Thief vs Rogue for Melee Stealth-Ninja

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So, I'm interested in making some sort of melee ninja-type character.  Basically I want a Dex monkey with high Stealth and high DPR.

I'm not sure which to go with: Rogue or Thief.  Both have ways to Stealth with just cover/concealment.

Which is easier to do permastealth with?  I'd like to be able to use the tactic of being stealthed, darting in for the attack (gaining CA because of Stealth), then moving away to stealth again and do it all again next turn.
Sig
Yes, I killed your BBEG with his own lair:
Setting: Tomb with a perilous bridge and cliff 100 feet above a lava pit. Mummy pops out of his sarcophagus, initiative: Felix, Half-Elf Artificer: Twin Strike with crossbow. Trump (ala Donald), Eladrin Warlord: Charges mummy with Opening Shove, pushing off the cliff. Mummy fails saving throw, and falls into pit. Sanshiro (ala Japanese "superhero" Segata), Minotaur Barbarian: Strength check to lift sarcophagus and carry to cliff. Free action, drop sarcophagus into square above mummy. Sarcophagus drops on mummy, shoving him further down into lava. Mummy: proceeds to make a series of horrible athletics checks to swim and climb cliff. Dies a horrible death with lava permeating every orifice. Entire Party: Watches on in delight, faces alit with the glow of lava and flaming undead.
Original CharOpper
I soap myself up, and turn up the hot water in the shower, so my sweat mixes with the soap, slickening my skin: +5 to grapple I use my own legs as a shield since only upper-body hits matter: +5 defense I use my teammates bodies to construct a vehicle for myself, and dual-wield their weapons because as long as I win, we all win: +10 attack, +10 defense I completely ignore the enemy, their attacks, the devastating damage they are dealing to me and my team, and strike directly for their base, completely obliterating them, their way of life, and any chance they had at survival as a species: WIN Ender: The Original CharOpper and Power Gamer.
You realize that permastealth encourages your DM to focus fire (generally a Bad Thing), right?
I do.  I've had that conversation many times with people on the forums.  My builds are normally more thought processes or themed builds.  Most of them never see the light of day.

I was rewatching Batman Begins the other day and was inspired to make a melee Stealth build.  I've made plenty of ranged perma-stealth builds, but never a melee one.
Sig
Yes, I killed your BBEG with his own lair:
Setting: Tomb with a perilous bridge and cliff 100 feet above a lava pit. Mummy pops out of his sarcophagus, initiative: Felix, Half-Elf Artificer: Twin Strike with crossbow. Trump (ala Donald), Eladrin Warlord: Charges mummy with Opening Shove, pushing off the cliff. Mummy fails saving throw, and falls into pit. Sanshiro (ala Japanese "superhero" Segata), Minotaur Barbarian: Strength check to lift sarcophagus and carry to cliff. Free action, drop sarcophagus into square above mummy. Sarcophagus drops on mummy, shoving him further down into lava. Mummy: proceeds to make a series of horrible athletics checks to swim and climb cliff. Dies a horrible death with lava permeating every orifice. Entire Party: Watches on in delight, faces alit with the glow of lava and flaming undead.
Original CharOpper
I soap myself up, and turn up the hot water in the shower, so my sweat mixes with the soap, slickening my skin: +5 to grapple I use my own legs as a shield since only upper-body hits matter: +5 defense I use my teammates bodies to construct a vehicle for myself, and dual-wield their weapons because as long as I win, we all win: +10 attack, +10 defense I completely ignore the enemy, their attacks, the devastating damage they are dealing to me and my team, and strike directly for their base, completely obliterating them, their way of life, and any chance they had at survival as a species: WIN Ender: The Original CharOpper and Power Gamer.
For what it's worth, the Master Thief PP for the Thief class is the only way to get true perma-stealth, remaining hidden even when attacking. So if you want the enemy to NEVER know where you are, then that would be the way to go. Otherwise you have to rely on things that let you move as a separate action after you attack so you can re-hide, but even then the enemy will know the square you became hidden in unless you can move again once hidden...
Yeah, that's how I feel as well.

I'd be ok with the enemy still "knowing" what square I was in.  Our DM doesn't usually waste an enemies turn by trying to attack stealth builds, even if they technically know the last square it was in.  After all, if you were a rational enemy, would you want to risk wasting a turn to make an attack against somewhere that you think an enemy was in when you could attack an enemy you can see?

So, if a Rogue could reliably stealth after attack, I'd be ok with it.  That would still mean always using an attack with movement built in though.

Just curious:  has anyone ever looked into a Rogue build that uses a Khopesh, using Versatile Duelist?  It seems like it could be a decent build to combine both heavy blade and axe support, but maybe not as good as just sticking with a light blade.
Sig
Yes, I killed your BBEG with his own lair:
Setting: Tomb with a perilous bridge and cliff 100 feet above a lava pit. Mummy pops out of his sarcophagus, initiative: Felix, Half-Elf Artificer: Twin Strike with crossbow. Trump (ala Donald), Eladrin Warlord: Charges mummy with Opening Shove, pushing off the cliff. Mummy fails saving throw, and falls into pit. Sanshiro (ala Japanese "superhero" Segata), Minotaur Barbarian: Strength check to lift sarcophagus and carry to cliff. Free action, drop sarcophagus into square above mummy. Sarcophagus drops on mummy, shoving him further down into lava. Mummy: proceeds to make a series of horrible athletics checks to swim and climb cliff. Dies a horrible death with lava permeating every orifice. Entire Party: Watches on in delight, faces alit with the glow of lava and flaming undead.
Original CharOpper
I soap myself up, and turn up the hot water in the shower, so my sweat mixes with the soap, slickening my skin: +5 to grapple I use my own legs as a shield since only upper-body hits matter: +5 defense I use my teammates bodies to construct a vehicle for myself, and dual-wield their weapons because as long as I win, we all win: +10 attack, +10 defense I completely ignore the enemy, their attacks, the devastating damage they are dealing to me and my team, and strike directly for their base, completely obliterating them, their way of life, and any chance they had at survival as a species: WIN Ender: The Original CharOpper and Power Gamer.
Just curious:  has anyone ever looked into a Rogue build that uses a Khopesh, using Versatile Duelist?  It seems like it could be a decent build to combine both heavy blade and axe support, but maybe not as good as just sticking with a light blade.



Seems like an awful lot of investment just to decrease your hit rate by 10%. Versatile Duelist has its obvious use (HBO + Deft Strike + Ghostwalker Style), but what axe support are you refering to that would be relevant here? Note also that VD does not function at all with Thieves (specifically requires Rogue Powers).

Also, I'm gonna favor Cunning Sneak over Thief on this one, because if you're going to make your other party members be focus fired more often, you might as well have a credible nova (aka real encounter and daily powers) to make up for it.
Eladrin hybrid fey warlock executioner assassin?  At paragon levels, there's an eladrin fey warlock feat makes you invisible when you hit your cursed target, and there's an assassin feat lets you make hide check as a free action when you become invisible, then move while hidden and invisible and nobody knows where you are.  Respectable DPR from hybrid warlock and executioner striker features both stacking on Eldritch strike, which can be used with a rapier for assorted light blade shenans.  Ki focus proficiency keeps you up to date on enhancement mods for weapon and implement attacks until you can spare a feat to make light blades implements.  Rogue multiclass can add some useful bits to the pile (surprising charge, 2d6 extra spike damage per encounter, power swap for knockout if you can manage an attack calaber dex - though be warned, the builder doesn't handle power swaps so well on hybrid characters, especially hybrid executioners that traded some of their dailies for poison use, so you might have to use the 'houserule' option to add the power and just leave the slot you were going to trade for it empty).

Out of combat, you can get shadowwalk for a feat and darting shadow and shadow blend as at will utilities for stealth while moving or standing still, and can pick up executioner poisons in place of daily powers to have something interesting to do with all that stealth when you aren't using it to stab enemies in the back with a sword.  Eladrin don't have darkvision naturally, which is something you might want for a stealther, but there is an assassin paragon feat to pick that up as well.
Pixie is a prime race.

High DPR from perma-stealth builds come from getting OA's more then anything else.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

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