Ki Foci, and the Unseelie Agent

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OK, so I have a specific question as it relates to a character I'm building, and then some general questions surrounding that one.

1. Can the Shadow-Wrought Weapon from the Unseelie Agent theme (Heroes of the Feywild, pg 114) be a ki focus for my vampire character?

2. What can, or cannot, be a ki focus? I can't find any concrete rules for this in any of the books, but I might be looking at the wrong books, or the wrong places. Since there are no restrictions, it looks like you can choose any item to be your ki focus, even a magic weapon or implement.

3. Assuming weapons can be ki foci, is it possible for a weapon to be a superior ki focus, or does that have to be an item that is specifically nothing but a ki focus. Obviously, the Shadow-Wrought Weapon cannot be a superior ki focus... right? 
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1: No.

2: A Ki Focus is an item in and of itself.

3: Weapons cannot be ki foci.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
1: No.

2: A Ki Focus is an item in and of itself.

3: Weapons cannot be ki foci.


Any rules to cite?
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Not to hand, no, but I'm sure someone else can help if you're going to ignore mine.

Ki Foci are not weapons, weapons are not Ki Foci, they are subject to separate rules.  Read the RC, or Heroes of Shadow, or PHB3.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Not to hand, no, but I'm sure someone else can help if you're going to ignore mine.

Ki Foci are not weapons, weapons are not Ki Foci, they are subject to separate rules.  Read the RC, or Heroes of Shadow, or PHB3.


I'm not ignoring you; I'm just asking for a rules quote that supports your position. I've already mentioned that I've looked at all the rules regarding ki foci that I can find, and I don't see anything concrete either way. Add to that that I've seen threads on this and other sites say it both ways, and my request for rules validation is hardly suspect.
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OK; show me the rule that says I'm wrong.

There isn't one, by the way.

Flavour-wise, a Ki Focus could be anything (or, indeed, it could be nothing other than a manifestation of your character's inner focus.  On his Ki). 

Mechanically, however, it is a specific item called a Ki Focus, which has Ki Focus-specific enchantments, Ki Focus-specific feats, Ki Focus-specific Superior versions, and is not anything other than a Ki Focus.

If you;re looking for a rule that will tell you a Ki Focus can be a weapon, there isn't one, because it can't be (or, indeed vice versa).

So no, I can;t provide rules quotes to prove a negative, because that's not how this system works.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Not to hand, no, but I'm sure someone else can help if you're going to ignore mine.

Ki Foci are not weapons, weapons are not Ki Foci, they are subject to separate rules.  Read the RC, or Heroes of Shadow, or PHB3.


I'm not ignoring you; I'm just asking for a rules quote that supports your position. I've already mentioned that I've looked at all the rules regarding ki foci that I can find, and I don't see anything concrete either way. Add to that that I've seen threads on this and other sites say it both ways, and my request for rules validation is hardly suspect.



What you're doing is like asking for the rule that says that an axe is not a horse.  There isn't one, but that does not mean that an axe is a horse.

This is not how exception-based design works.  A lack of a rule prohibiting something does not mean that the thing is allowed.  It has to say it is allowed, explicitly.  The logic you're employing is fundamentally flawed when applied to D&D 4e, to the point where we've given it a name:  the Munchkin fallacy.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Ki Focus is a kooky one to deal with but it is akin to the Holy Symbol.

Ki Focuses

A Ki focus is an implement that certain characters use as a focus for their inner magical energy, known as ki. A ki focus might take the form of a training manual, a scroll of ancient secrets, a blunt training weapon, or a cherished memento. The ki focus that you are attuned to occupies your ki focus item slot.

Using a Ki Focus: Once you have attuned yourself to a ki focus, you must either wear it or hold it in order to use it as an implement.

Ki Focuses and Weapon Attacks: If you use a magic ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of weapon attacks you make using a weapon with which you have proficiency. If you have both a magic ki focus and a magic weapon, you choose before you use an attack power whether to draw on the magic of the ki focus or that of the weapon. Your choice determines which enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, and magic item properties and powers you can apply to that power. You can’t, for example, use the enhancement bonus of your ki focus and the critical hit effect of your magic weapon on the same attack.


Now in the Compendium search it is listed under the Weapon category and Accessories type. When purchasing a Ki Foci it is found under the Implement category. (Not rules sources, just citing accessible materials). 

 Unseelie Agent Starting Feature (1st level): You gain the create shadow-wrought weapon power. When you select the Unseelie agent theme, choose a melee weapon or a ranged weapon with which you have proficiency. The weapon created by this power is the same kind of weapon.

Edits are mine to highlight specific texts.

 
A ki focus might take the form of a blunt training weapon

Its about the only weapon it can be whatever that is...

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

A ki focus might take the form of a blunt training weapon

Its about the only weapon it can be whatever that is...




I would guess it may be reffering to these but it still would not make it a weapon for the purposes of the shadow-wrought weapon.
I agree there. 

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

1. Can the Shadow-Wrought Weapon from the Unseelie Agent theme (Heroes of the Feywild, pg 114) be a ki focus for my vampire character?

As ez has pointed out a ki focus is an implement, and the shadow wrought weapon must be a melee or ranged weapon. The primary rules are listed in the PH3. The fluff says it can take any form, but it doesn't call it a weapon, just like a Wand of Cold may be described as a sharp icicle, but you still can't stab anyone with it.

I guess another rule to site is that you must have proficiency in a weapon to wield it correctly, and vampire only gets proficiency in ki focuses specifically as an implement. So even if your ki focus is a big awesome sword, you are not proficient in the use of that sword as a weapon.
OK, so the key misunderstanding that I had appears to be that, while a ki focus can be a variety of items, it is never ALSO another kind of item. The description of them in the PHB3 didn't make that entirely clear. It gave a vague, broad category of items that could be ki foci, and didn't elaborate on what qualifies.

Thanks, folks.

BTW, the Rules Q&A board here is still a lot less friendly than the Magic Rules Q&A board. Might want to work on that.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
BTW, the Rules Q&A board here is still a lot less friendly than the Magic Rules Q&A board. Might want to work on that.[/size]



Guess what, come hang out in the Char-op forum. I don't come here that often but this place has nothing on us over there.
BTW, the Rules Q&A board here is still a lot less friendly than the Magic Rules Q&A board. Might want to work on that.[/size]



Guess what, come hang out in the Char-op forum. I don't come here that often but this place has nothing on us over there.


I spent about an hour before posting this question, searching the books and trying to find the answer with Google. I prefer not to ask questions here. But, hey, I got my answer, and just in time for it not to matter for my character (decided it was a dumb idea to begin with... awesome, but dumb).
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
BTW, the Rules Q&A board here is still a lot less friendly than the Magic Rules Q&A board. Might want to work on that.[/size]



Guess what, come hang out in the Char-op forum. I don't come here that often but this place has nothing on us over there.


I spent about an hour before posting this question, searching the books and trying to find the answer with Google. I prefer not to ask questions here. But, hey, I got my answer, and just in time for it not to matter for my character (decided it was a dumb idea to begin with... awesome, but dumb).


And you got some pretty reasonable people to help you out in this thread. theSpace, Mand,Plague and Scatterbrained are usually not the types to jump on folks to quickly that i've ever seen. I am usually not one to be uncivil to most because frankly there's enough of that on these boards but folks have bad days sometimes.

Never "be affraid" to ask questions just be sure to put on a thick suit of Plate when you do because sometimes it can get rough.

Edit: trust me, i've spent way more time working on builds, frankly more than i care to mention,  that never, ever, evahhh see the light of day. And none of them are "Char-OP, look at what i did" builds.
If we came off a bit harsh, it's because over the past few days, there's been a rash of people coming in, asking questions they know, but don't like, the answers to, and arguing when they're told those answers.  This felt a lot like one of those threads.

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
BTW, the Rules Q&A board here is still a lot less friendly than the Magic Rules Q&A board. Might want to work on that.

Hey, thanks for saying all the people who answered your question shouldn't have bothered wasting their time helping you. Nice attitude.
OK, so the key misunderstanding that I had appears to be that, while a ki focus can be a variety of items, it is never ALSO another kind of item. The description of them in the PHB3 didn't make that entirely clear. It gave a vague, broad category of items that could be ki foci, and didn't elaborate on what qualifies.

Thanks, folks.

BTW, the Rules Q&A board here is still a lot less friendly than the Magic Rules Q&A board. Might want to work on that.


Assuming you know the answer and ignoring people who contradict you is what is unfriendly, not answering your question and explaining why your reasoning is flawed.

If you think being told you're wrong is a personal attack, then no, we won't seem friendly.  But the point is that we answer the question, period, regardless of who is asking it or why.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Not to seem ungrateful for the help... I am grateful, and I came away from this thread with a better understanding of a rules mechanic that had somewhat confused me for some time now, but here's what I meant when I said that this Rules Q&A board is less friendly than the Magic RQ&A...

Here's how the Magic Rules Q&A board works:
Me: Does X work?
Answer: No.
Me: Why not?
Answer: Rule [citing rule here]. Your misunderstanding seems to be rooted in a misconception that X can be a Y, while it is defined specifically as a Z instead.

Here's how it works on this board (at least, how it always feels to me):
Me: Does this work?
Answer: No.
Me: Why not?
Answer: Because it doesn't. Get a clue. 
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
Doesn't always work like that, I usually quote rules when i give answers on Rules Q&A, so are few others too...

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Part of the reason for that difference is that Magic, in general, does have specific rules to cover everything.  4e D&D rules are not written that way - instead, everything does exactly what it says it does, and does not do anything that the rules do not say it does not do.
  Munchkin players often try to get past the 2nd part of the clause to get abilities they wouldn't otherwise have. 

For example, if you were to say "The rules don't say a full blade can't be a ki focus, so I have a ki focus that is also a full blade", that would be an error, because the rules do specify that a ki focus is its own item type and nothing says that a ki focus can also be a weapon.