The MTGO Bazaar & The Gatherling.Com Present: Commander 2.08

32 posts / 0 new
Last post
Commander on Gatherling.com sponsored by The MTGO Bazaar

Commander 2.08 is a FREE Commander League on Gatherling.com. It is open to all, playing Commander with the built-in Commander filter. Newcomers are always welcome.  Matches will be best 2 out of 3, using the Commander Duel play structure with a 60 minute timer. Please select to allow watchers. To find a match please type "/join Commander" at any text box in MTGO. In addition to the standard Commander banlist produced and maintained by the Rules Committee, this league is also instituting a ban on the following cards: Dream Halls, Hermit Druid, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Mana Vault, Necropotence, Serra Ascendant, Sol Ring, and Survival of the Fittest. This environment is about fostering the fun of everybody involved, and these cards named above are notorious for creating “unfair” or “lop-sided” game states. If a player is found with any banned cards in their deck, they will be issued a match loss versus their current opponent and will be allowed to switch out the offending card(s) with a basic land of their choice.


Additionally, Edric, Spymaster of Trest is banned as a commander. A player found using Edric as their commander will be issued a match loss. They will be allowed to switch out their commander once for another legal option (but the rest of their main deck must remain unchanged). Edric, as a card, will still be legal for use as a part of the ninety-nine.


Adding to this list, is Zur, the Enchanter is banned as a commander. A player found using Zur as their commander will be issued a match loss. They will be allowed to switch out their commander once for another legal option (but the rest of their main deck must remain unchanged). Zur, as a card, will still be legal for use as a part of the ninety-nine. While Zur has not yet won an event in particular, this is a proactive ban, rather than a reactive one. At four mana, in these colours, it is easy enough to play as soon as turn two, with counter-magic back-up, allowing it to swing once as early as turn three. The first swing is all that matters here and once it happens, it is nigh-impossible to stop the inevitable from happening. Matches should not be determined in such a "coin-flip" manner like this, at least not this early in the game, as this would be enough to catch any player before reasonable responses would be able to "come online" to deal with this.


And lastly adding one more to this list, is Grand Arbiter Augustine IV is banned as a commander. A player found using Grand Arbiter as their commander will be issued a match loss. They will be allowed to switch out their commander once for another legal option (but the rest of their main deck must remain unchanged). Grand Arbiter, as a card, will still be legal for use as a part of the ninety-nine. This is banned on power-level reasons. For the effect of such a card at four mana it is too strong, and too hard to be able to reasonably fight back from. For example, Red, the colour of land destruction gets a card at four mana for a 2/2 with haste (and Echo, mind you) and an "ETB" Stone Rain effect, and this is very much considered a "pushed" card in power level. Why then, should the Azorius colour combination be able to get that same four mana "Stone Rain" effect on a bigger body (a 2/3), while also offering a cost-reduction ability for itself, with no downside whatsoever? The Azorius colour combination doesn't even get land destruction under modern design philosophies, at least not any at the kind of ludicrously low cost that Grand Arbiter offers. So, in effect, GAAIV is too powerful for this metagame, and will only encourage a warped environment that fosters the same blue/white decks versus themselves, or versus specific anti-blue/anti-white decks.



It is not powerful decks that are the center-point of my decisions here, as powerful decks will always exist. It is a stagnant metagame that is to be combatted as we do not desire an environment where only one deck remains as the clear choice to be head and shoulders above every other deck.



Temporarily banned is the card Mystifying Maze, as shown in Commander 2.05, it has a bug associated with the commander. When it is utilized targeting a commander, the commander returns to the battlefield untapped, when according do the card, the commander should clearly be returned tapped. I have sent a bug report to WotC CustServ on this issue, and as soon as I receive word that it is fixed, the card will once again be legal for use as normal.



  • Just popping in for an edit here, I just tried this again late Sunday night, and it appears the bug is still in existance. So still no Mystifying Maze for now. :/


If anybody else experiences any bug in the way cards work that is different than the expected functionality, please, let me know, and report it to CustServ and we will take care of things appropriately. If there is a problem in the middle of a match and I am not available, keep a log of the bug in question and I will look into it and take appropriate action as to the result of the match.



Registration is currently open. Gatherling Commander Event 2.08 will start Saturday, February 16th 2013.  Each Gatherling Commander Event will last one week; the tournaments will always start on a Saturday and end the following Sunday evening(to allow a little more time to get as many matches in as possible). This also then allows for a one week “cool down” period between events where players may switch out decks, perform edits, and just otherwise further strategize to be ready for the next event.



REGISTRATION:
Registration is currently open. To register go to www.Gatherling.com --> Gatherling and log in (or register), go to your Player CP, and in the middle of the left column click the reg link! A form to enter your deck list will then come up.  Enter your deck list. Do not play any matches until you enter your deck list. If you do not enter a deck list, you will be disqualified and dropped from the tournament.  This is enforced in order to facilitate learning and strategy development from the current meta-game, as well as aid our sponsors in marketing for the event.



NOTE - Late registrations are always welcome but realize that the later you start, the harder it will be to get your matches in, as players will become less active after they get some matches completed. To reg late just leave a "reg" message right here in this thread. You do not have to play all the matches. Feel free to play however many you like.

COMMUNICATING:
Once the event starts, players will have until one minute before the next event's start time to face each other player in one match apiece. Upon completion of each match, place the results in this thread here to get credit. Only the winning player needs to report the result.  To find a match type "/join Commander" at any text box in MTGO. This is a very easy way to find your matches without much difficulty, the only other alternative being to add every person as a friend and go from there. It’s your choice, but I recommend using the Commander room more often as well.



DECK CONSTRUCTION
Unless it is a special or alt event, Gatherling Commander uses the built-in Commander duel filter with the named changes here in this post. If MTGO says your deck is legal, and it contains none of the cards mentioned here in this post, then it's legal for this league. This does require some slight self-moderating in order to make sure you don’t put the above named cards above in your deck, which are not flagged by the client as being banned, so build carefully.



Commander is SINGLETON! Make a 100 card deck (99 cards plus your one Commander) with no more than 1 English copy of any given card (except basic lands).



PRIZES
There are 30 tickets worth of prizes every event! 15 tickets from www.gatherling.com and $15 worth of bot credits from The MTGO Bazaar! These prizes will be distributed as follows:

1st 10 bot credits
2nd 8 bot credits
3rd 6 bot credits
4th 6 bot credits

Donations for Top 4 and door prize are always appreciated, as is contributing to larger prize pools for Season Championships. Please PM Dabil in game if you have something you wish to contribute.

EVENT STRUCTURE

There will be one round of League play in which each participant is allowed to play each other player once.  The time frame is one week.  This will hopefully introduce a much more casual gaming environment, one where players can easily find another match without waiting for the host to process results. 

After one week, the top 4 scores as computed in Gatherling will be awarded medals with the top player winning a Trophy which will permanently be displayed on your player profile. The tournament will end regardless of whether people have completed all of their matchups.    This is due to time constraints and to reward those who play often.  Note that a person who has won half of 20 matches will have more points than one who has won 100% of nine matches. Gatherling awards 3 points for a win and -1 points for a loss.

RULES
•    The registered players will be listed here in this thread once the event starts since you cannot see the other players decks or registrations until the tournament ends. The order of matches will be up to each individual and availability of opponents.  Feel free to use this forum or MTGO PM system to set up a date/time with any given opponent.

•    Remember that each Gatherling Commander Event will last exactly one week. Get those matches in! We are going to try and extend this deadline through the weekend so instead of ending sharply on Saturday, we will end on Sunday evening to allow for one extra weekend for players to get their matches in. Hopefully this will make it easier for other players to have a better shot of catching up in points before the event is done. This tournament operates by highest total points, NOT necessarily the highest win percentage!  You will receive 3 points for a win and -1 points for each loss.

•    Tables must be made using the Commander Challenge filter, a sixty-minute timer, "best 2 out of 3", Watchable, and labeled "Gatherling.com Commander". And remember, the more we publicize these matches, the more participation we will get! So feel free to invite anyone who likes playing Commander!

•    The deck used for your first match must be used for the entire tournament. Modifications can result in disqualification and banning.

•    After each match, results must be reported in this thread in the event forum like "3drinks vs Dabil W2-1" or "Dabil vs 3drinks L0-2" (make sure you list your MTGO ID and your opponent!).  If you choose to let your opponent post for the two of you, it is your responsibility to check posts for accuracy.  Mistakes caught after the end of the tournament will be ignored.  Also, anyone dropping from the tournament must report "drop" in the results thread as well.  I know it usually won't matter because of the point system, but it's good to stay in the habit for the sake of other tournaments. And it lets other players know you are not available for matches anymore. (especially late players who may have a hard time getting in their matches).

•    Bad sportsmanship or other rules violations may result in match loss, disqualification, suspension, or banning. Offense and punishment will be decided at the host's discretion.

Season Points and Standings

Players will be awarded the following points for event attendance and performance:
•    1st place: 8 points
•    2nd place: 6 points
•    Top 4: 4 points
•    Top 8: 2 points
•    Match Win: 3 Points
•    Loss -1 point


Top 8 finishers for the season will be invited to the season championship event.

COMMANDER RULES

To find out how to play Commander or "Elder Dragon highlander" (EDH) please go here: Official Commander Rules

PREVIOUS WINNERS:



Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

The following people are registered for Commander 2.08, and have a decklist uploaded and ready to go:

Decklist Uploaded
trainboy
hopachi
Lordpyro
sfilho
the_arend
Yokai_

Gordani
KaraZorEl
Shikogpro
_BIG_BROTHERS_
3drinks
7tacos
cleomar
niabock


The following people are registered for Commander 2.08, but do not have a decklist uploaded yet:

Decklist Required

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

3drinks Win/Loss Results

W vs the_arend 2-1
W vs trainboy 2-1



L vs 7tacos 1-2
L vs Shikogpro 0-2


Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

Okay, so I've heard this complaint from some number of other players, and in the interest of fairness to everybody involved, i want to "institute" one of the following rules. One of these will be going into effect, but I will leave this here for everyone to discuss.

"All cards with the text of 'counter target spell' and variants thereof with a converted mana cost of two or less will be banned (this includes those with an X in their cost, like Syncopate, for example)."

"Any counterspell regardless of mana cost is legal to be played (except those on the actual banlist, naturally). However, a deck may contain no more than seven such counterspells in their deck."

Both of these options address the other players concerns about the abundance of cheap countermagic making it impossible to play and/or enjoy other strategies. While these may seem like extreme courses of action, I feel it is all we can do to ensure that all players are able to enjoy the game as a whole. Cheap countermagic is such a problem as it provides a way too easily accessible universal answer to any kind of spell any opponent would bring. It's one thing to pack Doom Blades and Naturalizes to handle a single type of threat, but when that one Counterspell can fulfill either role and then some, something needs to be done. Either of these, I feel, will be the best course of action to handle such a situation. So, now I open the floor up to discussion on which they would prefer.

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

I don't think this proposed banning is as much about "fairness" or power level than it is about perceived fun to play against. First of all, it would be extremely unfair towards blue decks as they lose a valuable way to answer threats. This is especially so with your first proposal. Mono-blue decks would essentially be hapless during the first 2 turns unless they want to lose card advantage by playing Unsummons or unkicked Into the Roils. Even later in the game, players can squeeze threats through an opponent's counterspells knowing that the opponent has to leave at least 6 mana up just to counter 2 spells in a turn. You only need to look at the past tournament results to see that cramming a deck full of counterspells doesn't automatically make it good. As far as I know, players here have failed to make the Top 4 despite playing Vendilion Clique or Talrand. On the other hand, non-control strategies have made the Top 4 with a good deal of regularity. You could argue that there is an "abundance of cheap countermagic" and I would wholeheartedly agree. However, the actual question should be whether there is an abundance of quality countermagic; the answer to which is "no".

You compared spells like Doom Blade and Naturalize with Counterspell, but only presented the side which supports your argument. Yes, counterspells can answer a wider variety of threats than either of those 2 spells, but if you were truly interested in fairly informing readers and providing an unbiased argument, you would also point out that counterspells are unable to deal with threats already on the battlefield while the other 2 spells can. As such, a player wielding counterspells would have to play "proactively" by leaving mana up for counterspells rather than playing non-flash creatures, sorceries, artifacts or enchantments. Oh the other hand, Doom Blade can answer a creature threat on the opponent's turn, the player's own turn, or even when topdecked 5 turns later.

The opportunity cost of leaving mana up for counterspells is that it sacrifices the chance to build up one's board state. A smart opponent can elect to not play any spells and pressure the counterspell player with whatever is on the board, or he can "bait" counterspells by playing his less important spells. The player with counterspells has to either "waste" counterspells on the less important spells or face their cumulative and eventually significant effects. Another way would be to play more spells in a turn than can be countered. Each form of answer has its pros and cons. That is why I run a mixture of counterspells and spot removal in my Jenara deck. Contrary to the points I think you have made in your post, a counterspell-heavy deck is acutally less flexible than one with a mix of answers.

Perhaps someone has quickly noted that decks with counterspells can play other spells at instant speed, thereby reducing the opportunity cost of leaving mana up at the end of their turn. This is most certainly true. In fact, it would be foolish not to do so unless pursuing a tempo plan. However, due to the singleton nature of this format, there are not many quality options available. To offset their flexibility, cards which can be played at instant speed also tend to be weaker than those which need to be played at sorcery speed. Therefore, Jace's Ingenuity only draws 3 cards while Tidings draws 4. Careful Consideration makes you discard 2 cards when played during your main phase but 3 cards outside of it. Also, the counterspell player tapping out to play such cards gives the opponent an opportunity to cast his own spells at instant speed with little fear of them being countered. Aside from cards with flash and instants, cards like Alchemist's Refuge, Winding Canyons and Yeva, Nature's Herald can also help get around counterspells in this way. "Cannot be countered" cards are obvious options which I had explained in earlier threads and will not do so again.

In MtG, there are answers aplenty, both in deck construction and in play decisions. The closest analogue to this tournament is French Duel Commander, which is also from what I gather, the most widely played competitive Commander format. If cheap counterspells are not banned there, it should at least provoke the rational to consider why that is the case. One can also perform a search on Gatherer to find out which formats the iconic Counterspell is banned in. The link to which is: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Printings.aspx?multiverseid=202437.

TL;DR: MtG has answers to counterspells. We have the brains to find out what they are. Let's not turn this tournament into a hand-holding, spoon-feeding event and use the banlist only where required. Pardon the hyperbole, but given the rate at which bans here are proposed and implemented, we would soon be reduced to playing Commander preconstructed decks. 
I don't think this proposed banning is as much about "fairness" or power level than it is about perceived fun to play against. First of all, it would be extremely unfair towards blue decks as they lose a valuable way to answer threats. This is especially so with your first proposal. Mono-blue decks would essentially be hapless during the first 2 turns unless they want to lose card advantage by playing Unsummons or unkicked Into the Roils. Even later in the game, players can squeeze threats through an opponent's counterspells knowing that the opponent has to leave at least 6 mana up just to counter 2 spells in a turn. You only need to look at the past tournament results to see that cramming a deck full of counterspells doesn't automatically make it good. As far as I know, players here have failed to make the Top 4 despite playing Vendilion Clique or Talrand. On the other hand, non-control strategies have made the Top 4 with a good deal of regularity. You could argue that there is an "abundance of cheap countermagic" and I would wholeheartedly agree. However, the actual question should be whether there is an abundance of quality countermagic; the answer to which is "no".


I don't know how you can say there is an abundance of cheap countermagic but not an abundance of quality countermagic when the two terms are mutually exclusive. Allowing such cards to persist means that players can't play because an opponent might have a counter at any point. It's a bit unfair for players to be forced to play specifically around an opponent just because that opponent is able to play the most versatile type of answers available. Or, perhaps even worse, when certain players decline to play a number of other players because of some players deck contents or the feeling of it "being a hopeless or horribly slanted match-up". I want everybody to be willing, or at least interested, in playing everybody, and these decks that can tout their heavy permission is directly stifiling to this vision of this League. There's a reason why competitive players always whine at R&D when new sets come out about the countermagic of today -- because deep down, they know that two cmc counters are inherently over-powered while the three cmc counters force them to "play fair"...and competitive players don't want to play fair, they want to win at the easiest cost (Not that I can fault someone, as I too am a competitive person). After all, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line...
You compared spells like Doom Blade and Naturalize with Counterspell, but only presented the side which supports your argument. Yes, counterspells can answer a wider variety of threats than either of those 2 spells, but if you were truly interested in fairly informing readers and providing an unbiased argument, you would also point out that counterspells are unable to deal with threats already on the battlefield while the other 2 spells can. As such, a player wielding counterspells would have to play "proactively" by leaving mana up for counterspells rather than playing non-flash creatures, sorceries, artifacts or enchantments. Oh the other hand, Doom Blade can answer a creature threat on the opponent's turn, the player's own turn, or even when topdecked 5 turns later.


Timing is a very real cost to the player of playing such versatile answers. But that doesn't stop such versatile, universal answers from being above the curve in power level. Why do you think Counterspell will never see the light of day in a standard set again? R&D has realized that it's too powerful, and that Blue shouldn't have such an easy way to deny any single spell an opponent casts.
The opportunity cost of leaving mana up for counterspells is that it sacrifices the chance to build up one's board state. A smart opponent can elect to not play any spells and pressure the counterspell player with whatever is on the board, or he can "bait" counterspells by playing his less important spells. The player with counterspells has to either "waste" counterspells on the less important spells or face their cumulative and eventually significant effects. Another way would be to play more spells in a turn than can be countered. Each form of answer has its pros and cons. That is why I run a mixture of counterspells and spot removal in my Jenara deck. Contrary to the points I think you have made in your post, a counterspell-heavy deck is acutally less flexible than one with a mix of answers.


How can he do that when the counterspell-toting player can counter anything he does starting from turn one? I can Green Sun's Zenith --> Dryad Arbor and you cans till Force Spike the GSZ. The next threat I play at two mana can still be answered the same way. Even for the hate cards, they are only good if they can stick; that means they are only good if that person is full-tapped, but even that is not a fair time because there is still a derth of free countermagic that allows that player to answer even the hate cards. And that player is still devoting slots to said hate cards in an effort to hinder the Blue player, meanwhile he is still drawing those hate cards against non-Blue players. And if he doesn't play the hate cards, then he just loses to the Blue player on principle. This goes back full circle to the whole "Why play anything else when you can just play Blue?" and the "Games are decided by seeing who has more counterspells than the other player?"
Perhaps someone has quickly noted that decks with counterspells can play other spells at instant speed, thereby reducing the opportunity cost of leaving mana up at the end of their turn. This is most certainly true. In fact, it would be foolish not to do so unless pursuing a tempo plan. However, due to the singleton nature of this format, there are not many quality options available. To offset their flexibility, cards which can be played at instant speed also tend to be weaker than those which need to be played at sorcery speed. Therefore, Jace's Ingenuity only draws 3 cards while Tidings draws 4. Careful Consideration makes you discard 2 cards when played during your main phase but 3 cards outside of it. Also, the counterspell player tapping out to play such cards gives the opponent an opportunity to cast his own spells at instant speed with little fear of them being countered. Aside from cards with flash and instants, cards like Alchemist's Refuge, Winding Canyons and Yeva, Nature's Herald can also help get around counterspells in this way. "Cannot be countered" cards are obvious options which I had explained in earlier threads and will not do so again.


"Can't be countered" and other hate are irrelevant, as I was someone who played this specific deck in the last event, I still managed to go 4-5, while also losing to the Blue decks even with my specialized cards. Which goes back to my points previously that the hate cards for what they do, are still ultimately vulnerable to the same cheap countermagic that is so abundant in almost every deck. So see? The counters are warping enough to beat even the specific hate cards. A Scragnoth and Great Sable Stag do not a clock make; yet these are the best threats to brandish against this style of opponent. So without these kinds of cards, it forces any player to only be allowed to play anything when the other play taps for something...this is clearly in an advantage of the counters player. So, what's a non-counters player to do? Nothing. Abslutely nothing, not a damn thing because the counters that person leans on are enough to deny the opponent the chance to mount any kind of significant offense. Clearly, something needs to be done to address this, because this is not healthy. But it has been like this for all eternity of Magic, so naturally the predominant Blue players are adverse to change -- after all, they don't want to lose their prized tool that helps them cheat the other players.
In MtG, there are answers aplenty, both in deck construction and in play decisions. The closest analogue to this tournament is French Duel Commander, which is also from what I gather, the most widely played competitive Commander format. If cheap counterspells are not banned there, it should at least provoke the rational to consider why that is the case. One can also perform a search on Gatherer to find out which formats the iconic Counterspell is banned in. The link to which is: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Printings.aspx?multiverseid=202437.


Yes, and we see how the duel-commander metagame is...Grand Arbiter Augustin IV. Geist of Saint Traft, Zur the Enchanter (yes, two of these are banned in this League). Everything is Blue/White, and everything is decided by the same cheap countermagic I am campaigning against. Change can't come while that is there because it is overall too powerful for a player to wield.
TL;DR: MtG has answers to counterspells. We have the brains to find out what they are. Let's not turn this tournament into a hand-holding, spoon-feeding event and use the banlist only where required. Pardon the hyperbole, but given the rate at which bans here are proposed and implemented, we would soon be reduced to playing Commander preconstructed decks. 


Does it? Because I played the deck with the so-called "answers" to counterspells...and still lost to counterspells. That doesn't sound like the answers to counterspells are efficient enough.

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

I don't know how you can say there is an abundance of cheap countermagic but not an abundance of quality countermagic when the two terms are mutually exclusive.



I think you meant to say they are not mutually exclusive. If they were mutually exclusive, there can indeed be cheap countermagic but little quality countermagic. Your sentence would not have made sense. I think they are not mutually exclusive too. There can be an abundance of cheap, quality counterspells. Likewise, there can be numerous cheap counterspells, but mostly of poor quality. I don't consider any cheap counterspell to necessarily be a quality one, although you might. If that is the case, we are simply speaking on different frequencies. I respect their power and place in Magic, but I am not in awe of them. An example of a counterspell I consider to be of poor quality is Remove Soul. In Commander, it is guaranteed at least one target: the commander itself. But it also fails to stop many of the other powerful spells that see play in this format. Only the most dedicated countrol decks run that card since they have exhausted their quality counterspell options and need more counterspells to plug gaps in their game plan.

Allowing such cards to persist means that players can't play because an opponent might have a counter at any point. It's a bit unfair for players to be forced to play specifically around an opponent just because that opponent is able to play the most versatile type of answers available.



This is where critical thinking comes in. As I have mentioned in my previous post, players can choose to reserve their best spells and pressure the control player to react. In reacting, the control player uses at least part of his mana, giving the other player a window of opportunity to cram in more threats. In the face of possible countermagic, many novices make the mistake of playing their best spells first and hoping they stick. What you would notice if you watch those games is that the counterspell player would eventually run out of counterspells, but the novice player has also run out of quality cards, giving the control player total freedom to cast a game-changer like Mind Spring. If you can't afford to wait to cast a card, then just run it into possible countermagic. Due to variance in this game, good players have to bluff counterspells more often than you would think. That control player might simply be holding a Negate against your Stoneforge Mystic.

Or, perhaps even worse, when certain players decline to play a number of other players because of some players deck contents or the feeling of it "being a hopeless or horribly slanted match-up"



I wonder what this rule is for:
"Bad sportsmanship or other rules violations may result in match loss, disqualification, suspension, or banning. Offense and punishment will be decided at the host's discretion."

Also, I believe you've made this post on another forum:
"No, I'm saying because of the swiss or "round robin" style of our league, you're allowed to play each person once. And he only plays against people's decks who he knows he can beat. The others he just avoids (like my Gaddock Teeg hate cards deck from this week)." 

What joke of a tournament would it be if players won not because they had played well and brought the best deck, but because they avoided people whom they would lose against? Like you mentioned in that thread, one would not even need to consider the metagame when building his deck.

There's a reason why competitive players always whine at R&D when new sets come out about the countermagic of today -- because deep down, they know that two cmc counters are inherently over-powered while the three cmc counters force them to "play fair"...and competitive players don't want to play fair, they want to win at the easiest cost (Not that I can fault someone, as I too am a competitive person).



Please cite your source, especially with regard to opinions which cannot be easily verified. Also, note that opinions are simply that. For every person you find in favor of something, you could just as easily find two who are against it.

Why do you think Counterspell will never see the light of day in a standard set again? R&D has realized that it's too powerful, and that Blue shouldn't have such an easy way to deny any single spell an opponent casts.



I'll pose the same question to you, but with a different card in place of Counterspell so you can see how the logic is flawed.

"Why do you think Mind Twist/Umezawa's Jitte/Land Tax will never see the light of day in a standard set again?"

All the cards I have Commander is not Standard. The card pool for Commander is more akin to Legacy than it is to Standard. Counterspell is good, but it swims with the big fishes. Mind Twist is banned in Legacy. Land Tax used to be banned until about a year ago. Yet, both are legal in Commander. Even when you examine Legacy, you hardly see Counterspell making its way into decklists. Daze and Force of Will are played because they help protect combos or disrupt them.

I can 
Green Sun's Zenith --> Dryad Arbor and you cans till Force Spike the GSZ. The next threat I play at two mana can still be answered the same way.


Force Spike on a GSZ for Dryad Arbor is an equal exchange of cards. However, Force Spike cannot interfere if the GSZ caster is on the play. Neither can it stop spells if the caster leaves one mana up. If you suspect or see a soft counter like Force Spike, you can play around it. That would effectively make your opponent waste a card (force Spike in hand) and a mana (left up to counter) for each turn. This is why I dislike drawing Force Spike anywhere but in the early game. It makes for a bad topdeck and is practically a dead card if your opponent is ahead on mana or is playing around it.

Even for the hate cards, they are only good if they can stick; that means they are only good if that person is full-tapped, but even that is not a fair time because there is still a derth of free countermagic that allows that player to answer even the hate cards.



The trick with getting hate spells to resolve is similar to how you get past countermagic in general. I have detailed it above, so you might want to read it again. Chose the right moment to cast the spell and you can ride it to victory.

With so few counterspells bearing alternate counterspells, of course there is a dearth of "free" countermagic! And "free" here doesn't necessarily mean playing them without cost. Look at the sacrifices required to play them (tempo and card advantage). In Jenara, when I have Force of Will in hand, I either never cast it, cast it for its alternate cost, and cast it for full mana cost at roughly equal frequencies. 

"Why play anything else when you can just play Blue?" and the "Games are decided by seeing who has more counterspells than the other player?"



Because other colors suit your playstyle better and still allow you to win? You have rehashed these two quotes one time too many. I have explained to you why you are incorrect, but you stubbonly refuse to remove the wool over your eyes and wax in your ears. Look at the previous tournament results, for goodness sake! Plot a graph of counterspell quantity vs win rate if you need help visualizing.

"Can't be countered" and other hate are irrelevant, as I was someone who played this specific deck in the last event, I still managed to go 4-5, while also losing to the Blue decks even with my specialized cards. Which goes back to my points previously that the hate cards for what they do, are still ultimately vulnerable to the same cheap countermagic that is so abundant in almost every deck.



I am actually not surprised you lost to blue decks with your hate deck. You played a ton of unfocused hate with little regard for card quality and appropriateness. Why are you playing cards like Gaea's Revenge and Terra Stomper when you hardly have any ramp? Seeds of Innocence, Sacred Ground, Karma, Ivory Mask, etc are all cards a blue player would be pleased to see in his opponent's hand. You have plenty of situational cards like those. Therefore, regardless of the deck you are up against, you will always have dead cards. That is not a good thing. What is the point of getting a Great Sable Stag onto the battlefield against someone with counterspells when all you can follow it up with are Compost and Rest in Peace?

Even with such an odd deck, you still managed to win against a heavy control version of Ruhan of the Fomori and won one game against my Jenara when you had Choke on the battlefield. In the other 2 games, your deck was too durdly and hardly played anything significant. I did not cast even a single counterspell in the third game (I had none).



Anyway, if you ban counterspells or greatly restrict their use, you are only opening up another can of worms. The Magic ecosystem comprises of decks which keep each other in check. When you kill off a major component, decks which were previously prey can now dominate. In a simple analogy, if you ban the use of rock in a game of rock-paper-scissors, scissors will quickly dominate. Soon, everyone would only play scissors because paper can never win and scissors can never lose. MtG is much more complex than that, but with your heavy-handed management of the banlist, you run the risk of creating something similar. 
Doubt I need to say anything in regards to below. Dyspeth has said it all. Given the last tournament results, or take a look at the current league results from 2.01 to 2.07, how many blue heavy counter decks have you seen? As well as how many of those made it into the top 4 consistently? Also, in a league where playing anything from ramp, a ld heavy deck, to crazy dedicated combo decks, control decks should not be penalized for being what they are (being control). Each archetype keeps the other in check (as per reference to Dyspeths post).

Ruhan of the Fomori packs Negates/Remove Souls/False Summoning and other situational cards for the exact reason that if the creature/artifact/combo piece is successfully cast, it is almost near impossible to deal with. Basically these are used to plug up the holes for cards that cannot be dealt with otherwise. Remand/Memory Lapse buys time when needed. Cards like Mana Tithe, Spell Pierce, Disrupt lose value after the first few turns, thus leaving them dead cards, cards likeMuddle the mixture would only have some value for it's transmute effect after a while, and a highly situational card like Interdict is only useful against activated abilities, other than that it is quite a dead card.

Except for the above, I doubt I need to say anything else.

One option: if there is going to be a limit of how much counterspells can be used per deck, then it would only be fair to how much spot removal can be used per deck also, as well as how much discard, how much creatures, how musch land destruciton cards..., lol you see where this is going, limiting blue's only weapon against other decks is biased for blue players (given there are only 2 to 3 other blue players in the league). Blue has counters and card draw/ Black has discard, spot removal, extremely cheap tutors/green has ridiculous amounts of quality ramp, terrifying large creatures/Red has a ridiculous amount of land destruction/white has quite a bit of life gain and exiling going on. Each colour has it's specific speciality and each keeps each other in check. Quite true in our league where a specific archetype is kept in check by another archetype.

EDIT: As noted before, people do choose against who they play, if they do not want to play the blue player then they don't, I have seen this time and time again. Win only because you did not play against the deck you would lose against, even though this is a competitive event with prize support.
First things first, Dyspeth can you please put the image in spoiler tags? It's stretching out the forums to all hell....

I think you meant to say they are not mutually exclusive. If they were mutually exclusive, there can indeed be cheap countermagic but little quality countermagic. Your sentence would not have made sense. I think they are not mutually exclusive too. There can be an abundance of cheap, quality counterspells. Likewise, there can be numerous cheap counterspells, but mostly of poor quality. I don't consider any cheap counterspell to necessarily be a quality one, although you might. If that is the case, we are simply speaking on different frequencies. I respect their power and place in Magic, but I am not in awe of them. An example of a counterspell I consider to be of poor quality is Remove Soul. In Commander, it is guaranteed at least one target: the commander itself. But it also fails to stop many of the other powerful spells that see play in this format. Only the most dedicated countrol decks run that card since they have exhausted their quality counterspell options and need more counterspells to plug gaps in their game plan.



No, the cheap counterspells are the good ones. These are the ones that everyone and their grandmother splashes blue for to add them to their deck and floods people with them. This is because of how universal they are, that any deck without them is instant inferior to any deck with them. That's the problem.

This is where critical thinking comes in. As I have mentioned in my previous post, players can choose to reserve their best spells and pressure the control player to react. In reacting, the control player uses at least part of his mana, giving the other player a window of opportunity to cram in more threats. In the face of possible countermagic, many novices make the mistake of playing their best spells first and hoping they stick. What you would notice if you watch those games is that the counterspell player would eventually run out of counterspells, but the novice player has also run out of quality cards, giving the control player total freedom to cast a game-changer like Mind Spring. If you can't afford to wait to cast a card, then just run it into possible countermagic. Due to variance in this game, good players have to bluff counterspells more often than you would think. That control player might simply be holding a Negate against your Stoneforge Mystic.



Except that they can't, because the longer the game goes the easier it is for the blue-toting opponent to wrap a game up. but with such a derth of cheap counters he can then interact more in the early game, then draw cards and have more counters for the late game. No other colour has the ability to spend all it's early removal like that and then refuel on cards and do it al over again. And, no other colour can even effortlessly remove any kind of permanent like Blue can.

I wonder what this rule is for:
"Bad sportsmanship or other rules violations may result in match loss, disqualification, suspension, or banning. Offense and punishment will be decided at the host's discretion."

What joke of a tournament would it be if players won not because they had played well and brought the best deck, but because they avoided people whom they would lose against? Like you mentioned in that thread, one would not even need to consider the metagame when building his deck.



For those who show poor sportsmanship in games. I don't really know what you're trying to get at here, unless you're launching a personal attack on me and the way I have ran these events?

People avoid what they don't want to play all the time. It's only nature when you have an online game and people in different time zones. There's no way you can penalize someone for not meeting all of their matches. But you can encourage people to play more of their matches by helping to take a great power one particular archetype has over everything else and making things more even.

Please cite your source
, especially with regard to opinions which cannot be easily verified. Also, note that opinions are simply that. For every person you find in favor of something, you could just as easily find two who are against it.


Source? How about every player who whines in the rumour mill section of MTGS a another three-cmc counter, or another X counter like Syncopate getting printed? How about all those people clamouring for a reprint of Remand and Counterspell, in a format with Snapcaster Mage?

I'll pose the same question to you, but with a different card in place of Counterspell so you can see how the logic is flawed.

"Why do you think Mind Twist/Umezawa's Jitte/Land Tax will never see the light of day in a standard set again?"



Because all of these cards are answered by that same universal answer that you keep championing for? What is so hard to see here that a universal answer for two cmc is too strong?

All the cards I have Commander is not Standard. The card pool for Commander is more akin to Legacy than it is to Standard. Counterspell is good, but it swims with the big fishes. Mind Twist is banned in Legacy. Land Tax used to be banned until about a year ago. Yet, both are legal in Commander. Even when you examine Legacy, you hardly see Counterspell making its way into decklists. Daze and Force of Will are played 
because they help protect combos or disrupt them.

Different formats. If you could only play one Daze and FoW, you'd see more Counterspell. Since you can play four-ofs however, the need for the ninth - twelfth counter is moot in Legacy. Especially with cards like Abrupt Decay in that format.

Force Spike on a GSZ for Dryad Arbor is an equal exchange of cards. However, Force Spike cannot interfere if the GSZ caster is on the play. Neither can it stop spells if the caster leaves one mana up. If you suspect or see a soft counter like Force Spike, you can play around it. That would effectively make your opponent waste a card (force Spike in hand) and a mana (left up to counter) for each turn. This is why I dislike drawing Force Spike anywhere but in the early game. It makes for a bad topdeck and is practically a dead card if your opponent is ahead on mana or is playing around it.



This is not a valid counter-point. So one must always inhibit their spellcasting because one may have one of these spells? If just the threat of having a counter is looming, and an opponent is "playing around" it, then the counters-toting player has already won. He has already kept his opponent from doing what he needs to do, and playing any cards in a reasonable time frame. Spot removal doesn't have this kind of impact on stuff. Only the infringing counterspells.

The trick with getting hate spells to resolve is similar to how you get past countermagic in general. I have detailed it above, so you might want to read it again. Chose the right moment to cast the spell and you can ride it to victory. With so few counterspells bearing alternate counterspells, of course there is a dearth of "free" countermagic! And "free" here doesn't necessarily mean playing them without cost. Look at the sacrifices required to play them (tempo and card advantage). In Jenara, when I have Force of Will in hand, I either never cast it, cast it for its alternate cost, and cast it for full mana cost at roughly equal frequencies.



The problem with this is the counters are lower in cmc than the hate spells even. So even if you get to a point to play the bait spell then follow-up with the hate spell, the odds of having a counter up is still high anyway. Again, there's just too many at too small a cmc. And it makes it almost impossible to play anything that isn't discard based or your own counter based.

Because other colors suit your playstyle better and still allow you to win? You have rehashed these two quotes one time too many. I have explained to you why you are incorrect, but you stubbonly refuse to remove the wool over your eyes and wax in your ears. Look at the previous tournament results, for goodness sake! Plot a graph of counterspell quantity vs win rate if you need help visualizing.



But they don't, because they are still out-sourced by the cheap counters. Seriously, I sound like a broken record by now. Or if they do "win" it is because they have to specifically avoid said counters players, because those counters are OP for their cost. Players get lazy and just rely on forty lives and a handful of counters to solve all of their problems -- which has always been a problem in this format.

I am actually not surprised you lost to blue decks with your hate deck. You played a ton of unfocused hate with little regard for card quality and appropriateness. Why are you playing cards like Gaea's Revenge and Terra Stomper when you hardly have any ramp? Seeds of Innocence, Sacred Ground, Karma, Ivory Mask, etc are all cards a blue player would be pleased to see in his opponent's hand. You have plenty of situational cards like those. Therefore, regardless of the deck you are up against, you will always have dead cards. That is not a good thing. What is the point of getting a Great Sable Stag onto the battlefield against someone with counterspells when all you can follow it up with are Compost and Rest in Peace?

Even with such an odd deck, you still managed to win against a heavy control version of Ruhan of the Fomori and won one game against my Jenara when you had Choke on the battlefield. In the other 2 games, your deck was too durdly and hardly played anything significant. I did not cast even a single counterspell in the third game (I had none).



I don't really see how commenting on my deck for the week is relevant here but I digress. Cards like the Revenge and Stomper are for a lack of uncounterable threats. and they did well against the Ruhan deck because it showed that he relied on counterspells to solve all of his problems.

Anyway, if you ban counterspells or greatly restrict their use, you are only opening up another can of worms. The Magic ecosystem comprises of decks which keep each other in check. When you kill off a major component, decks which were previously prey can now dominate. In a simple analogy, if you ban the use of rock in a game of rock-paper-scissors, scissors will quickly dominate. Soon, everyone would only play scissors because paper can never win and scissors can never lose. MtG is much more complex than that, but with your heavy-handed management of the banlist, you run the risk of creating something similar. 



Nice hyperbole. Also more comments about the way I "handle" the list? For shame man, for shame. If the use of such a crutch is restricted a bit, then players will be able to actually enjoy playign the game. And, hey, seven counters in a deck is fair, without allowing one to go overboard and troll his opponent. This opens up more interaction between players and forces players to actually use critical thinking skills when they build their deck instead of "oh, Counters. Need moar counters." (See, I can use hyperbole too).

One option: if there is going to be a limit of how much counterspells can be used per deck, then it would only be fair to how much spot removal can be used per deck also, as well as how much discard, how much creatures, how musch land destruciton cards..., lol you see where this is going, limiting blue's only weapon against other decks is biased for blue players (given there are only 2 to 3 other blue players in the league). Blue has counters and card draw/ Black has discard, spot removal, extremely cheap tutors/green has ridiculous amounts of quality ramp, terrifying large creatures/Red has a ridiculous amount of land destruction/white has quite a bit of life gain and exiling going on. Each colour has it's specific speciality and each keeps each other in check. Quite true in our league where a specific archetype is kept in check by another archetype.



This would make sense if removal was as strong as counters are. Why limit that Doom Blade or that Swords to Plowshares when they do one thing (kill creatures) while that Mana Leak and Counterspell do much, much more than that (kill creatures, planeswalkers, enchantments, even sorceries and instants)? Your admission of "blue's only strength" even tells me the same thing that counters are all anyone needs to rely on. Limited that forces crafty players to find other means, such as the two spot removals blue has (Pongify and Rapid Hybridization) but you also have theft spells like Treachery and Control Magic and the always ridiculously under-costed Bribery (and that's really a discussion in it's own right, tbqh) as well as multi-purpose bounce to deal with a myriad of permanents too. Clearly, counterspells are not the only way to deal with problems.[/font]

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

Quite a long post below. Would not want to  requote everything.

Just my last 2 cents. You should know, I am aware that you might know (going to quote my only 2 blue decks again Grand Arbiter Augustine IVand Ruhan of the Fomori ) , each card in those decks were specifically researched and tested, and henceforth submitted to the league. Pretty sure the same would have been done with Dyspeth's Jenara list. You do not just throw in a vast amount of counters and that is a deck. It is much harder to determine what blend of conter vs non-counter spells to put in. You would have noticed overall cards being added/removed, to more better deal with the meta game. To reiterate: throwing in a plethora of counters does not make a deck.

Does competitive not stand for: researching what would work, playtesting quite hard, getting input from the community, and then playing it in a tournament enviroment? given most people play similar decklists for each league week, it does not become hard to knw that a situational counter like Remove soul would be good, given some people's reliance on infinite damage, cough, niv, a card like Negate would be a superstar, all about making an assumption of what people might play, then fine tune your decklist that way. 

Maybe why not just say: no blue allowed in the league? That seems to be where this is going towards, rather than limit the colours potential by putting caps on how much of a certain card type can be put into the deck. You may have noted that even though the Vendillion Clique deck that was played a while ago in the league was packed full of counters, it did not have the right balance, thus negating the theory that popping in all the counters and putting a commander there wins the game. 

So, why not just jump the gun now and just say: NO BLUE ALLOWED. Would save the argument of saying only 7 counters allowed, etc... and give people what they want. Let us not play around here, playing against blue is never easy, but the same can be said for certain black decks that rely on destroying you hand, or dertain red decks that rely on destroying your land base. 

Yip, quite emotional, Cool, but let us not beat around the bush here. I love playing in the league though, given different strategies, different competitve decks. I never complained when playing against Sygg, or the ever scary Zur/Arcum deck, to each their own, but people should be able to play the best deck they can make and play it against other players best decks (it is called ELDER DRAGON HIGHLANDER after all, lol THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE), otherwise what is the point.

trainboy Standings

W vs
Hopachi W 2-1
Gordani W 2-1
Sfilho W 2-1
_Big_Brothers_ W 2-1
Niabock W 2-1


L vs 
the_arend L 0-2
3drinks L 1-2
Yokai_ L 0-2
Shikogpro L 0-2
Cleomar L 0-2

Overdrive! 1.86SilverBlack 3.09SilverBlack Nemesis 1.09
Quite a long post below. Would not want to  requote everything.

Just my last 2 cents. You should know, I am aware that you might know (going to quote my only 2 blue decks again Grand Arbiter Augustine IVand Ruhan of the Fomori ) , each card in those decks were specifically researched and tested, and henceforth submitted to the league. Pretty sure the same would have been done with Dyspeth's Jenara list. You do not just throw in a vast amount of counters and that is a deck. It is much harder to determine what blend of conter vs non-counter spells to put in. You would have noticed overall cards being added/removed, to more better deal with the meta game. To reiterate: throwing in a plethora of counters does not make a deck.

Does competitive not stand for: researching what would work, playtesting quite hard, getting input from the community, and then playing it in a tournament enviroment? given most people play similar decklists for each league week, it does not become hard to knw that a situational counter like Remove soul would be good, given some people's reliance on infinite damage, cough, niv, a card like Negate would be a superstar, all about making an assumption of what people might play, then fine tune your decklist that way.



I'd like to believe that the metagame has shaped very dramatically over the last several months we've all been playing together. And I'd like to say the metagame has been diverse along the way. But if things keep going the way they are, I worry people will stop having fun in these events. If they stop having fun, they will stop playing (naturally, if you're not having fun, then why play, afterall). I understand playing a deck a certain length of time and tweaking it each weeks, but going in the direction of needing more counters will eventually create a subsect of players in those that enjoy that, and those that don't enjoy that or even grow bored with that. I don't want there to be some division in the player base over this topic or over a player's individual deck choices.

The real question here is; where does the metagame go from here? With things being decided by counterspells, how are the other decks supposed to even keep up? If playing creatures that can't be countered aren't good enough to break through the multitude of Remove Souls, then where does that leave this league? Something has to be done, before the counter-happy decks lead to stagnation...or before the counter-happy decks get avoided by certain players. I want to do something before either of those options happens.

Maybe why not just say: no blue allowed in the league? That seems to be where this is going towards, rather than limit the colours potential by putting caps on how much of a certain card type can be put into the deck. You may have noted that even though the Vendillion Clique deck that was played a while ago in the league was packed full of counters, it did not have the right balance, thus negating the theory that popping in all the counters and putting a commander there wins the game. 

So, why not just jump the gun now and just say: NO BLUE ALLOWED. Would save the argument of saying only 7 counters allowed, etc... and give people what they want. Let us not play around here, playing against blue is never easy, but the same can be said for certain black decks that rely on destroying you hand, or dertain red decks that rely on destroying your land base. 

Yip, quite emotional, , but let us not beat around the bush here. I love playing in the league though, given different strategies, different competitve decks. I never complained when playing against Sygg, or the ever scary Zur/Arcum deck, to each their own, but people should be able to play the best deck they can make and play it against other players best decks (it is called ELDER DRAGON HIGHLANDER after all, lol THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE), otherwise what is the point.



I think this is a bit of hyperbole here. No one is saying ban the colour outright (though the prospect of just banning all lands with the Island subtype is entertaining enough xD). But why is it that if people are disgruntled with counters, it automatically means they want to kill the whole colour? There's plenty of other methods that players can use in Blue that don't have to do with counters. Just because people are agitated at the number of counters players utilize does not mean they want to get rid of the whole colour.

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

Oh Lordy Lord, the blue players now have to use skill on what they counter and cant shut people down startign from turn 2 till the game ends. THey gonna go deep and dumb when they have to use some damn skill.
 if you ask me its a bout damn tyme, i cant count the number of tymes ive lose to counter draw go. if blue players cant deal with the fact they haveto think about what they are doing rather than just derp out 4 coutners a turn,
maybe they should just leave and keep those of us who can play with some skill in mynd around. cut the fat off so to speak.

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.05)

Okay, so I've heard this complaint from some number of other players, and in the interest of fairness to everybody involved, i want to "institute" one of the following rules. One of these will be going into effect, but I will leave this here for everyone to discuss.

"All cards with the text of 'counter target spell' and variants thereof with a converted mana cost of two or less will be banned (this includes those with an X in their cost, like Syncopate, for example)."

"Any counterspell regardless of mana cost is legal to be played (except those on the actual banlist, naturally). However, a deck may contain no more than seven such counterspells in their deck."

Both of these options address the other players concerns about the abundance of cheap countermagic making it impossible to play and/or enjoy other strategies. While these may seem like extreme courses of action, I feel it is all we can do to ensure that all players are able to enjoy the game as a whole. Cheap countermagic is such a problem as it provides a way too easily accessible universal answer to any kind of spell any opponent would bring. It's one thing to pack Doom Blades and Naturalizes to handle a single type of threat, but when that one Counterspell can fulfill either role and then some, something needs to be done. Either of these, I feel, will be the best course of action to handle such a situation. So, now I open the floor up to discussion on which they would prefer.



Given the above is going to happen either way, when will it be instigated? Current league week or in 2.09?
Given the above is going to happen either way, when will it be instigated? Current league week or in 2.09?



I want to institute something at least as a trial basis starting in 2.09 as it wouldn't be fair to the other players to give this short of notice on such a change since the current 2.08 will start in about thirty-six hours from now.

Even if such a drastic measure is not a permanent basis, I want to at least see how it effects the other players, if the meta can continue to provide diverse results or not. To get more people encouraged to want to play against everyone. As the event host, this is my ultimate goal. If it turns out it doesn't get the people to want to play everyone anyway, then I will probably revert back, I guess.

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

While I disagree with the premise of banning counterspells because some people deem them too powerful and unfun to play against, I do appreciate that you would review your decision based on how the tournament progresses. So far, only one person has voted on the counterspell rules. I find the 7 counterspell rule to be the lesser of two evils, so I'll put my vote behind that as well. It might turn out to be an administrative burden, though.

Apologies to anyone who had been affected by my screenshot stretching the thread. There were no such problems on computer or phone. The screenshot has now been tucked into a spoiler alert.

Also, I understand that some of my strongly-worded statements might have been construed as personal attacks. That was not my intention. They are just to point out where I see opinions being presented as facts and actual facts being swept under the rug.

 
All this tension and fuss of counter magic. Several good points have been made and we all know that we are in it to win it. Anyways back to the counter spell rule I think the limitation on them will be fine. My Azami deck has 8 counters in it and it wouldn't be at all hard to take one of them out for something else. So I think that having the limit on counters will be fine. I'd rather have them in the format over the, "oh we should now ban combo pieces, because there is no good control to stop them" chatter start up afterwards.
Overdrive! 1.86SilverBlack 3.09SilverBlack Nemesis 1.09
All this tension and fuss of counter magic. Several good points have been made and we all know that we are in it to win it. Anyways back to the counter spell rule I think the limitation on them will be fine. My Azami deck has 8 counters in it and it wouldn't be at all hard to take one of them out for something else. So I think that having the limit on counters will be fine. I'd rather have them in the format over the, "oh we should now ban combo pieces, because there is no good control to stop them" chatter start up afterwards.



Yip, opens up the door for some crazy infinite combo's to take place. Might as well throw the vote in, say limit to 7 counter, these being the instants (no limit on the creatures with built in counters such as Mystic Snake and Draining Whelk and the like I assume).
While I disagree with the premise of banning counterspells because some people deem them too powerful and unfun to play against, I do appreciate that you would review your decision based on how the tournament progresses. So far, only one person has voted on the counterspell rules. I find the 7 counterspell rule to be the lesser of two evils, so I'll put my vote behind that as well. It might turn out to be an administrative burden, though.



All this tension and fuss of counter magic. Several good points have been made and we all know that we are in it to win it. Anyways back to the counter spell rule I think the limitation on them will be fine. My Azami deck has 8 counters in it and it wouldn't be at all hard to take one of them out for something else. So I think that having the limit on counters will be fine. I'd rather have them in the format over the, "oh we should now ban combo pieces, because there is no good control to stop them" chatter start up afterwards.



Yip, opens up the door for some crazy infinite combo's to take place. Might as well throw the vote in, say limit to 7 counter, these being the instants (no limit on the creatures with built in counters such as Mystic Snake and Draining Whelk and the like I assume).



Yeah, I assume it will seem an administrative burden to manage effectively, but I do believe it is for probably for the better, if it gets other people to be more receptive to playing everybody more often. As for the creature-counters, while it will probably be a judgment call on my part, I reckon these won't count towards such a limit (neither will Stifle, Interdict, and their ilk) as these probably weren't part of the problem people brought up to me anyway (I can't imagine a single four and six mana card in ninety-nine adding to the frustration of others because at those costs, they are more than fair to be able to predict).

In closing I just want to reaffirm that while yes, this is a competitive venue, this is still a venus that others join for fun. And if a majority of players don't find it fun, then that is bad overall for the league. I know I've only been the event organizer of this league for several months (between six and nine months IIRC), but I'd like to believe that I'm making the right decisions to encourage more and more people  to play and grow with everyone involved.

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

The prizes for the winners of Commander 2.07 are now available at my bots. Please see my signature for how to locate the bots on classifieds. The following received credits:


Dyspeth - 10
Cleomar - 8
Yokai_ - 6
Shikogpro - 6


Best regards,


Kim
The MTGO Bazaar

Owner of The MTGO Bazaar bot chain Search "mtgo bazaar" to find an open bot
the_arend Standings:

W vs trainboy 2 - 0
W vs Gordani 2 - 1 
W vs Sfilho 2 - 0
W vs _BIG_BROTHERS 2 - 0
W vs 
W vs 

L vs Shikogpro 0 - 2
L vs 3drinks 1 - 2
L vs 
L vs 

And Commander 2.08 is officially started! The 2nd post has been updated with the active players accordingly. Currently of the eleven people that have registered, the only person that still needs to submit a list is Cleomar. Anyway, good luck to all involved, and the most important part, have fun and enjoy the matches!

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

Thanks Kim!

Also, good luck to all the participants! May the shuffler and your internet connections be kind. I'll be watching this event from the sidelines. Smile 
I'd like to reg.
I'd like to reg.


I added you. All you need to do is add your list and you're all set.

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

Thank you so much Kim :D 


IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%20Season%202%20Championship)

Niabock:

L 0-2 vs. yokai_
L 0-2 vs. cleomar
L 1-2 vs. trainboy

Off to a good start against two infinite combos.
Can't wait for my internet to be better so I can go back to limited.
I really do not agree with the ban/restrict  couters. I play Mikaeus, my deck thanks this, really, but I cant agree. Why do this? Is boring? Well, ban control decks, LOL. Its a magic archetype, we have to deal with this. You have the option of does not play against decks with counters, you does not must play against them... If you want ban counters, ban Massive/Target Land Destruction, Discards, Combos and any Stax card... Well, only will have Aggro/Midrange decks =X
And Commander 2.08 is closed. Here are the results:
































































































































































Current Standings



Commander 2.08
RankPlayerMatch PointsOMW %PGW %OGW %Matches Played
1Shikogpro220.5080.8180.42310
2Cleomar170.4640.7650.3777
3Yokai_130.4640.6880.3777
4Gordani120.5750.5450.5358
5trainboy100.5380.4230.47710
6the_arend100.4980.6430.4326
73drinks30.5840.4290.5305
87Tacos0.6930.2220.6754
9KaraZorEl0.0000.0000.000
10Lordpyro-10.8000.0000.8181
11_BIG_BROTHERS_-20.6940.2670.6476
12Niabock-30.6900.2500.6253
13hopachi-30.6420.2500.5963
14sfilho-40.6850.1110.6304


Congrats to Shikogpro, who piloted his Rafiq of the Many deck to a first place showing with a record of 8-2. Congrats all, and have a good week, we'll see you all back next Saturday for Commander 2.09!

Host of the only 1v1 Commander League on Magic Online! Need some information about my events? Shoot me a PM or find me on the client under the name "3drinks"!

  • Eight-Time Commander League Champion
  • Writer at PureMTGO.com
  • Author of THE most definitive Kaalia of the Vast  Primer for 1v1 games Viewable here
  • Official Primer Committee Member at MTGSalvation

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.02)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.03)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.04)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.06)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.09)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%201.10)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.01)IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%202.02)

Thanks for the games and see you on CMD 2.09 :D

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%20Season%202%20Championship)

Hi,


The prizes for the winners of Commander 2.08 are now available at my bots. Please see my signature for how to locate the bots on classifieds. The following received credits:


Shikogpro - 10
Cleomar - 8
Yokai_ - 6
Gordani - 6 


With best regards,
Kim
The MTGO Bazaar

Owner of The MTGO Bazaar bot chain Search "mtgo bazaar" to find an open bot
Thanks you so much Kim I always buy on ur family bots The_MTGO_Baazar ftw ! best prices online haha 

Shikogpro :D

IMAGE(http://www.gatherling.com/displayTrophy.php?event=Commander%20Season%202%20Championship)