. Elves DO NOT. If you get a couple, you don't get the others. Unless you take that feat.

 



House rules aside, that's how I'm reading it too.  I was just wondering if I missed anything on it.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/4.jpg)

According to official rules the racial weapons with the gnome hammers, dwarven war axe and urgosh and so on are treated as martial weapons when used by their race.

Makes sense to justify that elven exotc weapons are exotic to non-elves but martial weapons to their own kind. 

Ask the GM for this ruling. 
I might have this post ganked by the mods, because it is not open game license.

And sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I got drunk and passed out. (There, I admit it.)

Here:


Weapon Familiarity


Some races are associated with specific exotic weapons, such as dwarves and the dwarven waraxe. The Player’s Handbook grants weapon familiarity to these races, allowing them to treat certain exotic weapons as martial weapons. With the limited number of race-specific exotic weapons in the Player’s Handbook, this doesn’t give any one race an unfair advantage. However, if you introduce more race-specific exotic weapons, the advantage increases in significance.
To compensate, consider limiting the number of exotic weapons that a given character of that race can treat as familiar to no more than the number of weapons associated with the race in the Player’s Handbook (or in the Monster Manual for orcs). Thus, a given dwarf fighter might be able to treat the dwarven waraxe and the dwarven buckler-axe as martial weapons, but would have to treat the dwarven urgrosh as an exotic weapon. A gnome ranger could treat the gnome hooked hammer or the gnome tortoise blade (a new weapon) as a martial weapon, but not both. An elf fighter can’t treat any exotic weapons as martial weapons, since elves don’t have weapon familiarity with any
exotic weapons according to the Player’s Handbook. Characters who wish to master all their race’s exotic weapons can select theImproved Weapon Familiarity feat.
If the character must choose which exotic weapons to treat as martial weapons, this decision should be made the first time the character gains profi ciency in all martial weapons (at 1st level for a barbarian, fighter, paladin, or ranger, or the first time a character gains a level in any of those classes or any prestige class that grants proficiency in all martial weapons). Once the decision is made, it can’t be changed; however, the DM may allow characters to change their decisions if new race-specific exotic weapons are later introduced to the game.
Even if a character treats an exotic weapon as a martial weapon thanks to weapon familiarity, it is still treated as an exotic weapon for the purpose of qualifying for feats, prestige classes, or other benefi ts that require the character to be skilled in the use of an exotic weapon.


Source: Complete Warrior


 
Elfs get the longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow, composite bows as extra weapon proficiency feats, regardless of what class they are.

Which is far greater then the Dwarfs who only get their two weapons as martial instead of exotic. ie a Dwarfen Rogue or Cleric doesn't get Martial weapons and so wouldstill  have to pick up the extra feat to use these. It only gives access to those classes that have Martial Weapons (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger and Barbarian)

So as long as the Elfen weapons are longsword, rapier, longbow or shortbow, they are available for Elfs, so it would be best to design weapons around these, magical weapons or varients on these weapons (ie long rapier) that can still be used by those with the proficiency.

Racial Exotic weapons may not be common to all of that race, they might be used by a limited number of that race. ie the description for Elfen Thinblade is that it is comon for Elf Lords to use it, which means it may still be exotic even among elfs.
doesnt the elven thinblade count as a rapier for feats? so elves would be familiar with it, cause thwy would get profency(rapier) as a bonus feat
Seeron, that is indeed a very interesting post/point. You have to realize that many sources and many writers mean that nobody talked to each other as the years went by. But I believe that you are correct, and that the term you mean is "shared proficiency" or "shared focus". I'll have to look that up at some point. 

My gut reaction is that to say, nope. Elves are fricken cool, but it's just not fair to make them more cool. 
Y but the PHB should have been avaible while they created CW. So the synergy, if it exsists, should have been intendes
Seeron, there are several weapons out there, notably I beleive in the arms and Equipment guide (although that is 3.0 really) there is some rapier varients. Usually that is mentioned in the weapon description. If it is a Rapier or Longsword, then Yes, Elfs would be proficient in them.

The description in the book says they are "rapier Like"  but gives no rules saying that they are rapier, or that rapier feats applie also to them. However if you read the entry in the book regarding weapn familiarity, it suggests allowing to trade out new racial weapons with the existing one. Ie an Elf decides to add ThinBlade but sacrifices his weapon preficiency with Rapiers to do so.

Note the book describes the Elfen Lightblade as "rapier like" but then says that elfen nobles often carry the lightblade as a sign of their station, "even if they aren't proficient in its use" So the book does not really suggest that all elfs are profiecient in it the same as they are Rapiers. 

i was having the Races of the Wild version in my mind. But it also nly says; "Characters proficient with this weapon may treat it as a shortword or a rapier for the purpose of the follwing feats:..."



So you have to be proficient to get this benefit. Sad.

Aye those feats list specific weapons that can be used with them, ie Weapon Finesse states: "With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain" so that entry just adds the weapon to the feat's list.
na it also helps, when you have a lightblade and a thinblade, you olnly need Weapon focus(rapier) of get it on both of them
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