POLL: Cleric and Wizard Spell Slots -- Do they have enough? Just the right amount? Or too many?

Mike Mearls recently stated that the Cleric and Wizard are almost done. I agree that they're looking good, but after play-testing both classes, I disagree that their 'Spell Slots' are anywhere close to ready. Keep in mind, 'Spell Slots' are not to be confused with 'Spells Prepared' -- the number of spells Clerics and Wizards can ready for casting each day. Spell Slots are the number of Spells Prepared a Cleric or Wizard can cast each day. At present, I find both classes to be woefully destitute in spell slots, especially the wizard, for whom spellcasting is really their only trick.

Looking at the latest Cleric -- from level 11 to level 16 -- they only gain 1 new spell slot every two levels. After that -- from level 17 to 20 -- they don't gain spell slots at all. It's the exact same for the Wizard.

This might not have seemed so miserly if Clerics and Wizards still gained 'bonus spell slots' from high ability scores, but they don't. That convention ended with 3rd edition.

Right now, a D&D Next 20th level Cleric gains 15 spell slots in total. A 20th level Wizard gains 19 spell slots in total.

Those totals felt extremely frugal to me during my play-tests of both classes. Wizards became cantrip-spammers after one or two battles and clerics are reviled if they dare cast anything that doesn't have the word 'Cure' in it. Unless there are plans for daily spell slots to refresh more frequently or Cleric healing to become a decoupled power seperate from their spells, these two classes are getting short changed. With that in mind, I looked back at spell slots for 3rd edition Clerics and Wizards...

A 20th level Cleric (with domain spells) had 50 spell slots (not counting orisons). Factor in bonus spell slots from a high ability score and that number easily rose to 60 spell slots.

A 20th level Wizard (with specialist spells) had 45 spell slots (not counting cantrips). Factor in bonus spell slots from a high ability score again and that number easily rose to 55 spell slots.

To be clear, I don't think these numbers are even remotely workable for D&D 5th edition, but the current totals of 15 for Clerics and 19 for Wizards (by 20th level) aren't suitable either. The latest spell slot totals leave both classes unprepared for their roles as spellcasters, especially the wizard, who can't even fall back on melee combat like the Cleric.

I'm on board with the philosophy of scaling back 'the-bloat-of-too-many-abilities', but I'm not advocating more 'Prepared Spells' with this post. I'm advocating more spells slots to cast those Prepared Spells. Essentially, the number of spells 5th edition Clerics and Wizards prepare each day wouldn't change, but they'd be able to cast, say, 10 more of them by 20th level. That's one solution. There are several.

As such, in addition to the POLL, you will find six possible solutions (below) that address the lack of adequate spell slots for Clerics and Wizards.

-----

Solution One: Give them more spell slots.

Solution Two: Keep the existing spell slot progressions (or something similar to them) and let Clerics and Wizards slowly recover spell slots throughout the day with 10 minute rests. For example, a 10 minute rest would earn back one 1st level spell. A 20 minute rest would earn back two 1st level spells or one 2nd level spell, etcetera. You would still need an extended rest to 're-prepare' your spells for that day. An extended rest would also replenish all your spell slots.

Solution Three: Give Clerics and Wizards a Signature Spell for the first five spell levels they can cast. For Wizards, these could be changed after each extended rest, but would always be drawn from the school of their chosen Tradition. They would replenish quickly, possibly after a 10 minute rest. For Clerics, these Signature Spells would always be their Domain Spells.

Solution Four: Create a condition-based consequence for casting without an available spell slot. The Cleric or Wizard is restrained or stunned or rendered unconscious (possibly in that order to represent increasing physical cost) until the beginning or end of their next turn.

Solution Five: Allow Wizards a chance to 'retain' spell slots -- as they are being cast -- through force of will, possibly by making a Concentration check with an appropriate DC to represent increasing difficulty (DC 10 + spell level). Failure means the spell is cast and gone. You could limit failing at this ability to a certain number of times per day or just grant a certain number of automatic successes per day.

Solution Six: Decouple healing from spells, make it a limited resource power for Clerics, allowing them to cast other 'non-obligatory' spells while still keeping their party alive.

-----

Having said as much, I'd like to know what everybody else thinks about spell slots. The poll is embedded below.

Do Clerics and Wizards have enough spell slots in the current play-test?


The cleric needs less.

THey both need tighter limits on their access to which spells they can prep. 
The cleric needs less.

THey both need tighter limits on their access to which spells they can prep. 



Exactly.

The cleric needs to be drawing from only a limited number of spells.

The wizard needs to have a FAR smaller number of spells available.

And neither needs more spells per day.

The caster classes are already VASTLY more flexible and outright capable (not to mention interesting to play) than everything else in the playtest. 
Too daily.

Needs non-daily refreshes.

Partial refresh per-1-hour rest, means less spell slots/spell points are necessary.      
I think they have too few, but they're not far off. Even one extra per level per day would probably do it.
Wizards need to get back the signature spells. They need more spells, but definitely don't need more choices.

I don't really see that clerics need anything at all; they arae in a good place.

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Clerics are a hybrid class, they should never have as much spell-casting capability as a pure caster. I'd rather see the cleric become the poster child class for all martial/magical hybrids, and then have an arcane equivalent class.

There needs to be a standard progression for full and partial casters, regardless of power source. A pure caster (arcane, divine, et al) should have the maximum number of prepped and slots (or equivalent casting style). If the class gets some martial features, be it armor or weapons, then they should have a slower progression in some capacity. There's 3 ways to restrict a slot-based spell system: reduce rate of higher spell slot acquisition (like 3e sorcerer), reduce the spell slots (and probably spells prepped too), or reduce the maximum spell level attainable (cap early, like 3e bards).

We need a progression chart for 25/50/75/100% casters. Something like this:
25% caster




































































































































































































LevelSpells per Day
1st2nd3rd4th5th
1st1
2nd1
3rd2
4th21
5th21
6th22
7th221
8th221
9th222
10th2221
11th2221
12th2222
13th22221
14th22221
15th22222
16th22222
17th22222
18th22222
19th22222
20th22222


50% caster

























































































































































































































LevelSpells per Day
1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
1st1
2nd2
3rd3
4th31
5th32
6th33
7th331
8th332
9th333
10th3331
11th3332
12th3333
13th33331
14th33332
15th33333
16th333331
17th333331
18th333331
19th333331
20th333331


75% caster

























































































































































































































































































Level Spells per Day
1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
1st*1
2nd*2
3rd*21
4th*22
5th*321
6th*322
7th*3321
8th*3322
9th*33321
10th*33322
11th*33332
12th*333321
13th*333331
14th*3333311
15th*3333311
16th*33333111
17th*33333111
18th*333331111
19th*333331111
20th*333331111


100% caster

























































































































































































































































































Level Spells per Day
1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
1st*2
2nd*4
3rd*42
4th*44
5th*442
6th*444
7th*4442
8th*4444
9th*44442
10th*44444
11th*444441
12th*444441
13th*4444411
14th*4444411
15th*44444111
16th*44444111
17th*444441111
18th*444441111
19th*444441111
20th*444441111



Note: updated 75% and 100% casters.

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Add a slot to each level and its set to go.
Neither of them has anything resembling enough spell slots. Our Cleric has three first level slots and that's all he will ever have, at level 3 and at level 20. Right now if he hopes to have a few Cure Light Wounds (there are three other characters in the party), he can at best use one of those slots for something else. Since I don't think CLerics should be relegated to being the healbot, the number of spell slots avilable is terrible. For the Wizard, the extremely low number of spells per day forces overreliance on cantrips, which looks like it must continue even to higher levels. One of the appeals of playing a Wizard is learning new spells and using them.

One of the biggest problems with the game.
They need to get rid of the old spell list. They NEED to do it.

It was fine back in the 80's when no one knew any better, but these days there is no reason to have "spell levels" and 8 slightly more powerful versions of "Hold ___".

They need to get rid of spell levels 1-9 entirely and male each spell scalable from character levels 1-20. This will make their proposed multiclassing system viable.

Then they need to fold all of the redundant spells into one, so Charm Person, Charm Monster, Mass Charm Person, etc. becomes a single spell called "Charm"which gains power as the caster gains expereince. This will create stronger decision points for players, and will free up page space for extra material. It may even allow for a lower price point if the pages are omitted entirely.

Then they need to pare down the alloted spells per day to a more manageable 12-15 or so (along with at-will cantrips). If you look at the current progression, at the uppermost levels, Wizards get 29 spells 16 of which they will almost never use because they will have become obsolete...so paring the alotment down to 15 spells that are useful across ALL levels maintains parity with what casters get now. Also, this makes generating higher level PC's and NPC's quicker and easier.

Some of the more powerful spells can have prerequisites, like you have to learn Phase Shift and Summon Monster before you can learn Planar Binding, OR you can simply move these spells to the realm of rituals.






 They tried that in 4th kind of and it provoked a big backlash. THe wizard class has to more or less resemble the pre 4th ed wizard which means some sort of spells per day table. The individual spells lack the power they had in 3.5 with maybe the exception of polymorph and I will be surprised if they let that one through RAW.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

They tried that in 4th kind of and it provoked a big backlash.

I'd say they did the opposite:  they exploded the page count by giving each class an entirely unique spell list.
I think you might be in the wrong forum, guy. The 3.x threads are in the older edition forums section. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Incidentally, the sticking point for traditionalists is that spells be alotted on a per diem basis, and not the organization and structure of said spells. No one in their right mind is going to miss spell levels once they are gone.

I can't help but feel like you're not the most reliable source for an accurate assessment of what traditionalists want.
Secret option C.

They need more spell slots at lower levels and fewer spell slots at higher levels (more heavily concentrated at the upper end).  This idea that high level wizards should have ten times as many spell slots as low level wizards needs to go.  It makes low level wizards a bore, high level wizards a pain, breaks the game when you provide low level spells with non-diminishing utility (read: anything but damage), makes it almost impossible to balance wizards at both high and low levels, and it serves no good purpose.  There's plenty of room for growth in more spells known and more powerful slots.

The wizard class is balanced on the principle that his at-wills are less effective than a martial class, but his dailies are more effective.  If the day length is right, this evens out: he's twice as effective one round, but half as effective the next two, so both get three rounds worth of effectiveness.  On a short day he overpowers, on a long day he underwhelms, but if you guess the average right it all works out.  I'm not going to go into whether that's a good system, it's the system we've got and the system we're stuck with.  But if the wizard gets more spell slots as he levels, he gets more chances to be more effective than the martial classes.  Sure, only his best spells are going to out damage a fighter, but hold person, levitate, and invisibility are pretty much as useful at level 20 as they were the day you got them.  Outclassing the fighter more often means you have to outclass him by less, and/or you need him to outclass your at-wills by more.  But most of your spells are non-damaging, and non-damage affects already auto-scale in effectiveness, so to make an 9th level control or utility spell better than a first level control or utility spell it needs to be pretty awesome.  That makes outclassing the fighter by less pretty hard, especially since you don't want to upset the "fighters aren't magical" brigade by scaling fighters too fast.  You also don't want to push cantrips so far down that they're equivalent to doing nothing, or the wizard is going to be really bored on a long, high level day (and for those of you who are about to say "but use it in an imaginative way so it's still fun," if you're using it in an imaginative way that's still contributing, then you're still outclassing the fighter and you haven't fixed the problem even if you haven't created a new one in the form of a bored wizard).  Increasing wizard spells/day thus creates nearly insurmountable balance problems.  

If on the other hand, spells/day are constant or nearly constant and only your spell power scales in tandem to the at-will classes, everything works out fine.  Half the time his at-wills are trumping your at wills, the other half of the time your dailies are trumping his at wills, and the only thing that changes is what level your spells are.  Plus, you can give low level wizards things to do without creeping towards high level wizards with 50 spell slots to keep track of.
They tried that in 4th kind of and it provoked a big backlash.



And by not changing anything, they will also provoke a big backlash. Blacklashes are unavoidable...so the only recourse is to make good design decisions.

D&DN is not exactly resplendent with good design decisions.

THe wizard class has to more or less resemble the pre 4th ed wizard which means some sort of spells per day table.



I think you might be in the wrong forum, guy. The 3.x threads are in the older edition forums section. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Incidentally, the sticking point for traditionalists is that spells be alotted on a per diem basis, and not the organization and structure of said spells. No one in their right mind is going to miss spell levels once they are gone.









 You yourself have admitted on these forums that what you perosnally like is not what other D&D players want. BECM, 1st ed, 2nd ed and 3rd ed athe wizard was basically unchanged despite mechanical difference between the spell effects, a slightly different spell progression table and the addition of feats and skills in 3rd ed. Wizard meroises spells, gets a daily alotment, and they are expended on casting them.

 I want the traditional wizard and its what D&DN is supplying although it has been changed a bit with the additon of at wills and the spell table is not that radically different from pre 4th ed verisons of the wizard. IIRC each edition ahs had a slightly different spell table. 

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Too daily. Needs non-daily refreshes. Partial refresh per-1-hour rest, means less spell slots/spell points are necessary.     

Wizards need to get back the signature spells.

Yes to both. To be honest, I'd like an option to get rid of all daily powers and convert them into encounter ones. Either that or change dailies into day long use powers like 4e druids cat's grace or owl's wisdom.
I feel that both classes (Wizard and Cleric) have about the right amount of spells for a typical adventuring day. Keeping in mind that Cantrips and Orisons both scale with level, they're going to be used considerably over the course of the character's career, thus allowing more potent "leveled" spells a greater effect due to their limited resources. This is espically ture with the cleric who can also wade into combat with weapon+armor and conserve his daily spells for a more emergency situations (I'd like it if the cleric had a non-spell focused healing like Healing Word, but that's me). Compre this to say, 3E where a Wizard NEVER reached his spellcasting limit at the end of an adventuring day after about 6th or 7th level. WIth the huge amount of spells they had access to, the fact that they were a daily resource really wasn't a facotor in controlling their balance.

Though I will admit that non-cantrip spells need some sort of "Miss" factor to at least give a player some sembalance of satisfaction when his only daily spell is resisted or misses with the attack. That was an element of 4E that I really enjoyed, knowing that even if my turn amounted to failure, there was still a small silver lining.

As for spell selection, I'm actually fine with them gaining access to a plethora of spells becuase even if  they have a HUGE pile of spells known the spell-per-day still maintain that balance. This was a problem with 3E due to the large number of spells a full-spellcaster could prepare/cast in a day plus spells being all sorts of broken and "Instant-Win" buttons, but I don't feel spells in 5E are of the same caliber (thankfully).
How can the majority believe they have too few spells slots?  That's ridiculous.

Let's not forget wizards have cantrips too.

Power creep evidence.   
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They need more spell slots at lower [Wizard] levels and fewer spell slots at higher [Wizard] levels (more heavily concentrated at the upper [spell levels]).

This idea that high level wizards should have ten times as many spell slots as low level wizards needs to go.

It makes low level wizards a bore, high level wizards a pain. ...

True.

I would like to see the redundant spells combined into single spells as well. Additionally I would like to see the current spell schools set aside spell types:

Alter spells --- temporarily increase or decrease attribute ratings of things and beings

Attack spells --- use raw arcane energy to damage opponets

Conjure spells --- produce objects, materials or elemental substances

Defend spells --- using barriers or auras protect against damage either arcane or mundane

Healing spells ---  Repairs damage, decay, disease, and poison done to living beings or objects

Harm spells --- Causes damage, decay, disease, and poison done to living beings or objects

Illusion spells --- Produces illusory images of varying realism and complexity

Influence/Charm spells --- Controls the thoughts and emotions of others

Movement spells --- Affects all types of motion including flight, levitation and telekinesis

Divination/Reveal spells --- Enhances awareness including scrying and divination

Conceal spells --- Hides objects from detection, scrying, and divination.

Summoning spells ---  Transports creatures from other planes of existence

Banishment spells --- Send creatures back to their plane of origin

Transformation spells ---  Turns one thing into another.

Warding spells --- Reduces the effects or provides immunity to diseases, poison, the environment, mind-control, etc.  Also as keeps specific creatures out of an area

Hex/Curse spells --- Increases the damage done by specific effects.

Enchantment spells --- Create  permanent enchantments.

 
They need more spell slots at lower [Wizard] levels and fewer spell slots at higher [Wizard] levels (more heavily concentrated at the upper [spell levels]).

This idea that high level wizards should have ten times as many spell slots as low level wizards needs to go.

It makes low level wizards a bore, high level wizards a pain. ...

True.

My original thought was to do just this. Let me fiddle with the numbers a bit and re-post the progression keeping to a max X spell slots total.

General question to the forum: What is the correct absolute maximum number of spells castable per day, not counting cantrips, for each type of caster (25/50/75/100%)? This would hopefully be translatable into other casting styles, but for now, I figure we can stick with the current vancian model.

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They need more spell slots. I feel like I have little real choice as a spell caster. I'm a cantrip-bot with a few daily tricks. Meanwhile, we've got martial classes who are outclassing me with their at-wills (which should and will be fixed to some extent).

It needs to be more like pre-4e philosophy on spells. Flexibility is part of what a wizard does. I'm not saying we need as many spell slots as 3e (or the even more liberal AD&D alottments). I'm just saying that the packet isn't sufficient. A 20th level wizard has to have at least 2 spell slots in each of his high level spells, and probably 4 in his first couple slots, with 3s in the middle. Even then, it would only be the extra access to cantrips and rituals that might be sufficient in making me not feel weak.

I like the quasi-vancian style where you can choose which prepared spells to cast, rather than where each prepared spell is a slot (Ie, the way the playtest cleric has been since the first packet). But I think the current packet's "floating choice" prepared spells is too complicated and messy. Too many decisions I don't want people to have to make. "Hmm...should I prepare several high level spells, since I can only cast one per day and I better make sure I have the right one when it comes up, or should I prepare a bunch of low level spells because I'm more likely to get use out of them, or..."

I'm not speaking from a perspective of someone who only plays casters. I run the gamut. I think the rogue and fighter are excellent in this packet (although I think they need fixed in a couple of ways).

I also don't like the 5MWD, and as a DM I make sure it's not always an option. Heck, as a player (even a caster!) I politely petition DMs to give us more encounters during a day. Perhaps that has some bearing on different opinions? It certainly seems that the number of encounters you are looking at between long rests might affect your views on the matter.

General question to the forum: What is the correct absolute maximum number of spells castable per day, not counting cantrips, for each type of caster (25/50/75/100%)? This would hopefully be translatable into other casting styles, but for now, I figure we can stick with the current vancian model.


It isnt really possible to see what is balanced until the Playtest math stabilizes. When the Playtest comes out with the distinction between Basic and Standard, and if Basic seems to work well and be received well by the community, then Basic will likely give us a solid sense of what the math looks like.

Until then, we can only guess how many spells seem appropriate.


With regard to main encounters that require more than atwills, Im leaning toward being able to cast the highest spell level upto three times in one encounter. And thats pretty much it. With flexibility, cast one highest spell and several lower spells.

Partial refreshes per 1-hour rest, are vital. Refreshes during the day mean smaller amounts of spell slots or spell points are necessary.

I realize this is mostly just guessing, but I figure it's worth promoting the idea of using different spell progressions based on how much a "pure caster" a given class is. The exact numbers will need to been playtested a ton and in many different types of adventures to get a good feel on if they are "balanced".

Round 2:
25% caster





































































































































































































LevelSpells per Day
1st2nd3rd4th5th
1st1
2nd1
3rd2
4th21
5th21
6th22
7th221
8th221
9th122
10th221
11th221
12th122
13th221
14th221
15th122
16th122
17th122
18th122
19th122
20th122


50% caster





























































































































































































































LevelSpells per Day
1st2nd3rd4th5th6th
1st1
2nd2
3rd3
4th31
5th32
6th33
7th331
8th332
9th333
10th3331
11th2332
12th1333
13th3331
14th2332
15th1333
16th3331
17th3331
18th3331
19th3331
20th3331
Max Slots:  10


75% caster





























































































































































































































































































Level Spells per Day
1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
1st*1
2nd*2
3rd*21
4th*22
5th*321
6th*322
7th*3321
8th*3322
9th*33321
10th*33322
11th*333321
12th*333321
13th*1333311
14th*1333311
15th*3333111
16th*3333111
17th*23331111
18th*23331111
19th*23331111
20th*23331111
Max Slots:  15


100% caster





























































































































































































































































































Level Spells per Day
1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
1st*2
2nd*4
3rd*42
4th*44
5th*442
6th*444
7th*4442
8th*4444
9th*44442
10th*44444
11th*344441
12th*344441
13th*2444411
14th*2444411
15th*14444111
16th*14444111
17th*44441111
18th*44441111
19th*44441111
20th*44441111
Max Slots:  20


I also agree that partial refreshes are a great idea. I liked the concept in 4e for using "milestones" (although it should really be "plot objectives" or similar, IMO), but instead of getting action points per milestone, each character would get a minor refresh.

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First let me say that arcane casters should have a completely differenet mechanic than divine casters.

Looking at a vancian arcane caster:

Cantrips should be overwhelmingly for roleplaying purposes and have no real affect on the game. Cantrips should be simple things such as:

Clean the mud off your boots
Mend a torn cloak
Sew a button back on a tunic
Change the colour of the theif's clothing from black to red as they look for traps. Tongue Out

Any cantrip that does damage should only be enough to kill a handful of house flies or a common mouse.

If there are to be rituals, due to the lengthly amount of time that they take to cast they should be unlimited in number and all spells should be able to be cast as rituals. NOTE this does not mean that all spells will be used as a  ritual as ritual casting is subjective to time restraints, location, situation and circumstance.

I view the "slots" as the amount of raw arcane energy that an arcane caster can shape  and control at any given time. This amount increases with experience. I would have 2 + casting attribute bonus every odd level. The "gish" classes would receive the same amount but at every fourth level. Additionally the martial gish should have more HP than a roguish gish who in turn would have more HP than a pure caster would.
I highly value atwill spells. They are character defining, and establish the bedrock of thematic flavor. I need cantrips to be highly effective, especially at high levels.
I view the "slots" as the amount of raw arcane energy that an arcane caster can shape  and control at any given time. This amount increases with experience.


This widely perceived feel for how magic works - “raw energy” that the Wizard can control atwill - works much better as a spell point system.

The vancian slot system is dissonant with this popular understanding.
I highly value at-will spells. They are character defining, and establish the bedrock of thematic flavor. I need cantrips to be highly effective, especially at high levels.

That really depends on how much magic is a part of a concept. Minor casters (what I labeled as "25%") such as 1e-3e paladins and rangers don't need at wills, because their primary identity is not from their magic. Magic is more of an accent in that case. Same even for the 50% classes. I might be persuaded that 50% might get at-wills later on in the progression, but not initially. For the 75-100% casters, they should get some at-wills, since magic is the major identity of the class, and would have a healthy magic reserve, just like the martial classes never losing the ability to swing their weapon (until they fall unconscious).

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I view the "slots" as the amount of raw arcane energy that an arcane caster can shape  and control at any given time. This amount increases with experience.


This widely perceived feel for how magic works - “raw energy” that the Wizard can control atwill - works much better as a spell point system.

The vancian slot system is dissonant with this popular understanding.




No. There is a difference between "control at any given time" and "control at will." You have to ask what the rules and contraints are that allow you to control something at a given time as opposed to the free for all that at will implies. 

Consider it like this: a vancian slot based caster is taking the time to practice and learn to paint a portrait, the at will caster is simply rolling paint on a wall.

I view the "slots" as the amount of raw arcane energy that an arcane caster can shape  and control at any given time. This amount increases with experience.


This widely perceived feel for how magic works - “raw energy” that the Wizard can control atwill - works much better as a spell point system.

The vancian slot system is dissonant with this popular understanding.




No. There is a difference between "control at any given time" and "control at will." You have to ask what the rules and contraints are that allow you to control something at a given time as opposed to the free for all that at will implies. 

Consider it like this: a vancian slot based caster is taking the time to practice and learn to paint a portrait, the at will caster is simply rolling paint on a wall.


Heh, the vancian daily caster can only paint the portrait when waking up in the morning. Then the vancian caster cant do anything for the rest of the day until going to sleep again.

The spontaneous refreshing caster can work on the portrait all day long, whenever it makes sense to work on the portrait.



The vancian spell slot caster can only paint with a certain amount of orange paint. And when running out can no longer work on the portrait.

The spontaneous spell point caster can, when running out of orange paint, easily mix red and yellow paint to make more and can continue to work on the work of art.



... while the vancian caster is picking the nose waiting until sleeping and morning.
In my opinion neither the cleric nor the wizard have enough spell slots. They both need more and the Arcanist and Lightbringer needs more slots  than the other archtypes since their weapon profs are less.
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It's hard to say whether the number of spell slots is sufficient right now because we don't know what changes are going to be made in the next packet to spells, martial character damage, etc. The number of spells per day is probably pretty close to adequate, though this is conditioned upon out-of-the-book ritual casting being given back to ALL wizards, not just those of one tradition.

In the case of the cleric, I don't like how the vast majority of their spells are going to go toward healing, as in the past. I'd like for them to have an alternative healing mechanic so that they can spend their daily spells on fun things.
if the wizard in 2nd edition the progression in slots at 20 was

5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 so they are lowing some spell slots and keeping the highest level the same. its not terrible and is something i can live with
if the wizard in 2nd edition the progression in slots at 20 was

5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 so they are lowing some spell slots and keeping the highest level the same. its not terrible and is something i can live with



Since all those 5s are dead wood that will virtually never be used seriously. The design is annoying, requiring gratuitous complexity, bookkeeping, and distraction for little or no benefit.

Note, 5e spells no longer autoscale like those of previous editions. The quadratic Wizard is dead. If a player wants their Fireball to increase damage dice, the player must expend a higher spell level slot. As such, lower level spells become irrelevant. Tracking them is useless. A complex system designed to preserve them is unhelpful.  

If they drastically increase the number of spells either a cleric or a wizard receives, say to the sorts of numbers justmike posted above me, I walk away from this edition and all of my hopes for it; at least, unless some sort of contextual change also keeps balance in tact despite that increase in spells. 

those numbers are from the 2nd editon players guide. now the time it took to memorize them at 20th level was hours and also there was no at will cast whatever is in your spell book either so i think they are fine if they use that model
if the wizard in 2nd edition the progression in slots at 20 was

5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 so they are lowing some spell slots and keeping the highest level the same. its not terrible and is something i can live with



Since all those 5s are dead wood that will virtually never be used seriously. The design is annoying, requiring gratuitous complexity, bookkeeping, and distraction for little or no benefit.

Note, 5e spells no longer autoscale like those of previous editions. The quadratic Wizard is dead. If a player wants their Fireball to increase damage dice, the player must expend a higher spell level slot. As such, lower level spells become irrelevant. Tracking them is useless. A complex system designed to preserve them is unhelpful.  



if properly played a wizard would use alot of lower level spells in high end dungeons you are just showing your lack of imagination and roleplaying skills if you cant and spam some high level stuff
if the wizard in 2nd edition the progression in slots at 20 was

5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 so they are lowing some spell slots and keeping the highest level the same. its not terrible and is something i can live with



Since all those 5s are dead wood that will virtually never be used seriously. The design is annoying, requiring gratuitous complexity, bookkeeping, and distraction for little or no benefit.

Note, 5e spells no longer autoscale like those of previous editions. The quadratic Wizard is dead. If a player wants their Fireball to increase damage dice, the player must expend a higher spell level slot. As such, lower level spells become irrelevant. Tracking them is useless. A complex system designed to preserve them is unhelpful.  



Since low level spells no longer autoscale. The number of lower level slots that are useful is about zero.


The Wizard spell slot table should probably look something like this regardless of Wizard level:

4


These four spell slots will be of the appropriate spell level for the Wizard level. Using the slot for lower level spells simply activates the “Special” stat that describes how the spell functions when using a higher level spell slot.
so at 20th level you want 4 spell slots for 9th level spells basically doubling the max level spells and people complain of power gaming and how unbalanced wizards are
so at 20th level you want 4 spell slots for 9th level spells basically doubling the max level spells and people complain of power gaming and how unbalanced wizards are



Well, yes, exactly that.

Therefore calibrate the gaming math of spells.



But also note, even when using a Level 1 spell in a slot at Level 20, the Level 1 spell will have a Special that will function more powerfully at higher levels.
ok ill memorize 4 wishes or meteor storms and youll spend a week rewriting your whole campaign