Creating: A Dragon's Maze flavor game

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I'm going to make this short and simple:

I want to get the community together to make a classic Guildwars game for Dragon's Maze.

I have not put any thought yet toward guild abilities because I have barely kept up with the "New Guilds." I've heard talk about the Simic being so different but it doesn't show terribly through the cards.

I have the same kind of plans on this as a person who says, "Hey, you know what would be cool?"

We need to make this happen. I'm calling on all of you to be excited about gathering your ideas in a democratic, yet Ravnican inspired, flavor game.

Just start spitballing ideas. See if they stick. BE VOCAL ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS. Roleplay for no good reason. Explain to the uninitiated how this goes.

I am not Skibo. I cannot come up with game skeletons quickly, nor will I outright dismiss a good idea withought knowing how it will test.


For anyone who is interested:
Here's the first Guildwars.

Here's the Second.

Here's the Finale.

tl;dr this thread is so that the game will be ready when the time comes, not to compete with any games running currently or in the near future.

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

It's harder than it looks. 

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
It's harder than it looks. 

42 has the advantage, though, of having all of Skibo's preceeding games to work from. He's really done his homework. And Skibo's games usually involved a beta test anyway.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
ill join this. First we need a way to win. You could make it that each guild starts with one district, and to win the game, you need to have the most districts once all of them are claimed.
You can use this game if you want:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

It kinda died out, but if you can manage to get people to post consistently, it works pretty well.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
It's harder than it looks. 

42 has the advantage, though, of having all of Skibo's preceeding games to work from. He's really done his homework. And Skibo's games usually involved a beta test anyway.


The problem is, most of the "homework" was done for M13 game. I set out to make it as simple as I could compell myself to make it. This game will throw a couple of learned problems out the window, such as "reaction abilities = bad" and "no more than 1 type of token creation." This is Guildwars, and we need the complexity. Not to mention those are going to be necessary evils for 10 to 15+ abilities.
ill join this. First we need a way to win. You could make it that each guild starts with one district, and to win the game, you need to have the most districts once all of them are claimed.


If you can come up with a good way to balance it, sure. Also, check out Skibo's last project, a GWIV Beta that used a grid system like Cato's game.

I personally couldn't help that much in that case, because I have nowhere near the experience Skibo did. He made something like... almost 20 games. I don't know how well it would work out; unless you could manage to simplify the process. The Avacyn Restored game went over decently, but only had 2 sides; Karn's Legacy (the Scars of Mirrodin/New Phyrexia game which I cannot find at the moment to link to) also had 2 sides but lasted a total of 3 pages. Everyone was Phyrexia side, the Mirran side made like, 2 moves total, and to top it all off, Phyrexia had stronger abilities.
You can use this game if you want:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

It kinda died out, but if you can manage to get people to post consistently, it works pretty well.


If I may;
The problem you had with the game is just that you're asking for people who post every day. When you out people who miss a day, your player base is just going to get smaller and smaller before the game is even over on its own terms. I believe that's why these voting games have always been "anyone can join at any time." Some of the less well-recieved games had problems with new players catching up.

If you could get a dedicated group, it would work great. But I think you would be better served by either A. letting people join for abandoned/unclaimed guilds; or B. wait for everyone registered to move before the game goes forward. I saw you already tried B., and that's just an issue with recruiting F&S people. If you notice, not a whole lot goes on down here. I love it that way, but it's not very conducive to a proper game.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So yes, we do need a win condition. And an end game mechanic. But to do that, we need a basic structure.

Now, I'm not nearly active enough to oversee changes to a vast map for the game; and I won't strictly be DM'ing anyway. I'd rather if those more experienced could talk about changes needed (if any) while in game. A Board Of Dungeon Masters, if you will. Point being, upkeeping a map is difficult and I miss the classic style of these voting games.

... How many people do you suppose will be joining the game? I figure somewhere around 12-15 people is an okay estimate.

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

I'm in.

This game will throw a couple of learned problems out the window, such as "reaction abilities = bad" and "no more than 1 type of token creation." This is Guildwars, and we need the complexity. Not to mention those are going to be necessary evils for 10 to 15+ abilities.

I'll need to look over the threads for the games I wasn't in, so it might take a bit. Also, aren't we going to need more than 10-15 abilities? I figure each guild will have at least two standard abilities for regular use and perhaps an "endgame" like Skibo had drawn up last fall, so isn't more like ~30?

If you can come up with a good way to balance it, sure. Also, check out Skibo's last project, a GWIV Beta that used a grid system like Cato's game.

I personally couldn't help that much in that case, because I have nowhere near the experience Skibo did. He made something like... almost 20 games. I don't know how well it would work out; unless you could manage to simplify the process. The Avacyn Restored game went over decently, but only had 2 sides; Karn's Legacy (the Scars of Mirrodin/New Phyrexia game which I cannot find at the moment to link to) also had 2 sides but lasted a total of 3 pages. Everyone was Phyrexia side, the Mirran side made like, 2 moves total, and to top it all off, Phyrexia had stronger abilities.

Yeah, I still remember the mood of "oh wow... it's already over" that accompanied the Scars of Mirrodin game. Of course, I contributed to the problem by joining the Phyrexians, so there's that. Thankfully, we had a better run with New Phyrexia, even if there were a couple flags that went up over the course of the game (namely, the issue of how the Progress Engine's special kicked in). That's really just the danger of pitting two sides against each other, though - the first to gain the numbers advantage will steamroll the competition. With 10 guilds to choose from, the odds of that happening here are mercifully low.



So yes, we do need a win condition. And an end game mechanic. But to do that, we need a basic structure.

Now, I'm not nearly active enough to oversee changes to a vast map for the game; and I won't strictly be DM'ing anyway. I'd rather if those more experienced could talk about changes needed (if any) while in game. A Board Of Dungeon Masters, if you will. Point being, upkeeping a map is difficult and I miss the classic style of these voting games.

So right now you are leaning towards the old-school style? That's fine with me, but the sooner we get a consensus as to what folks want, the sooner we can begin brainstorming abilities. At the moment, I really like the endgames from the GWIV beta, and I would hope to be able to provide a voting tally game with something similar.

... How many people do you suppose will be joining the game? I figure somewhere around 12-15 people is an okay estimate.

Seems like a solid number. I just hope that each of the guilds will be represented. If memory serves me correctly, in GWIII, Orzhov ( ), Golgari, and Izzet were off to an early lead, and Gruul, which had no members, just sat there until it was put out of its misery.

My Sig
Reality is but the sum total of all illusions. Proud Hand of Karsus, now and forever Mess with one Hand, mess with 'em all I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
"just do what LM the lord of magical might does, and you'll be fine" - sfdragon, 10/12/09
Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
I would vote for a traditional game, simply because we have the most data about those games. I would also vote for lower complexity. Skibo spent a LOT of complexity points on later games, and I think they definitely lost players because of it.

That said, we've also lost forumgoers since, say, the EXTREMELY well attended Alara game, what with the stupid software changes and the frustrating hoops you have to go through to make an account and so on. So, we have to factor that in as well.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
Cato's game can be slowed down to any speed. You can also just skip people's turns when they don't move, like in other voting games.
 
It's also a fun and interesting game design, and seems balanced to me. 
Cato's game can be slowed down to any speed. You can also just skip people's turns when they don't move, like in other voting games.
 
It's also a fun and interesting game design, and seems balanced to me. 


This.

Also, of the 6 people who signed up and made a move by the first move deadline (announced a week before it began), one pm'd me saying he was dropping out, and two didn't respond for a week.  I don't think the deadlines are the reason it failed.  Still, if you want, you can change the deadline.  I think it's a great game, but I don't want to deal with the drama of running it.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
I know I said I wanted to hold off brainstorming abilities until we established what format we are using, but I couldn't help myself. I've thrown together a few standard abilities for the guilds, but I need to slow my roll until we decide on the complexity level.
My Sig
Reality is but the sum total of all illusions. Proud Hand of Karsus, now and forever Mess with one Hand, mess with 'em all I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
"just do what LM the lord of magical might does, and you'll be fine" - sfdragon, 10/12/09
Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
I'm in.


LordM! How have you been? Man, it's great to know you've been lurking around.
This game will throw a couple of learned problems out the window, such as "reaction abilities = bad" and "no more than 1 type of token creation." This is Guildwars, and we need the complexity. Not to mention those are going to be necessary evils for 10 to 15+ abilities.

I'll need to look over the threads for the games I wasn't in, so it might take a bit. Also, aren't we going to need more than 10-15 abilities? I figure each guild will have at least two standard abilities for regular use and perhaps an "endgame" like Skibo had drawn up last fall, so isn't more like ~30?


Well, perhaps you're right in that we'll need more than just a normal and ultimate ability for each guild, but I'd like to keep the complexity down as much as possible to get as many people interested as I can. 15 abilties allows a Signature (always "on"), a Standard (skip turn or part of turn), and an Ultimate (endgame-power) ability for each guild.

GWIII had 50 abilities! Plus the Dominance mechanic. Although some of the abilities were broken up from older abilites (the Dimir had one ability to add and one ability to use them). Unfortunately, due to sheer size I have not looked over the game as part of my research, but I know at the least that several people were carrying around the entire rules in their signatures because we kept having to refer to them -- especially the one who did the daily update.

Constantly refering to the rulebook is (generally) not fun. The game itself can be fun, but needing to look up the rules every turn is a big hassle for most people. That's why I want to keep the number of abilities down.

If you can come up with a good way to balance it, sure. Also, check out Skibo's last project, a GWIV Beta that used a grid system like Cato's game.

I personally couldn't help that much in that case, because I have nowhere near the experience Skibo did. He made something like... almost 20 games. I don't know how well it would work out; unless you could manage to simplify the process. The Avacyn Restored game went over decently, but only had 2 sides; Karn's Legacy (the Scars of Mirrodin/New Phyrexia game which I cannot find at the moment to link to) also had 2 sides but lasted a total of 3 pages. Everyone was Phyrexia side, the Mirran side made like, 2 moves total, and to top it all off, Phyrexia had stronger abilities.

Yeah, I still remember the mood of "oh wow... it's already over" that accompanied the Scars of Mirrodin game. Of course, I contributed to the problem by joining the Phyrexians, so there's that. Thankfully, we had a better run with New Phyrexia, even if there were a couple flags that went up over the course of the game (namely, the issue of how the Progress Engine's special kicked in). That's really just the danger of pitting two sides against each other, though - the first to gain the numbers advantage will steamroll the competition. With 10 guilds to choose from, the odds of that happening here are mercifully low.


I've figured much the same, in that having enough sides makes it easier to balance, but it still hasn't had a great track record. It's not outlandish to say that counting territories to determine a win could grant one side a victory consistently, if you ran the game several times over, even with 10 guilds to side with. Especially so given the apparent popularity of the Izzet this block.


So yes, we do need a win condition. And an end game mechanic. But to do that, we need a basic structure.

Now, I'm not nearly active enough to oversee changes to a vast map for the game; and I won't strictly be DM'ing anyway. I'd rather if those more experienced could talk about changes needed (if any) while in game. A Board Of Dungeon Masters, if you will. Point being, upkeeping a map is difficult and I miss the classic style of these voting games.

So right now you are leaning towards the old-school style? That's fine with me, but the sooner we get a consensus as to what folks want, the sooner we can begin brainstorming abilities. At the moment, I really like the endgames from the GWIV beta, and I would hope to be able to provide a voting tally game with something similar.

I'm sorry, but what was the endgame there? All I remember/see was Rakdos's defeat ability which slowly destroyed territories. Is that what you mean, or is there something I'm missing?

... How many people do you suppose will be joining the game? I figure somewhere around 12-15 people is an okay estimate.

Seems like a solid number. I just hope that each of the guilds will be represented. If memory serves me correctly, in GWIII, Orzhov ( ), Golgari, and Izzet were off to an early lead, and Gruul, which had no members, just sat there until it was put out of its misery.



You would probably be surprised how often a side has been completely empty. And unfortunately just as often if not moreso a single side will have twice as many members as any other side. When the former happens it means a lack of data since the ability did not get used. When the latter happens you can usually dig down and see how good/bad the ability was.




I would vote for a traditional game, simply because we have the most data about those games. I would also vote for lower complexity. Skibo spent a LOT of complexity points on later games, and I think they definitely lost players because of it.

That said, we've also lost forumgoers since, say, the EXTREMELY well attended Alara game, what with the stupid software changes and the frustrating hoops you have to go through to make an account and so on. So, we have to factor that in as well.


That's why I figure somewhere around a dozen people should be playing. About 18 people showed up for Yanmato and my M12 game last year, though I managed to round up like, 3 or 4 people via PM (you included, Keeper).



Cato's game can be slowed down to any speed. You can also just skip people's turns when they don't move, like in other voting games.
 
It's also a fun and interesting game design, and seems balanced to me. 


This.

Also, of the 6 people who signed up and made a move by the first move deadline (announced a week before it began), one pm'd me saying he was dropping out, and two didn't respond for a week.  I don't think the deadlines are the reason it failed.  Still, if you want, you can change the deadline.  I think it's a great game, but I don't want to deal with the drama of running it.


I was not aware of that. The main thing I would want to change, though, is having one person DM'ing the game. I cetainly don't have the time to do it, and I don't want to ask anyone else to stay out of the game just to DM. It was a great idea, having the secrets and politics, but I would need to change the bones for it to work out well enough here.

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

What would you be trying to accomplish with the changes?  If you tell me I can suggest a few changes.

Also, here's how I represent the board:
pastebin.com/tyJLxqb7
I use upper case letters surrounded by asterisks (*O* for Orzhov) to denote the locations of guildmages and lower case letters to show territory (#s are neutral territory).  In games with both gruul and golgari, I'd use U to represent gruul, and in games with both simic and selesnya, I'd use E to represent selesnya.

I also write a line for each player below the board with information about them.
(username), (guild) guildmage:  life/mana actions
example:
cato, izzet guildmage:  14/3, made a basic attack hitting 42 the Azorius guildmage.

I usually update the game in the following order:
1:  Go through every pm I've received, move their characters, and update their actions taken
2:  Go through the actions and make appropriate changes to life/mana
3:  Update territory control
4:  Give a life point to everyone who didn't take damage this turn, and restore mana based on territory.  For counting territory, try pressing ctrl+f and then entering the letter of the guild you're searching for.  This will highlight every one of that letter.

It took like 20 minutes to update the board when I had 5 people, so if you relax the schedule and update the game once every few days it shouldn't be that much work.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl

How about a grid game with walls, since it's supposed to be a maze? Each of the bolded areas below is a wall with 6 health that can be attacked normally and cannot otherwise be passed. Just an example:

 

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Each guild starts with 5 territories (with 2 health each) and a guildgate. A guild loses when all of their territories are destroyed. Each guildmage may heal one of their territories and hurt an enemy's territory each day. Whenever a guildmage attacks an unoccupied territory, it gains 2 strengths and that guild gains control of it. Captured territories are color-coded to indicate their controller. Each guild has 2 abilities, one is constant and the other comes from the guildgate. Guildgates act like other territories, but only have 1 strength and is captured instantly upon being attacked. If the Dimir attacked the Izzet Guildgate for example, the Izzet would lose their gate ability and the Dimir would gain it. 

All guilds have the following ability.
 
Construction: Choose 1 - Put a 04 wall on an unoccupied adjacent territory; Or target territory you control gains 4 strength and becomes a wall. (using this ability to sabotage your guild will result in being banned from the game).


Some guild can interact with walls in different ways. 3 abilities that I've thought of so far are:

Decompose: Whenever a Golgari Guildmage attacks a wall, that wall takes 1 extra damage and the territory it was attacked from heal 1.

Infiltrate: Dimir can attack occupied areas in a straight horizontal or vertical line through any number of walls.

Rampage: Gruul can capture walls as if they were unoccupied territories.

Anything that has an erratic update schedule is at a disadvantage, I think. Part of the reason I really just eventually disengaged from Cato's game is that I'm used to Skibo's setup where every day ends at the same time, and you can plan your moves accordingly up to like weeks in advance if you need to. I think having that kind of regularity is a big deal.

42, I think your numbers are off. 2 abilities per guild is already 20 abilites. Ten guilds, remember? Or am I missing something?

You could keep the endgame abilities secret if you wanted to keep the game from feeling frontloaded... that's an option.
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How about the gamemaster make a maze, put everyone in it, and there's a treasure at the some unknown point (that everyone can theoretically get to, and as close to equidistant from all 10 starting points).

Nobody but the gamemaster (who isn't an actual player) knows the maze.

Of course, there's the question of hidden information.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt

How about a grid game with walls, since it's supposed to be a maze? Each of the bolded areas below is a wall with 6 health that can be attacked normally and cannot otherwise be passed. Just an example:

 

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Each guild starts with 5 territories (with 2 health each) and a guildgate. A guild loses when all of their territories are destroyed. Each guildmage may heal one of their territories and hurt an enemy's territory each day. Whenever a guildmage attacks an unoccupied territory, it gains 2 strengths and that guild gains control of it. Captured territories are color-coded to indicate their controller. Each guild has 2 abilities, one is constant and the other comes from the guildgate. Guildgates act like other territories, but only have 1 strength and is captured instantly upon being attacked. If the Dimir attacked the Izzet Guildgate for example, the Izzet would lose their gate ability and the Dimir would gain it. 

All guilds have the following ability.
 
Construction: Choose 1 - Put a 04 wall on an unoccupied adjacent territory; Or target territory you control gains 4 strength and becomes a wall. (using this ability to sabotage your guild will result in being banned from the game).


Some guild can interact with walls in different ways. 3 abilities that I've thought of so far are:

Decompose: Whenever a Golgari Guildmage attacks a wall, that wall takes 1 extra damage and the territory it was attacked from heal 1.

Infiltrate: Dimir can attack occupied areas in a straight horizontal or vertical line through any number of walls.

Rampage: Gruul can capture walls as if they were unoccupied territories.



That sounds like it adds complexity but doesn't actually make the game more fun or interesting.
Anything that has an erratic update schedule is at a disadvantage, I think. Part of the reason I really just eventually disengaged from Cato's game is that I'm used to Skibo's setup where every day ends at the same time, and you can plan your moves accordingly up to like weeks in advance if you need to. I think having that kind of regularity is a big deal.

42, I think your numbers are off. 2 abilities per guild is already 20 abilites. Ten guilds, remember? Or am I missing something?

You could keep the endgame abilities secret if you wanted to keep the game from feeling frontloaded... that's an option.


It started off as a regular schedule, but then people stopped posting regularly, and I didn't want to kick them, so it stopped being a regular schedule, and then you and morg didn't post or reply to my PMs and then it became no schedule and that's about when the game died.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
DARK LORD TEVISH'S DRAFT/PROPOSAL

Drop the grid... it's a right mess: tally screwups were endemic in old guildwars games, but relativley easy to fix.  Mistakes with a grid, like the chronic loss of bold/colors, would get insane to try to trace.

We tried out the grid mechanic with Avacyn Restored, and though the "only two factions" aspect is probably what sealed that game's fate, I do think the grid kind of fell flat, and didn't add much compared to the old tally system.

So, I'm goign to write up a "tally Style" game reflecting New Ravnica


GUILDWARS: THE DRAGON'S MAZE

There are 10 factions in the new guildwars game.  Individuals may join any one of them at the outset of the game, or when joining the game later.  Once you select a guild, you're in it for the life of the guild.  There is an 11th faction, the Gateless Rebels, that does not exist when the game starts.

When your guild is defeated (unless you were Golgari) your full move consists of a single basic attack with none of the perks of your old guild.  You may, however, join any other guild (even if you are Golgari) or the Gateless Rebels once they exist.  Members of the Gateless may NEVER join another guild.

A basic move for members of any faction consists of an attack and a reinforcement.  Any move must cover both actions to be considered valid.  one's "entire turn" refers to both the attack and the reinforcement.  One may attack any guild but only reinforce one's own

Text effects (Bold, Italic, Underline, Strikethrough, et cetera) are removed from the tally at the start of each day.  Symbols remain until one is instructed to remove them.

Tokens that are added to the tally are added under the main guilds.  Tokens come in two types: small tokens whose numbers are counted (1/1), and big tokens with power/toughness is tracked individually.  Attacking a group of small tokens kills one small token per "hit" of the attack, regardless of how much damage each "hit" does -- unless you could target multiple entities sepratley, you can't kill more than one small token at a time.  Damaging a large token reduces its toughness by an amount equal to the damage dealt.

A guild is "Dominant" if it has more life than the guild above it in the tally and more life than the guild below it in the tally.  Put a * in front of the name of Dominant guilds to note that they are Dominant.  Unlike in GWIII, the GW:tDM Tally is circular -- the guild atop the tally is below the guild on the bottom of the tally.

Each faction has a suite of abilities including a Special Action (That replaces an attack, a reinforcement, or both), a Passive Power, A Dominance Ability, and an Endgame (an effect that occurs when a guild is eliminated)

Azorious
>>>Special Action: Detain.  An Azorious guildmember may skip his or her attack to detain a guild that is not bold on the tally:  put a next to the detained guild.  Members of the detained guild cannot take any other action other than spending their entire turn to remove the .  No more than one may be on any given guild at any time, and when one is removed this way, bold the un-detained guild
>>>Passive Power: Bureaucracy.  The Azorious never take more than 1 damage from a single source
>>>Dominance: Judgment.  As long as the Azorious is dominant and not Struck Through, an Azorious Guildmage may skip his or her entire move to wipe all symbols from the tally and destroy all tokens.  Strike Through the Azorious.
>>>Endgame: Lawlessness.  Attacks from Gateless Rebels now cause 2 damage instead of one

Orzhov
>>>Special Action: Extort.  An Orzhov player may skip his or her entire move to place a '$' Symbol next to any other guild that is not currently bold.  at the end of each day, each guild with an '$' loses one life and the Orzhov gain one life.  Only 3 $ may exist at a time: to add a new $ when 3 are out, the Orzhov guildmage must choose a current $ and remove it.  $ may also be removed by the targeted guild, by skipping an entire move.  Doing so Bolds the guild that removed their $.
>>>Passive Power: Tax to Death.  When the attack of an Orzhov guildmage reduces a non-italic guild's life to a multiple of 5, they may italicize that guild and gain 1 life.
>>>Dominance: The Council Rises.  As long as the Orzhov are dominant, guilds can't gain life through reinforcements or special actions (This includes the Orzhov.  Passive powers can still grant life)
>>>Endgame: Financial Collapse.   All guilds lose 5 life the instant the Orzhov are defeated, and for the rest of that day and the whole of the following day, they can't use their special actions, their passive powers don't work, and .

Dimir
>>>Special Action: Assassination.  A dimir player may skip his or her attack to put a next to the Dimir.  When the Dimir have 5 , remove them and put an next to the dimir instead.  A dimir player may, without spending an action, remove any number of from the dimir.  For each removed, the dimir deal 7 damage divided as the removing player chooses among any number of targets.
>>>Passive Power: Cipher.  when a Dimir guildmage damages a guild with a basic attack, the attacking player may Encode the dimir with that guild (put that guild's name in parentheses next to the dimir's life on the tally -- treat this as a symbol).  As long as the dimir have an encoded guild, they can use that guild's special action. Replace all instances of the owning guild's name in instant effects with "Dimir" (but lingering effects such as extort still refer to their owning guild).  The Dimir may only have one guild encoded at a time.  If a Dimir Guildmage wishes to encode a new guild, it replaces the old one.
>>>Dominance: Utter Secrecy.  As long as the dimir are dominant, they can't be attacked or targeted by guilds that are not italic.  When dominant Dimir damage a guild, italicize it.
>>>Endgame: Freedom of Information.  Members of the Gateless Rebels get two moves instead of one for the rest of the game.

Izzet
>>>Special Action: Out-of Control Experiment.  Members of the Izzet may skip their attack to put a next to target guild.  A member of the targeted guild may spend his or her whole turn to remove the .  At the end of the day, remove all and each deals damage to the guild it was removed from equal to the total number of removed (So if two were on the orzhov and one on the gruul, the orzhov take 6 damage and the gruul take 3.  If there was also one on the dimir, the orzhov would take 8 and the dimir and gruul 4 each)
>>>Passive Power: SCIENCE!  The Izzet can't be targeted by harmful special actions that do not immediatley deal damage other than Out-of-Control Experiment (Such as Detain or Extort, but not Assassination or Unleash)
>>>Dominance: Overload.  While the Izzet are dominant, izzet guildmages may skip their reinforcements to deliver Out-of-Control experiments, too.
>>>Endgame: Gone Horribly Wrong. When the Izzet are defeated, but next to every living guild.

Rakdos
>>>Special Action: Unleash.  Members of the Rakdos may skip their reinforcement to deal 2 damage to target guild.
>>>Passive Power: Launch Party.  Destroy target token and deal damage to its owner equal to that token's power.
>>>Dominance: Bringing Down the House.  As long as the Rakdos are dominant, all damage is doubled.
>>>Endgame: Release the Guests!  If the Gateless Rebels exist, they immediatley gain 5 life. Otherwise, all guilds gain 5 life and the Gateless Rebels will start with 10 extra life.

Golgari
>>>Special action: Putrefy.  A Golgari Guildmage may skip his or her attack to put a next to a non-italic guild.  Guilds with next to them can't gain life.  When the Golgari damage a guild with next to it, remove the and italicize the guild.
>>>Passive Power: Undeath.  Whenever the Golgari take damage, give them a 1/1 zombie token after resolving the damage.  As long as any of these zombies exist, the Golgari can't go below 1 life.
>>>Dominance: The Dead Walk.  A Golgari Guildmage may Strike Through the zombie horde.  Each zombie in it then deals 1 damage to target guild (All zombies target the same guild)
>>>Endgame: Scavange.  Golgari guildmages may continue to use their guild's special powers.  Each time they putrefy, add a zomby to the tally.  Zombies may be struck through as though the Golgari were dominant.  If no golgari-aligned players remain, remove the golgari, all , and all zombies from the tally.

Gruul
>>>Special Action: Bloodrush.  A Gruul member may skip his or her entire turn to create a 3/3 Beast token if one does not already exist or give the current beast +2/+1 permanently.  Whenever a Gruul member attacks, if the beast is alive and not struck through, strike through the beast and it attacks that member's target.
>>>Passive Power: Clan Vengeance.  If the Gruul take more than 1 damage from any source, their beast attacks that source.
>>>Dominance: Rauck-Chauv. While the Gruul are dominant, any member of any guild may spend his or her attack to remove any symbol from any guild.
>>>Endgame: The Old Ways.  For the rest of the game, remove symbols at the end of each day, after resolving their effects, if any

Boros
>>>Special Action: Battalion.  A member of the Boros may skip his or her entire move and bold a guild that is not already bold.  That guild takes 2 damage and the boros gain 2 life.
>>>Passive Power: Discipline.  If a Boros Guildmage would skip his or her entire turn for any reason other than activating Battalion, he or she skips only his or her attack or reinforcement instead of both.
>>>Dominance: Crackdown.  While the Boros are dominant, no other guild is dominant.
>>>Endgame: Riots.  For the rest of the game, all guilds lose 1 life at the start of each day and the Gateless Rebels, if they exist, gain half that much life, rounded up.

Selesnya
>>>Special Action: Bounty of the Worldsoul.  A Selesnya guildmage may skip his or her reinforcement to choose a guild that is not already bold.  Make that guild bold and both it and the Selesnya gain 2 life
>>>Passive Power: Populate.  At the start of each day, the Selesnya get a saproling token, then get an additional saproling token for each other type of token on the tally.  While any saprolings live, the Selesnya cannot be attacked.
>>>Dominance: Song of the Worldsoul.  While the Selesnya are dominant, all guilds are the Selesnya but retain their own Dominance abilities and Endgames. (Members of any guild have Bounty of the Worldsoul instead of their special action and Populate instead of their passive power.  Saprolings not belonging to the Selesnya don't count as a separate type of token for Populate and should be recorded next to the owning guild.)
>>>Endgame: Scattered seeds.  The Gateless Rebels gain 2 life whenever they reinforce instead of one.

Simic
>>>Special Action: Evolve.  A Simic guildmage can skip his attack or reinforcement to put a on the tally, or both to add 2.  A simic guildmage may remove X to do one of the following: Gain X life, Remove X/2 symbols from the Simic, or create an X/X Mutant token (replacing any previous mutatnt).  The mutant may be Struck Through to direct it to attack any target.
>>>Passive Power: Steady Progress.  The Simic gain 2 at the start of every day.
>>>Dominance: Ultimate Fusion.  While Dominant, the Simic have the Special Actions and Passive Powers of all living guilds.
>>>Endgame: Wild Monsters.  When the Simic are defeated, for each guild create an X/X Mutant, where X is equal to the selected guild's life total, divided by ten and rounded down.  at the end of each day, each mutant attacks the guild it is attached to.

Gateless Rebels
The Gateless Rebels do not start in play.  Rather, when the third guild is defeated, the Gateless Rebels are initialized with life equal to the life total of the guild with the second highest life.  The Gateless are not considered for the purpose of Dominance.  If the Gateless have no members, they can't be attacked or targeted in any way, otherwise they are effected just like a guild.
The Gateless Rebels have no special powers, but gain them as Endgames occur.
If the Gateless Rebels are defeated, they re-appear the next time a guild is defeated, with starting life equal to the life of the guild that has the second most, unless there are two or fewer guilds remaining after a guild is removed, in which case the Gateless have been truly defeated.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

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THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Szat's Proposal, Glossary


Text Effects:
Bold: Created by freeing yourself from Detain or Extort, or when targeted by Battalion or Bounty of the Worldsoul.  Prevents Detain, Extort, Battalion, and Bounty of the Worldsoul.  Removed at the start of each day.

Italic: Created by Tax to Death, Putrefy, and Utter Secrecy.  Prevents Tax to Death and Putrefy and foils Utter Secrecy.  Removed at the start of each day.

"Symbols":
: Guild is detained and can't act except to counter being detained
$: The guild is being extorted, and at the end of the day will lose 1 life while the Orzhov gain 1 life.
: The Dimir are building up to an assassination.
: The Dimir have an assassination avaliable.
(Guildname): The Dimir have Guildname encoded.
: An Out-of-Control Experiment is taking place, and will explode at the end of the day.
: Guild is putrefied and can't gain life.
: Simic 'Evolve' Resource.


Tokens:
Zombies (X): the Golgari have Zombies that they might be albe to send to attack and that must be killed before the Golgari are declared defeated
Saprolings (X): The Selesnya have Saprolings that must be killed before the Selesnya can be attacked.  On a particular guild's line, that guild has Saprolings with the same rule.
Beast (X/Y): The Gruul have a beast that will attack with them once each day.
Mutant (X/Y): The Simic have a Mutant they can control.  On a given guild's line, the mutant will instead attack that guild at the start of each day.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

Follow me to No Goblins Allowed

A M:tG/D&D message board with a good community and usable software

 


THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

First impressions: I like the idea of the endgame abilities. I also like the new Gateless faction mechanic.

I don't like that there are 41 abilities, some of which are very complex.

I also am not sure I like Dominant abilities. They always struck me as problematicly Win Moreish, even in their previous implementations.

Of the new abilities, I think I like Gruul the best. I like Detain the least. I don't like the "skip a turn to remove this symbol" mechanic very much. Any of the abilities that affect the Gateless are very cool.

My take: pare everything down by maybe two abilities for each guild. Ditch the dominance mechanic, ditch the bold mechanic. The most interesting thing here is the Gateless mechanic, which forces a clock on the game in the same way that the Nephilim in GWI did, and really captures the flavor of the current state of the plane. Really, this is a great innovation. I think whatever version we go with, that idea should carry over.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
GUILDWARS: THE DRAGON'S MAZE v. 0.2
0.2

There are 10 factions in the new guildwars game.  Individuals may join any one of them at the outset of the game, or when joining the game later.  Once you select a guild, you're in it for the life of the guild.  There is an 11th faction, the Gateless Rebels, that does not exist when the game starts.

When your guild is defeated (unless you were Golgari) your full move consists of a single basic attack with none of the perks of your old guild.  You may, however, join any other guild (even if you are Golgari) or the Gateless Rebels once they exist.  Members of the Gateless may NEVER join another guild.

A basic move for members of any faction consists of an attack and a reinforcement.  Any move must cover both actions to be considered valid.  one's "entire turn" refers to both the attack and the reinforcement.  One may attack any guild but only reinforce one's own

Text effects (Bold, Italic, Underline, Strikethrough, et cetera) are removed from the tally at the start of each day.  Symbols remain until one is instructed to remove them.

Tokens that are added to the tally are added under the main guilds.  Tokens come in two types: small tokens whose numbers are counted (1/1), and big tokens with power/toughness is tracked individually.  Attacking a group of small tokens kills one small token per "hit" of the attack, regardless of how much damage each "hit" does -- unless you could target multiple entities sepratley, you can't kill more than one small token at a time.  Damaging a large token reduces its toughness by an amount equal to the damage dealt.

Each faction has one or two abilities and an Endgame that triggers when they are eliminated.

Azorious
>>>Special Action: Detain.  An Azorious guildmember may skip his or her attack to detain a guild:  put a next to the detained guild.  Members of detained guilds cannot attack the Azorius.  Remove all from a guild if the Azorius damages that guild.  The Gateless Rebels cannot be detained.
>>>Endgame: Lawlessness.  Attacks from Gateless Rebels now cause 2 damage instead of one

Orzhov
>>>Special Action: Extort.  An Orzhov player may skip his or her entire move to place a '$' Symbol next to any guild that does not already have one..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">.  at the end of each day, each guild with an '$' loses one life and the Orzhov gain one life.  Only 3 $ may exist at a time: to add a new $ when 3 are out, the Orzhov guildmage must choose a current $ and remove it.  $ is also removed if the Orzhov damage the victim guild in any other way.  The Gateless Rebels cannot be extorted.
>>>Passive Power: Tax to Death.  When the attack of an Orzhov guildmage reduces a non-Bold guild's life to a multiple of 5, they may bold that guild and gain 1 life.
>>>Endgame: Financial Collapse.   All guilds lose 5 life the instant the Orzhov are defeated, and for the rest of that day and the whole of the following day, no guild abilities function other than Endgames.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Dimir
>>>Special Action: Assassination.  A dimir player may skip his or her attack to put a next to the Dimir.  When the Dimir have 5 , remove them and put an next to the dimir instead.  A dimir player may, without spending an action, remove any number of from the dimir.  For each removed, the Dimir deal 7 damage divided as the removing player chooses among any number of targets.
>>>Passive Power: Cipher.  when a Dimir guildmage damages a guild with a basic attack, the attacking player may Encode the dimir with that guild (put that guild's name in parentheses next to the Dimir's life on the tally -- treat this as a symbol).  As long as the Dimir have an encoded guild, they can use that guild's special action. Replace all instances of the owning guild's name in instant effects with "Dimir" (but lingering effects such as extort still refer to their owning guild).  The Dimir may only have one guild encoded at a time.  If a Dimir Guildmage wishes to encode a new guild, it replaces the old one.
>>>Endgame: Freedom of Information.  Members of the Gateless Rebels get two moves instead of one for the rest of the game.

Izzet
>>>Special Action: Out-of Control Experiment.  Members of the Izzet may skip their attack to put a next to target guild.  A member of the targeted guild may spend his or her whole turn to remove the .  At the end of the day, remove all and each deals damage to the guild it was removed from equal to the total number of removed (So if two were on the orzhov and one on the gruul, the orzhov take 6 damage and the gruul take 3.  If there was also one on the dimir, the orzhov would take 8 and the dimir and gruul 4 each)
>>>Endgame: Overload. When the Izzet are defeated, put next to every living guild. (Do not place next to the Gateless Rebels if they exist)

Rakdos
>>>Special Action: Unleash.  Members of the Rakdos may skip their reinforcement to deal 2 damage to target guild.
>>>Endgame: Release the Guests!  If the Gateless Rebels exist, they immediatley gain 5 life. Otherwise, all guilds gain 5 life and the Gateless Rebels will start with 10 extra life.

Golgari
>>>Special action: Putrefy.  A Golgari Guildmage may skip his or her attack to put a next to a guild.  Guilds with next to them can't gain life.  When the Golgari damage a guild with next to it, remove the .  Also remove at the end of each day.
>>>Passive Power: Undeath.  Whenever the Golgari take damage, give them a 1/1 zombie token after resolving the damage.  As long as any of these zombies exist, the Golgari can't go below 1 life.  A Golgari Guildmage may Strike Through the zombie horde in addition to his or her normal move.  Each zombie in it then deals 1 damage to target guild (All zombies target the same guild; the Gateless are a valid target for this ability)
>>>Endgame: Scavange.  Golgari guildmages may continue to use their guild's special powers.  Each time they putrefy, add a zomby to the tally.  If no golgari-aligned players remain, remove the golgari and all zombies from the tally.

Gruul
>>>Special Action: Bloodrush.  A Gruul member may skip his or her entire turn to create a 3/3 Beast token if one does not already exist or give the current beast +2/+1 permanently.  Whenever a Gruul member attacks, if the beast is alive and not struck through, strike through the beast and it attacks that member's target.
>>>Passive Power: Clan Vengeance.  If the Gruul take more than 1 damage from any source other than their own beast token, their beast attacks that source.
>>>Endgame: Rage Against Society.  The Gateless Rebels gain control of the Gruul beast if it is alive  If its toughness is less than 3, its toughness increases to 3.  If there is no beast, a 3/3 beast is generated for the Gateless.  If the Gateless are not in the game, the Gruul beast or a new beast is given to them when they appear.  Beasts controlled by the Gateless are subject to the same targeting restrictions as the Gateless.

Boros
>>>Special Action: Battalion.  A member of the Boros may skip his or her entire move and bold a guild that is not already bold.  That guild takes 2 damage and the boros gain 2 life.
>>>Endgame: Riots.  For the rest of the game, all guilds lose 1 life at the start of each day and the Gateless Rebels, if they exist, gain half that much life, rounded up.

Selesnya
>>>Special Action: Bounty of the Worldsoul.  A Selesnya guildmage may skip his or her reinforcement to choose a guild other than the Selesnya.  Both it and the Selesnya gain 2 life
>>>Passive Power: Populate.  At the start of each day, the Selesnya get a saproling token, then get an additional saproling token for each other type of token on the tally.  While any saprolings live, the Selesnya cannot be attacked.
>>>Endgame: Scattered seeds.  The Gateless Rebels gain 2 life whenever they reinforce instead of one.

Simic
>>>Special Action: Evolve.  A Simic guildmage can skip his attack or reinforcement to put a on the tally, or both to add 2.  A simic guildmage may remove X to do one of the following: Gain X life, or create an X/X Mutant token (replacing any previous mutatnt).  The mutant may be Struck Through to direct it to attack any target.  A simic guildmage can do only one of spending for life, spending to make a mutant, and using the mutant each day.
>>>Passive Power: Steady Progress.  The Simic gain 2 at the start of every day.
>>>Endgame: Wild Monsters.  When the Simic are defeated, for each guild create an X/X Mutant, where X is equal to the selected guild's life total, divided by ten and rounded down.  at the end of each day, each mutant attacks the guild it is attached to. (The Gateless are not targeted by a Mutant this way)

Gateless Rebels
The Gateless Rebels do not start in play.  Rather, when the third guild is defeated, the Gateless Rebels are initialized with life equal to the life total of the guild with the second highest life.  The Gateless are not considered for the purpose of Dominance.  If the Gateless have no members, they can't be attacked or targeted in any way, otherwise they are effected just like a guild.
The Gateless Rebels have no special powers, but gain them as Endgames occur.
If the Gateless Rebels are defeated, they re-appear the next time a guild is defeated, with starting life equal to the life of the guild that has the second most, unless there are two or fewer guilds remaining after a guild is removed, in which case the Gateless have been truly defeated.

Changes

> Dominance is gone
> Bold is used as the standard "Has been messed with this turn" effect.  Yes, multiple sources of Bold interfere with eachother.
> Some guilds don't have passive powers.
> Most "Spend your turn to remove this" abilities were removed, but the Izzet version remained.
> Detain was completley reworked.
> The Izzet endgame was renamed 'Overload' to keep all ten guild mechanics represented.
> A few other abilities were tinkered with to play well with others.

Confusions


Azorious, Detain: The detained guild can still use abilities that are harmful to the Azorious.

Dimir, Assassinate: The Dimir can build up as many as they please.

Dimir, Cipher: The full function of Cipher abilities is as follows.
> If the Dimir detain a guild, it stops that guild from attacking the Azorious. 
> If they Extort a guild the Orzhov will gain the life. 
> caused by the Dimir are still removed when the Golgari attack the victim. 
> A beast created by Dimir Bloodrush belongs to the Gruul, but Dimir with Bloodrush will Strike Through the Gruul beast if they make a basic attack (even one against the Gruul!  The beast won't retalliate against itself.)
> Should the Dimir make a Battalion attack, the Dimir gain 2 life.
> To trigger Bounty of the Worldsoul, the Dimir choose a guild other than themselves.  They and the chosen guild each gain 2 life.
> the Dimir can use as well as generate it -- if they create a mutant, the Simic own it but if they pick the Gain Life mode the Dimir gain the life.
> Out-of-Control Experiment and Unleash don't care what guild controls them.

Izzet, Out-of-Control Experiment: This is spelled out in the ability itself, but it's worth confirming that yes, EACH symbol deals damage for each symbol: the total damage of the experiment is geometric; if there are 4 on a guild when day ends and none elsewhere, that guild will take a whopping 16 damage.  This is why the ability to remove was left in.

Izzet, Overload: These can be removed just like the ones from Out-of-Control Experiment.  They're also resolved the exact same way at the end of the day, including stacking with any lingering from Izzet or Dimir.  Yes, that DOES mean that if the izzet are first out and nobody removes any , everybody takes 36.

Rakdos: I love the Rakdos.  So simple.

Golgari: spelled out very pedantically in the text.

Gruul, Clan Vengeance: The beast retalliates even if Struck Through.  If the Grull get blown up by an Out-of-Control Experiment, it will retalliate on the Izzet, even if the Dimir put the only on the Gruul (It's not bright enough to notice that, and there's no indication of a symbol's source so... memory issue to avert).  It IS bright enough to retalliate specifically against tokens, though, and will happily punch a mutant or a zombie out of the horde (only one zombie will die to the beast in that case)

Gruul, Rage Against Society: The Gateless Beast functions according to Bloodrush rules, but the Gateless can't increase its p/t

Boros, Riots: The Gateless don't take 1 damage then gain life, they just gain the life.  If they aren't up yet, unlike with the Rakdos Endgame, no life is stored for the Gateless; the Guilds just take their damage.

Selesnya, Bounty of the Worldsoul: The bold effect was removed from this ability: the selesnya can 'buddy up' with another guild and share the wealth multiple times.  Yikes!

Selesnya, Populate: The selesnya gain at most 4 Saprolings a day; their default 1, and one each for one or more Beasts, Zombies, or Mutants existing.

Simic, Evolve: It doesn't cost an attack or reinforce to spend or use the mutant.

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THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Chief Praetor
Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill)
Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill)
Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills)
Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills)
Round 6: (8-7-1)

Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Here is what I cooked up earlier.


I tinkered with them after reading about the idea of introducing the Gateless as a faction. Hopefully I didn't screw things up too badly when adjusting. I included endgames, as I had hoped to do, but left out dominant abilities, because, as previously noted, they were kinda screwy last game (okay, they were very screwy).


Rules

Basics:


a. A move consists of two standard actions - a reinforcement, which increases the guild's life total by 1, and an attack, which deals 1 damage to a guild of the attacker's choice. Depending on the guild to which a player belongs, these actions can be substitued for different actions, or modified to a different extent when a condition is met. A player determines his guild when joining the game. Once a player allies with a guild, he cannot switch his faction until his guild has been defeated, at which point he is free to join up with a faction still in the game.


b. Abilities occur at different intervals. When identifying the order in which abilities trigger, refer to the following:


* Abilities that trigger at the beginning of the day are prioritized in descending order: Azorius --------> Simic.


* Abilities that trigger at the end of the day are prioritized in ascending order: Simic --------> Azorius


c. Markers disappear at the end of the day unless specified otherwise. The same applies for name modifications created by specific abilities - namely bolding, underlining, and italicizing.


d. Tokens are treated as distinct entities. A guildmage whose guild currently controls a token may forfeit his reinforcement to increase one token's toughness by 1, and/or forfeit his regular attack to instead attack with one token. If someone performs an attack with a token, that player is to strike through that token to indicate it has attacked for the day (striking through is undone at the beginning of the new day). Tokens are to be tracked separately from the life totals of the remaining guilds.


Guild Abilities

Azorius Senate


a. Detain - Whenever an Azorius guildmage reduces the life total of another guild to a multiple of 5, he may bold that guild's name. For the rest of the day, guildmages belonging to that guild must forfeit either their standard reinforcement or their standard attack when making a move.


b. Fall of the Gavel - At the end of the day, each guild that attacked Azorius that day loses 2 life.


c. Supreme Verdict - When the Azorius Senate is defeated, each guild loses X life and each token takes X damage, where X is the number of remaining guilds. Members of the Gateless faction gain an additional standard attack (which comes into effect whenever the Gateless enter the game).


Orzhov Syndicate


a. Extort - An Orzhov guildmage may skip his turn to place a  marker next to another guild. Whenever that guild gains life, increase Orzhov's life total by 1 for each marker adjacent to its name. A guildmage belonging to that guild may, as a free action on his turn, pay 3 life to remove one marker.


b. Purge the Profane - At the beginning of each day, each guild with a life total higher than Orzhov's life total loses 2 life. If at least two other guilds lose life this way, Orzhov gains 2 life.


c. Merciless Eviction - When the Orzhov Syndicate is defeated, each other guild loses life equal to twice the value of the tens-digit of that guild's life total. If it exists, the Gateless faction gains life equal to the highest amount lost this way.


House Dimir


a. Cipher - A Dimir guildmage may skip his turn to place a  next to a guild's name. At the end of the day, each guild with a next to its name loses 3 life. Dimir then gains control of one X/X Horror token, where X is the number of markers removed from the guilds. A guild cannot have more than one marker next to its name.


b. Mind Grind - A Dimir guildmage may skip his standard attack to perform an attack with a token of his choice. That token cannot attack the guild that owns it, but may attack other tokens under the control of the same guild. The token then takes 1 damage. 


c. Whispering Madness - When House Dimir is defeated, at the end of each day, each guild loses 2 life. The guilds with the highest and lowest life totals instead lose 4 life.


Izzet League


a. Overload - At the end of each day, each guild adjacent to Izzet loses 1 life and Izzet adds a marker to its tally. An Izzet guildmage may, as a free action on his turn, sacrifice 4 markers to gain control of a 4/4 Golem token. 


b. Counterflux - An Izzet guildmage may skip his turn in order to gain control of a 2/1 Weird token. Whenever a Weird token is destroyed, it deals 3 damage to the guild responsible for its destruction.


c. Epic Experiment - When the Izzet League is destroyed, at the beginning of each day, put a marker next to each remaining guild. These do not disappear at the end of the day. Whenever a guild reaches 5 markers, remove them. That guild loses 12 life. markers are not placed next to the Gateless faction.


Cult of Rakdos


a. Unleash - A Rakdos guildmage may skip his reinforcement in order to perform an additional attack. This attack deals 3 damage, but must target a different guild/token than the one damaged by the guildmage's standard attack.


b. Dreadbore - Whenever a Rakdos guildmage attacks a token, deal 1 damage to another token controlled by the same guild and 1 damage to a token controlled by a different guild. Rakdos gains 2 life for each token destroyed this way.


c. Havoc Festival - When the Cult of Rakdos is defeated, at the beginning of each day, each remaining guild loses 1 life. If it exists, the Gateless faction then gains life equal to the amount lost this way.


Golgari Swarm


a. Scavenge - Whenever a Golgari guildmage reduces the life total of another guild to a multiple of 10, he may italicize that guild's name. If he does, Golgari's life increases by 2.


b. Rites of Reaping - Whenever Golgari is attacked, the Swarm gains control of a 1/1 Zombie token. At the end of each even-numbered day, the guild that last dealt damage to Golgari loses X life, where X is the number of Zombie tokens Golgari controls.


c. Abrupt Decay - When the Golgari Swarm is defeated, destroy all tokens. Each guild loses X life, where X is the number of tokens destroyed this way. If there are no tokens in play at the time of Golgari's defeat, each guild loses 1 life.


Gruul Clans


a. Bloodrush - Whenever a Gruul guildmage reduces the life total of another guild to a multiple of 5, he may underline that guild's name. For the rest of the day, attacks made against that guild deal an additional 1 damage.


b. Primal Visitation - At the end of each odd-numbered day, Gruul gains control of a 3/3 Beast token. The first guild to attack Gruul each day loses life equal to the number of Beast tokens Gruul controls.


c. Clan Defiance - When the Gruul Clans are defeated, guilds can no longer be reinforced more than once in the same day. Whenever a guild reinforces, denote this by placing a  marker next to that guild's name. This does not apply to the Gateless faction.


Boros Legion


a. Battalion - Attacks made by Boros deal 3 damage instead of 1 if at least two other players have attacked the same target as Boros earlier that day.


b. Assemble the Legion - A Boros guildmage may skip his turn in order to gain control of a 2/2 Soldier token. At the end of each day, Boros gains life equal to the number of Soldier tokens it controls.


c. Martial Glory - When the Boros Legion is defeated, standard attacks now deal 2 damage instead of 1. This applies to both the remaining guilds and the Gateless faction.


Selesnya Conclave


b. Populate - A Selesnya guildmage may skip his attack in order to perform an additional reinforcement. This reinforcement increases Selesnya's life total by 3. Alternatively, a Selesnya guildmage may choose to split the life gain and donate 1 or 2 life to a guild of his choice.


b. Call of the Conclave - At the beginning of the day, Selesnya gains control of X 1/1 Saproling tokens, where X is the ones-digit of that day. A Selesnya guildmage may skip his standard reinforcement to sacrifice any number of Saproling tokens; Selesnya gains life equal to the number of Saproling tokens sacrificed this way.


c. Collective Blessing - When the Selesnya Conclave is defeated, each remaining guild gains 5 life. Members of the Gateless faction gain an additional standard reinforcement (which comes into effect whenever the Gateless enter the game).


Simic Combine


a. Evolve - At the beginning of the day, Simic gains 1 life for each guild with a higher life total than Simic's.


b. Mystic Genesis - A Simic guildmage may skip his standard reinforcement and pay X life to create one X/X Ooze token, where X is a value between 1-5, as per the desires of the guildmage. At the beginning of each day, all Ooze tokens controlled by Simic gain +1/+1.


c. Urban Evolution - When the Simic Combine is defeated, put a X/Y Krasis token into play, where X is the number of remaining guilds and Y is twice the number of remaining guilds. At the beginning of each day, starting from the guild at the top of the remaining line-up, the Krasis token deals damage equal to its power to that guild. The Krasis token ignores the Gateless faction when determining its victim.

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Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
I'm liking this a lot now that it's pared down. Even if the abilities shift (I'm sure they will) I think this is a good structure for this game. And the variable number of abilities (some getting passives others not) means that we can more easily fiddle with some of the balance issues in other games.

One thing that comes to mind is the Rakdos. That ability (the Jund ability) has consistently underperformed from what I've seen. Without a way to defend, it's often unable to keep up with either more powerful damage dealing abilities that don't trigger up front (like the Dimir) and the kind of high-powered life gain of Selesnya style defensive abilities.

We might want to think about either raising the damage dealt, or giving them a passive ability. Raising the damage might be preferable since it would keep the Rakdos simple, and we could use a few really simple guilds.
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It started off as a regular schedule, but then people stopped posting regularly, and I didn't want to kick them, so it stopped being a regular schedule, and then you and morg didn't post or reply to my PMs and then it became no schedule and that's about when the game died.



Do you think skipping people's turns and just making them immobile is a valid solution to this problem?


LordM! How have you been? Man, it's great to know you've been lurking around.

Thanks. I couldn't help myself when I saw you were creating a new Guild Wars.


I'm sorry, but what was the endgame there? All I remember/see was Rakdos's defeat ability which slowly destroyed territories. Is that what you mean, or is there something I'm missing?

Yeah, I can't remember all of them, but Rakdos had an ability where the demon himself ate blocks, Simic had one where a Kraj went hunting for occupied territories, and I think Golgari had some sort of daily life drain. I'm foggy, but I liked the concept, and I did my best to put something similar in here. The idea of adding a Gateless faction caught my eye so I went back and tinkered with endgames where I thought appropriate.
My Sig
Reality is but the sum total of all illusions. Proud Hand of Karsus, now and forever Mess with one Hand, mess with 'em all I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
"just do what LM the lord of magical might does, and you'll be fine" - sfdragon, 10/12/09
Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
sblocked for space reasons.
In response to:
Catotheyounger:

What would you be trying to accomplish with the changes?  If you tell me I can suggest a few changes.


To start with, a potentially unlimeted group size. Also, the ability for the players themselves to update, rather than waiting for a DM.

Also, here's how I represent the board:
pastebin.com/tyJLxqb7
I use upper case letters surrounded by asterisks (*O* for Orzhov) to denote the locations of guildmages and lower case letters to show territory (#s are neutral territory).  In games with both gruul and golgari, I'd use U to represent gruul, and in games with both simic and selesnya, I'd use E to represent selesnya.

I also write a line for each player below the board with information about them.
(username), (guild) guildmage:  life/mana actions
example:
cato, izzet guildmage:  14/3, made a basic attack hitting 42 the Azorius guildmage.

I usually update the game in the following order:
1:  Go through every pm I've received, move their characters, and update their actions taken
2:  Go through the actions and make appropriate changes to life/mana
3:  Update territory control
4:  Give a life point to everyone who didn't take damage this turn, and restore mana based on territory.  For counting territory, try pressing ctrl+f and then entering the letter of the guild you're searching for.  This will highlight every one of that letter.

It took like 20 minutes to update the board when I had 5 people, so if you relax the schedule and update the game once every few days it shouldn't be that much work.



It started off as a regular schedule, but then people stopped posting regularly, and I didn't want to kick them, so it stopped being a regular schedule, and then you and morg didn't post or reply to my PMs and then it became no schedule and that's about when the game died.



Do you think skipping people's turns and just making them immobile is a valid solution to this problem?


I hate to say it, but that's problem #2 right there. It doesn't matter how long it really takes to update if either A)the DM misses a day (as happened when you got tempbanned); or B)everyone else has to wait for that one straggler who waits until the last minute or forgets to move entirely.

The dual changes I would like to implement means one other thing:
Drop the grid... it's a right mess: tally screwups were endemic in old guildwars games, but relativley easy to fix.  Mistakes with a grid, like the chronic loss of bold/colors, would get insane to try to trace.





infinight



How about a grid game with walls, since it's supposed to be a maze? Each of the bolded areas below is a wall with 6 health that can be attacked normally and cannot otherwise be passed. Just an example:

 

[06][00][00][00][00][06][00][00][00][00][06][00][00][00][00][06][00][00][00][00]
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Each guild starts with 5 territories (with 2 health each) and a guildgate. A guild loses when all of their territories are destroyed. Each guildmage may heal one of their territories and hurt an enemy's territory each day. Whenever a guildmage attacks an unoccupied territory, it gains 2 strengths and that guild gains control of it. Captured territories are color-coded to indicate their controller. Each guild has 2 abilities, one is constant and the other comes from the guildgate. Guildgates act like other territories, but only have 1 strength and is captured instantly upon being attacked. If the Dimir attacked the Izzet Guildgate for example, the Izzet would lose their gate ability and the Dimir would gain it.

All guilds have the following ability.
 
Construction: Choose 1 - Put a 04 wall on an unoccupied adjacent territory; Or target territory you control gains 4 strength and becomes a wall. (using this ability to sabotage your guild will result in being banned from the game).


Some guild can interact with walls in different ways. 3 abilities that I've thought of so far are:

Decompose: Whenever a Golgari Guildmage attacks a wall, that wall takes 1 extra damage and the territory it was attacked from heal 1.

Infiltrate: Dimir can attack occupied areas in a straight horizontal or vertical line through any number of walls.

Rampage: Gruul can capture walls as if they were unoccupied territories.


Interesting, but it's lacking a few things. For one thing, why play as any guild other than the Golgari, Dimir, or Gruul if they don't have any other abilities? Also, what does destroying walls have to do with a maze, and other than the title "Dragon's Maze," what correlation does a maze even have with the set as a whole? I'm afraid that I'm also fighting against any grid systems. They've been tried and failed more than once.


Keeper


42, I think your numbers are off. 2 abilities per guild is already 20 abilites. Ten guilds, remember? Or am I missing something?

You could keep the endgame abilities secret if you wanted to keep the game from feeling frontloaded... that's an option.


Oops, you're right. For some reason, I've got in my head "3 abilities x 5 factions," even when I specifically said 3 abilities and 10 guilds. So, I'd like to keep the game at 30 abilities, give or take a few.\

Actually, the hidden endgame abilities are something I was playing with for the M13 game I made. Inspired by the Conflux game, which did the same thing, and MaRo's article "10 things every game needs," where he says games need surprises. Something the players don't know is coming, or even if they do, be something mysterious until the reveal.


bay_falconer

How about the gamemaster make a maze, put everyone in it, and there's a treasure at the some unknown point (that everyone can theoretically get to, and as close to equidistant from all 10 starting points).

Nobody but the gamemaster (who isn't an actual player) knows the maze.

Of course, there's the question of hidden information.


That... sounds like an interesting idea. I mean that. I'd love to work in true hidden movements to a game in the future. But not here. I want this game to be as inclusive as Guildwarsian possible, and a DM is something else I'm trying to avoid.


Besides, why take such a traditional game mechanic (Dungeon Mastering ala D&D) and adapting it, when you can create something that utilizes the basic form and function of the forums?

True, the whole "tally" ordeal is a hassle instituted just to keep track of the game's standings, but a necessary evil. The original idea for these games was "voting game with flavor," although through their iterations, they have definitely taken on a life of their own (another reason I that believe their popularity has decreased over the iterations).


Second post incoming to tackle the huge posts with entire game creactions.

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

It started off as a regular schedule, but then people stopped posting regularly, and I didn't want to kick them, so it stopped being a regular schedule, and then you and morg didn't post or reply to my PMs and then it became no schedule and that's about when the game died.



Do you think skipping people's turns and just making them immobile is a valid solution to this problem?



I guess that could work.

EDIT:  those are valid points, and I guess this game might be a bit too high-maintenance for what you're trying to do.  I do, however, think that the following elements could be incorporated into whatever game you end up deciding on with minimal effort:
1:  Resources which can be negotiated over:  in my game, it was territory, but it can be anything.  Basically, something that grants you an advantage, which the players must either negotiate over or take by force.
2:  Things to do other than combat:   capturing territory was an example of one such thing.  This helps the diplomacy aspect, because while combat is still profitable if successful, you can advance your position without resorting to violence.  It also provides an more gameplay options for the players.
3:  Victory as a mechanic:  this is a major factor in encouraging diplomacy, and also in decreasing the violence level and pace of the game, which I really liked about my game.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl


Here is what I cooked up earlier.

I tinkered with them after reading about the idea of introducing the Gateless as a faction. Hopefully I didn't screw things up too badly when adjusting. I included endgames, as I had hoped to do, but left out dominant abilities, because, as previously noted, they were kinda screwy last game (okay, they were very screwy).

[snip...]


From my memories of the game, most everyone was content for large portions of the game to let the Boros be dominant (usually the ones surrounding Boros were the ones complaining, IIRC).

One thing Skibo did right, though, was NOVELTY. He never used a major game mechanic twice (well, almost never). Note that I'm not counting endgame mechanics like the Nephilim, as 9 out of 10 games had some form of "after day X, each faction loses 2 life every day."

Would anyone like a list of these major mechanics? I have... * does a count* 18 of Skibo's games (which includes his GWIV beta); then add GWII (by lMarcusl), Yanmato an my M12 game, Tevish's "Creating: Innistrad (beautiful mechanical idea, btw. Needs to be completed and done some day), and finally my M13 game (untested).

First impressions: I like the idea of the endgame abilities. I also like the new Gateless faction mechanic.


Me, too. The Gateless faction is a really cool and flavorful idea to implement. They kind of scare me though. I feel the Endgame abilities (which I feel could use a slightly better name than "Endgame." Maybe something like "Disbanding" or... something with the word "fall.") give the Gateless a bit too much power. Now, I know this needs testing in a beta, but from a glance it seems that mor often than not, the Gateless would win.

I also am not sure I like Dominant abilities. They always struck me as problematicly Win Moreish, even in their previous implementations.


Like I said up there, we need NOVELTY. That means ditching Dominant for something new, and hopefully flavorful. Man, Tevish, you have a GODLY track record for resonant game mechanics. Just between Corruption and Gateless, you are something else.

One thing that comes to mind is the Rakdos. That ability (the Jund ability) has consistently underperformed from what I've seen. Without a way to defend, it's often unable to keep up with either more powerful damage dealing abilities that don't trigger up front (like the Dimir) and the kind of high-powered life gain of Selesnya style defensive abilities.


One reason I believe the Jund ability (when you have to target 2 separate guilds) is consistently underpowered is because not every faction is given a 1-to-1 ability. The Esper ability (Tevish's Tax to Death here) is +1 under certain circumstances, but it's still +1. Jund and Naya (/defense+attack and /attack+defense respectively) are each +/-0, although lifegain has always been more important in these games. The only time that hasn't been true is in Shadowmoor: Cruel Times, where A)there was NO lifegain; and B)Giants won for having the scariest reaction ability.

We might want to think about either raising the damage dealt, or giving them a passive ability. Raising the damage might be preferable since it would keep the Rakdos simple, and we could use a few really simple guilds.


LordM's suggestion is good for this: having the extra attack deal 2 or 3 damage would make it worth while, but I have a comment: We need to make sure the game moves along on its own. I was implementing bonus attacks in my M13 game because all my standard abilities were 1-for-1; and I find that alot of abilities are usually either 1-for-1 or +1 over time. The quick look I took of Tevish and LordM's games seems okay as they are, I see more life loss abilities than life gain. Just throwing it out htere.

@LordM: Good start, but I feel you are a bit off flavor with a number of the abilities. Particularly Overload and Cipher. I really hate to not give any more than that, but it's really late and I haven't read it closely and I'm tired and I'm having a flashback to when I first joined the forums.


God these posts take me for freaking ever to write.

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

Would you care to read my above post?

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
EDIT: TO EVERYONE: IT TAKES ME AT LEAST HALF AN HOUR TO WRITE A POST. PLEASE LEAVE ME TIME IF YOU NINJA ME BETWEEN TWO PLANNED POSTS.


You just had to be sneaking in here, dinja? Right when I was ready to head off to bed.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Anyways, I'd like to give some reasons why my game should be run:
1:  Victory is a mechanic:  this isn't just a game of crush everyone else, you win.  The ability to negotiate a truce, or pretend to negotiate a truce then stab on of your partners in the back, adds what I think is an interesting element to the game.


Victory is... a mechanic? Is my half-asleep brain missing something? How do you...?

2:  Diplomacy:  diplomacy plays a huge role in the game.  And it's not just simplistic diplomacy like "hey you wanna be friends?"  You can make an alliance that lasts a turn or the entire game, or you can make a non-aggression treaty that doesn't involve cooperation at all, and none of the agreements are binding at all, and moves are kept secret until they're made, so while you're negotiating, you have to make sure that your "allies" aren't in a position to stab you in the back, and, perhaps more importantly, that you are.  I specifically designed some skills, especially passives, to affect diplomacy.  Dimir's passive is the most obvious example, although orzhov and selesnya's passives are also applicable, and Golgari's passive can create a public enemy #1 to encourage cooperation.


Ohoho, you weren't here for GWIII. I personally was responsible for our downfall by stabbing previous allies in the back over a deal with the Orzhov (I was Izzet and our allies at the time was the Golgari). And Omega137 (an Orzhov) was a major PM'er in the game. Shadowy dealing abound in these Guildwars games, no matter what.

Not to dismiss your argument. I just can't bring myself to process it right now and wanted to remenisce.

3:  Non-linear gameplay:  there are so many ways to play the game.  You can either go aggressive and try to kill off another player, or carve out a good chunk of territory and try to negotiate or use your large supply of mana to crush opponents, or you can try to negotiate for a peaceful endgame, or you can form an alliance to crush all opposition, which may result in a massive epic teamfight or disintegrate because of internal strife.


TL;DR:  this game is like D&D:  it's more than just a linear fight to the death, it's subtle, has multiple paths to victory, and can be played however the players want it to be.


But that's just it. I'd like to avoid D&D style gameplay because we have such a different format going on here by being on a froum.

However, you just gave me an idea. Monopoly-style gameplay where guilds trade territory and sneak into one another's territory and share thiers with others and steal it from allies in backstabbings and

I'm going to shut up before I really put my foot in my mouth (which has probably already happened).

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

Uh, I made an edit of that post that you just discussed, basically admitting that my game was screwed up and just saying a few things I'd like to carry over from it into whatever game you inevitably decide to make.

By "victory as a mechanic", I mean that victory isn't just "you win and everyone else loses".

Anyways, the original game I made had some flaws I'd like to correct:
1:  The updating required unanimous participation.
2:  The grid left plenty of room for error (I only made one throughout the entire game, but if we fixed problem #1 it would probably happen more often because not everyone is as OCD as I am).
3:  It was based on a dream by another forum user.
4:  I wrote it mostly at 4 AM the weekend before the beginning of the spring semester of college.

I think what I'd like to do, if it's OK, is let someone else design the base of the game, then make suggestions for it, instead of designing a game of my own.

As a last word, I just want to say that my goal in making the game was to make it into less of a "power gamer" game, where there's one objective and one path to achieving it, and the game is about who can do that the best.  If that's what you want, go for it, those can be kinda fun, but I guess I just like more subtlety. 

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
I think Cato's point about diplomacy as a game mechanic is interesting and important. Cato, letting players suppress territory switching and negotiate boundaries was a stroke of genius and probably the single most interesting part of that game. 

The Selesnya can offer guilds resources, and that's always been an interesting part of their ability. I wonder if we can't extend that logic to some other guilds.

For example, what if we compensated for some of Rakdos's inherent weaknesses by giving them a static ability like:

Book the Juri Revue
: Any player may give the Rakdos +1 to put a  token next to another guild. Rakdos attacks against that guild deal 1 more damage. Remove the token at EOD.


Not sure about the balance there, but you can at least see how this ability attempts to encourage temporary uses truces and abuses of guilds, while also providing an attack-based guild with a way of stabilizing life loss.

Some other "buy this guild" abilities might be interesting. I can see the Simic and the Orzhov both working well with that. And like I said, the Selesnya ability to reinforce other guilds has been interesting in the past. I think we can apply that logic elsewhere.



Also, I wonder if we should get some more people from YMTC down here to help...
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@LordM: Good start, but I feel you are a bit off flavor with a number of the abilities. Particularly Overload and Cipher. I really hate to not give any more than that, but it's really late and I haven't read it closely and I'm tired and I'm having a flashback to when I first joined the forums.

Unsurprisingly, those were the two that gave me the most trouble. Cipher was pretty tricky- I tried to use Cipher as an easy-to-use political tool (ally with us and spare yourself a ), but it didn't turn out great, I admit. I took a look at Tevish's version afterwards and liked it, but it seems like it could get out of hand quickly if Dimir had multiple players, as some guilds are more appealing choices than others.

As for Overload, I've been tinkering with a version that relies on adjacent guilds and/or "blocks of guilds". The original flavor behind my Overload 1.0 dealing damage to the weakest guilds was the idea that as Izzet's experiments begin to spill over into other territories, the guilds in the worst position have the most trouble dealing with them, but it is, I admit, a "kicking a dog while its down" type of ability, which seems more appropriate for Rakdos (and I'm comfortable with how Unleash is shaping up to be).

If you can get back to me on what other abilities seem to stand out, it would be a great help.

EDIT: I've gone back and tinkered with Overload. Looks better to me, but input would be appreciated.

First impressions: I like the idea of the endgame abilities. I also like the new Gateless faction mechanic.


Me, too. The Gateless faction is a really cool and flavorful idea to implement. They kind of scare me though. I feel the Endgame abilities (which I feel could use a slightly better name than "Endgame." Maybe something like "Disbanding" or... something with the word "fall.") give the Gateless a bit too much power. Now, I know this needs testing in a beta, but from a glance it seems that mor often than not, the Gateless would win.

"Collapse", "downfall", and "dispersion" all spring to mind.

Ohoho, you weren't here for GWIII. I personally was responsible for our downfall by stabbing previous allies in the back over a deal with the Orzhov (I was Izzet and our allies at the time was the Golgari). And Omega137 (an Orzhov) was a major PM'er in the game. Shadowy dealing abound in these Guildwars games, no matter what.

You have no idea the level of thought Omega puts into his strategy PMs. They were incredible. He had pretty much every contingency planned out ahead of time. We deviated from our plans here and there, but by and large, our brainstorming accounted for all probable scenarios.

My Sig
Reality is but the sum total of all illusions. Proud Hand of Karsus, now and forever Mess with one Hand, mess with 'em all I am Blue/Green
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Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
@GWIII
I kind of like to think that GWIII was the origin of the Gateless movement.  In a funny way, we did sort of predict that turn, seeing as about half the game was playing for "guildless" by the end... and GWIII did run years before RTR

@My Draft, Rakdos
Right now, Unleash does deal more damage: They give up their reinforce for 2 damage, and still have their standard, 1 damage attack.  I'm really wary of bumping that to 3 (4 total)...

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Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills)
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@My Draft, Rakdos
Right now, Unleash does deal more damage: They give up their reinforce for 2 damage, and still have their standard, 1 damage attack.  I'm really wary of bumping that to 3 (4 total)...

My caveat was that their 3-power attack must have a different target than their standard attack. My original version was 2-damage but could hit the same target as the standard. I'm fine with the latter.

Also, I'd encourage everyone who has an idea for a mechanic to pitch it. There's plenty of room Tevish and I haven't covered, and the final product will probably be a collage of different ideas from different people.

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Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
Sorry Szat, I misread that. I assumed you meant 2 damage total, not 2 damage plus a standard attack.
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With a fresh night of sleep and a full-scheduled day off work behind me, I can now answer in a much more level-headed way!

EDIT:  those are valid points, and I guess this game might be a bit too high-maintenance for what you're trying to do.  I do, however, think that the following elements could be incorporated into whatever game you end up deciding on with minimal effort:
1:  Resources which can be negotiated over:  in my game, it was territory, but it can be anything.  Basically, something that grants you an advantage, which the players must either negotiate over or take by force.
2:  Things to do other than combat:   capturing territory was an example of one such thing.  This helps the diplomacy aspect, because while combat is still profitable if successful, you can advance your position without resorting to violence.  It also provides an more gameplay options for the players.
3:  Victory as a mechanic:  this is a major factor in encouraging diplomacy, and also in decreasing the violence level and pace of the game, which I really liked about my game.



To take this one at a time;

1. Resources make me come back to that monopoly-style idea you gave me last night. But I feel it may fight with the Gateless mechanic for novelty and complexity if we keep the Gateless mechanic in the end result.

2. That is... so brilliant. GRRAH EVEN WATCHING EXTRA CREDITS I HAVE APPARENTLY LEARNED NOTHING! INVITING A FRIEND OVER TO DINNER IS AN AMAZING GAME MECHANIC BECAUSE PEOPLE ACTUALLY DO CARE ABOUT THESE KINDS OF THINGS!

Sorry, that was me yelling at myself. Done now. I mean it that it is such a brilliant thing, though. For it to work, though, we need a basic structure something like...
this:
2 threads: 1st one contains the non-combative portion of the game (trading & bartering; guild-specific activities {such as farming for Golgari and law-making for Azorius}; gathering of favor and/or money; things that would be spelled out by rules and abilities but not directly combative).
2nd one contains the combat portion of the game (with life counts, attacks and reinforcements, etc.).


Thinking about it like that, I've got this nebulous idea that we could pare the abilities down by having, like 1 ability per guild in the Combat thread; then having the things that happen in the Non-combat thread directly effect the combat portion. If we feel really ambitious, having things like life totals in the combat portion effect the non-combat portion as well (in ways other than "Simic is now dead, it can no longer make deals").

That might be an excellent solution to our overcomplexity problem -- yet also holds loads of logistic problems. My best thought is that, to keep once-a-day things from falling flat with no one posting on the non-combative side, have things that resolve "after X days" or "if ~guild gains X life" or "if enemy guild Y loses X life."

I'm going to try to write up an example to show what the hell I'm talking about here.

Where was I? Oh yeah.

3.I'm going to include your second post here to clear things up for myself:
By "victory as a mechanic", I mean that victory isn't just "you win and everyone else loses".

Anyways, the original game I made had some flaws I'd like to correct:
1:  The updating required unanimous participation.
2:  The grid left plenty of room for error (I only made one throughout the entire game, but if we fixed problem #1 it would probably happen more often because not everyone is as OCD as I am).
3:  It was based on a dream by another forum user.
4:  I wrote it mostly at 4 AM the weekend before the beginning of the spring semester of college.

I think what I'd like to do, if it's OK, is let someone else design the base of the game, then make suggestions for it, instead of designing a game of my own.



I'm... Still not getting you on the victory as a mechanic thing. Unless you mean that there is essentially min-games within the game -- so that you can "win" specific little achievements without winning the game proper.

As much as I'm admittedly arguing against your ideas, you've actually got a number of true gems. But again, we need to pare down complexity, pacing, and novelty. If you use X Yand Z new mechanics in one game and then use X Y and S mechanics in the next, it's likely going to get people either not caring about X and Y because "they've seen it," or they're not going to focus on S no matter how good it is because X and Y were so massively popular from last game.

As a last word, I just want to say that my goal in making the game was to make it into less of a "power gamer" game, where there's one objective and one path to achieving it, and the game is about who can do that the best.  If that's what you want, go for it, those can be kinda fun, but I guess I just like more subtlety.



Again, excellent idea. But in the case of even the "tradional" tally-based games we do here, it's usually not so much "who can do the main goal the best," as much as "how many people do you have on your side?" Hmm... That reminds me. Once upon a time, these forum games were as much about being vocal and getting your friends from other forums to join your side and help you win in this big positive-feedback loop that just made the game bigger and bigger. Unfortunately, it's hard to get people to advertise, other people to care to join the game, and other other people to care to FREAKING JOIN THESE GLITCHY BLOODY BETA FORUMS.

I think Cato's point about diplomacy as a game mechanic is interesting and important. Cato, letting players suppress territory switching and negotiate boundaries was a stroke of genius and probably the single most interesting part of that game.

The Selesnya can offer guilds resources, and that's always been an interesting part of their ability. I wonder if we can't extend that logic to some other guilds.

For example, what if we compensated for some of Rakdos's inherent weaknesses by giving them a static ability like:

Book the Juri Revue: Any player may give the Rakdos +1 to put a token next to another guild. Rakdos attacks against that guild deal 1 more damage. Remove the token at EOD.



Not sure about the balance there, but you can at least see how this ability attempts to encourage temporary uses truces and abuses of guilds, while also providing an attack-based guild with a way of stabilizing life loss.

Some other "buy this guild" abilities might be interesting. I can see the Simic and the Orzhov both working well with that. And like I said, the Selesnya ability to reinforce other guilds has been interesting in the past. I think we can apply that logic elsewhere.



Also, I wonder if we should get some more people from YMTC down here to help...


That sounds great. "Buy this guild" abilities would do fantastic in the "combat + non-combat thread" game that I was thinking of. Except it would have to be something like....
this
Each guild starts with lets say 30 gold. (Keep in mind this is the non-combat thread.) Then each guild has at least one ability that says something like: Rakdos: any guild may give the Rakdos 5 gold to place a token next to another (i.e. non-Rakdos and non-buying guild) target guild in the combat thread. Guilds marked with take an extra damage from any Rakdos ablity, whether combat or non-combat.

The key would be that there would always be gold circulating in the non-combat thread. So stuff like: Selesnya: any player may give the Selesnya 10 gold. If they do, each other guild gains 5 gold. Dimir: a Dimir guildmage may pay 5 gold (this gold is deducted from the Dimir's total and does not change hands) to have their next payment of any amount be free (gold will not change hands; Dimir will not lose gold and the other guild will not gain gold).


All this that's cooking up in my brain may be too adventurous for such a big game right now. Meaning: this may be something I'll explore in a smaller, five- or six-faction game, to prove its worth first. Yet at the same time I feel Ravnica is the absolute best place to put this non-combat-second-thread business to good use.

@LordM: Give me a little while longer to look over what you already have. I'll try to give you a response within the hour, because I hope to be in bed within the hour. My god do I take forever to write.

@Tevish: Ditto. I've barely looked over either of your games, really. Too much to process at 2 and 3 am.

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

Sorry for double posting, but I've got to ask for my sake and everyone else's:

Is anyone bothered that I comment on(nearly) every post and make freakin' HUGE posts? i.e. Does anyone want me to stop being so "in your face" here?

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

sblocks are your friend.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
sblocks are your friend.


I meant more along the lines of "am I being too much of a windbag?"

Profile Picture taken with implied permission from Trildar.

KeeperofManyNames wrote:

Alright, new theory: these forums are an experiment in ultraminimalism. By Monday everything--yes everything--will be the color white, and typing any character will simply produce a solid rectangle of variable height and width.

Well, you probably are, but that doesn't change the fact that you should comment on people's posts.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
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