Fatal Lore with touch of Radiate

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Hi,

Here's a hypothetical scenario:

My opponent has, let's say 7 creatures on the battlefield. I cast [C]Fatal Lore[/C]. I choose an opponent and he/she chooses the second option. I now choose to destroy one creature and target it. Now I will play [C]Radiate[/C] while Fatal Lore is on the stack. What will happen and what can me and my opponent choose on each instance of Fatal Lore?

My assumption:

Fatal Lore is copied 6 times. For each instance I can choose an opponent (can be different or same if more opponents) and for each instance the chosen opponent chooses between the two options. For each time the second option is chosen (the first one is clear) I can choose the number of targets. Then I target the creatures to destroy, but I can't choose same creature that has been targeted by any previous instance of Fatal Lore (I might want to do this in case of regeneration). Then all 7 Fatal Lores will resolve in orderly fashion.

That....or the decision for opponent is made upon resolving and the spell cannot be responded to anymore at that point.

I am very unsure about my assumption because the Fatal Lore has so many variables. Could someone set this straight, please?

Thanks!
Radiate will create one copy of Fatal Lore targeting each of your opponent's other creatures (six copies in total). You have no choices in the matter (as per Radiate's text). Note that most copy effects specify that you are allowed to choose new targets, but Radiate does not.

Your opponent will lose all his creatures and draw anywhere from zero to three cards for each one.

Edit: Fixed a silly mistake that was probably confusing.
So all the decisions stated on [C]Fatal Lore[/C] (except the number of card drawn) are ignored/pre-made?
After a while it hit me. The decisions are also copied.
Read Fatal Lore's oracle text! You don't target the opponent anymore, he/she merely is the one choosing the mode of the spell at the time the choice needs to be made, when you cast the spell. Everything else happens on resolution. Since copies copy the chosen mode as well, they will all have the same mode.
After a while it hit me. The decisions are also copied.


No they are not, because they haven't been made yet.
After a while it hit me. The decisions are also copied.


No they are not, because they haven't been made yet.


So I cannot target [C]Fatal Lore[/C] with [C]Radiate[/C] because the target instant or sorcery has to have exactly one target, and when Fatal Lore is on stack, it hasn't targeted anything yet? EDIT: Some choises must be made before targeting a creature with Fatal Lore, right?

Or which decisions are you referring to? Shall we give choises some reference numbers: I choose an opponent (1st), he/she chooses me to draw cards or me to target creatures and him-/herself to draw cards (2nd), I might have to choose the number of targets from 0 to 2 (3rd), I don't consider targeting to be choosing so that's ignored, and last the opponent might have option to choose 0-3 cards to draw (4th). Third and fourth cannot exist in the same instance of Fatal Lore so that makes total of 3 choises per Fatal Lore.
You choose the opponent (1st), that chooses the mode (2nd), when you cast the spell. If he/she chooses the second one, you can then choose to target only one creature with the spell (3rd), which makes the spell a legitimate target for Radiate. You then need to specify the target, also while casting the spell. The choice of how many cards your opponent draws, however, is made for each copy as it resolves (4th). You cannot switch opponents with the copies, nor can you reselect the number of targets for each copy, nor can you change the mode for them.
If the original Fatal Lore has only one target, you may target the spell with Radiate.

When an effect creates a copy of a spell on the stack, it creates an exact copy that remembers all choices made during the casting process. The effect may then allow you to make some changes; so far, the only choice that could be changed is the spell's target(s). You don't get to choose an opponent, or the mode of the spell, for the copies.

Radiate dictates the number of copies, and that each new copy must target a new target. What you choose is the order those copies go onto the stack. So you have some degree of control over what order your opponent's creatures are destroyed in.

You have no control over the number of cards your opponent draws as each copy resolves.


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You choose the opponent (1st), that chooses the mode (2nd), when you cast the spell. If he/she chooses the second one, you can then choose to target only one creature with the spell (3rd), which makes the spell a legitimate target for Radiate. You then need to specify the target, also while casting the spell. The choice of how many cards your opponent draws, however, is made for each copy as it resolves (4th). You cannot switch opponents with the copies, nor can you reselect the number of targets for each copy, nor can you change the mode for them.


I think that covers it. Thank you.
One more thing came to mind. Why can opponent choose the number of cards to draw on resolution and not when the card is cast? Isn't it equal to choosing the number of target creatures?
because "target" has a special rules meaning
those always have to be chosen when cast
proud member of the 2011 community team
One more thing came to mind. Why can opponent choose the number of cards to draw on resolution and not when the card is cast? Isn't it equal to choosing the number of target creatures?



Because the effect doesn't occur until resolution. The targeting must occur when the spell is being cast.

The first effect is: you destroy up to two target creatures that opponent controls
The second is: that player draws up to three cards.

The "up to" phrasing is important. 
One more thing came to mind. Why can opponent choose the number of cards to draw on resolution and not when the card is cast? Isn't it equal to choosing the number of target creatures?



Because the effect doesn't occur until resolution. The targeting must occur when the spell is being cast.

The first effect is: you destroy up to two target creatures that opponent controls
The second is: that player draws up to three cards.

The "up to" phrasing is important. 


So if the card would say "that player chooses to draw 0, 1, 2 or 3 cards (EDIT: rephrased)", then the choice would be made when casting?
no

it would have to be worded as
"choose one - target player draws 0 cards; target player draws 1 card;..."

only modes and targets are chosen on casting, everything else on resolution
proud member of the 2011 community team
no

it would have to be worded as
"choose one - target player draws 0 cards; target player draws 1 card;..."

only modes and targets are chosen on casting, everything else on resolution


But the first thing I choose is an opponent who chooses the mode.
yes

then the spell basically reads
"destroy up to two target creatures that opponent controls and that player draws up to three cards. Those creatures can't be regenerated."

so now you choose up to 2 legal targets and the spell is cast

when it resolves the creatures are destroyed and the opponent decides how many cards he wants to draw (because it says "up to")
proud member of the 2011 community team
yes

then the spell basically reads
"destroy up to two target creatures that opponent controls and that player draws up to three cards. Those creatures can't be regenerated."

so now you choose up to 2 legal targets and the spell is cast

when it resolves the creatures are destroyed and the opponent decides how many cards he wants to draw (because it says "up to")


But if everything but targeting and modes are chosen on resolution, would I not choose the opponent to choose the mode on resolution also? Then the mode could not be chosen nor possible targeting when the spell is cast.
that is implied
the card reads "An opponent chooses one — "
so you have to choose an opponent to do the choosing, even if it doesn't explicitly say so
proud member of the 2011 community team
that is implied
the card reads "An opponent chooses one — "
so you have to choose an opponent to do the choosing, even if it doesn't explicitly say so


That's my point exactly. That isn't choosing a mode nor is it choosing a target so shouldn't it also be chosen on resolution?
it is choosing a mode
it's just not you that is doing the choosing
proud member of the 2011 community team
Here are the rules regarding this:

601.3. Some spells specify that one of their controller’s opponents does something the controller would normally do while it’s being cast, such as choose a mode or choose targets. In these cases, the opponent does so when the spell’s controller normally would do so.

601.3a If there is more than one opponent who could make such a choice, the spell’s controller decides which of those opponents will make the choice.
Here are the rules regarding this:

601.3. Some spells specify that one of their controller’s opponents does something the controller would normally do while it’s being cast, such as choose a mode or choose targets. In these cases, the opponent does so when the spell’s controller normally would do so.

601.3a If there is more than one opponent who could make such a choice, the spell’s controller decides which of those opponents will make the choice.


Ah, there was a specific rule for this kind of situation. Sorry everyone for being a difficult customer. Just trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks again.

Ah, there was a specific rule for this kind of situation. Sorry everyone for being a difficult customer. Just trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks again.



No need to apologize. Magic is a complex game, and this forum's only purpose is to answer questions. 

But if everything but targeting and modes are chosen on resolution, would I not choose the opponent to choose the mode on resolution also? Then the mode could not be chosen nor possible targeting when the spell is cast.

The rules create a framework for the cards to work. Under that framewok, modes have to be chosen during casting.

For Fatal Lore, the designers had the choice of making the caster select an opponent before modes are chosen to allow the opponent to choose a mode at the normal time, or to postpone the choice of modes until resolution.

The problem with the latter is that the choice of target(s) is dependent on the choice of mode. It's easier to have Fatal Lore create an extra choice while casting (which has the additional precedent of the order choices are made while casting a spell) than to have Fatal Lore postpone the choice of targets.
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