Ultimate Plan

36 posts / 0 new
Last post
193543479 wrote:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Ultimate Plan: 6 colorless, 3 blue (9 CMC)

Scry X, where X is the number of cards in your library. (To scry X, look at the top X cards of your library, then put any number of them on the bottom of your library and the rest on top in any order.)

You may skip your next turn, if you do Ultimate Plan costs 2 colorless and 1 blue less. You may do this up to 3 times.

At the beginning of each upkeep after casting Ultimate Plan, if the last upkeep was not your own, take an extra turn after this one. This effect only triggers during your upkeep. If Ultimate Plan did not resolve this effect does not trigger. This effect does not trigger if you did not choose to skip 2 turns or more while casting Ultimate Plan

Sorcery

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



That last clause is...um...confusing. Or at least confusingly worded.

I'll try and template it better and see if that helps...

Ultimate Plan
Sorcery
Scry X, where X is the number of cards in your library. (To scry X, look at the top X cards of your library, then put any number of them on the bottom of your library and the rest on top in any order.)

You may skip up to your next 3 turns. If you do, Ultimate Plan costs less for each turn you skip.

If you skipped 2 or 3 turns, then at the beginning of each of your upkeeps, if the last upkeep was not your own, take an extra turn after this one.

It's still...convoluted, though...

Also, skipping 3 turns to get extra turns FOR THE REST OF THE GAME? Way too OP.
It's not so much that the wording is unclear.  It's the very nature of the ability that's confusing.  The scry ability and the extra turns don't really belong on the same card, for one.  Cards tend to focus on just one thing.  And the fact that you can only really arrive at the final effect (skip a number of turns, then take extra turns) through going back and re-reading the card a few times.  If you were to strip away a few of the effects... (Sidetrack: I'm against the Scry effect entirely, because it will take a lot of time to complete even though there's very little payoff after you go ten cards deep or so, and it's just overkill that makes the game less interesting.  Players like to complain about randomness, but it's an important aspect to the game.)

Right, so strip away some of the less "core" parts of the card, in my opinion, and you get a more streamlined card.

Ultimate Plan
Sorcery
Look at your library, and put the cards back in any order.
Skip your next three turns.
At the beginning of each of your upkeeps for the rest of the game, if the last turn was not yours, take an extra turn after this one.


Aaaand now I can clearly see that this thing is insane.  The fact that it can cost zero and lets you set up all your draws makes it an auto-include in any combo deck, regardless of skipping turns.  And even if you get rid of the library-rearranging, I don't like that you can play it in a non-Blue deck.  Free cards are dangerous, and breaking the color pie is probably the least of your worries.

Another sidetrack: I think that just being able to figure out what a card does isn't the best test for clarity-of-wording.  If you've got a really well-worded card, you can give it to a player, have them read it once at normal speed, take the card away, and that player will be able to describe what the card does in plain English without referencing the card again.

I do like the two-turns-for-one effect though.  Focus on that and make it fairly costed, and I think you've got a winner.  I like how you avoided the Lighthouse Chronologist effect, where it just gets insanely good in multiplayer games.  I'm not sure if it's officially-supported wording, but I'd love to see a card that just said "If you would take a turn, take two turns instead'.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
This would clog up gameplay something fierce. Assuming only half your deck remains, thats still something like 30 cards to rearrange. Will in need the counter in two turns or three? Chould I put two of my combo pieces on top because they might have a counter spell? Etc... Also, honestly beyond maybe the top 10 cards, you honestly can't determine whether you'll need something or not. Setting your entire deck just takes too long.
This would clog up gameplay something fierce. Assuming only half your deck remains, thats still something like 30 cards to rearrange. Will in need the counter in two turns or three? Chould I put two of my combo pieces on top because they might have a counter spell? Etc... Also, honestly beyond maybe the top 10 cards, you honestly can't determine whether you'll need something or not. Setting your entire deck just takes too long.

I disagree honestly, for one you just removed half the card, secondly 3 turns is quite a lot. Especially if you were to cast this early on, by the time you get your first land out someone could easily be playing a pretty hefty creature, if not have killed you by then.

If you are running this card then you would be used to the rearranging, honestly you would probably have a, as the name says, ultimate plan.


Edit: Meant to send the first part to the other guy



Ok, I misinterpreted the part where you could skip just two turns to make it cost instead of zero.  Which is probably a better option.  But I just wanted to illustrate how you could focus on what the card's most straightforward usage would be instead of overloading the player with extra options.  Player believe they will enjoy having more options, but simplicity keeps the game functioning smoothly.  Unnecessary options (like the ability to arrange the order of cards that you probably won't get to see for another fifteen turns) slow down the game and make it less engaging and less fun.  Giving the player the ability to customize the costs and pick and choose which effects they want seems like it makes the card better, but it just makes the card harder to balance properly, harder to play optimally, and more time-consuming to process mentally.

In short, the card needs to be more elegant.  Find the single coolest part of the card, and then remove things that aren't necessary to make it cool. 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
It's not just Fallingman. This card is confusing as hell and is way too convoluted. It's also probably way overpowered, but I can't really tell for sure because it's too convoluted.

Oh, and it bombs the flavor-to-rules-gibberish ratio test (that I just decided was a thing). It's trying to evoke something, but it ends up being so fiddly and unelegant that the flavor doesn't come through. It's just rules rules rules rules bla bla bla.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
I would prefer you changed the card so it was less bad.

If you didn't want people to critique your card, why did you post it? Were you expecting everyone to fall all over themselves getting in line to tell you how great you are? Sheesh.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
This is not straightforward man. Its a neat concept, which needs some polishing. But anything that lets you set your entire deck, has an alternative cost which is based on you skipping turns but then later getting extra turns, and all that is just convoluted. We aren't picking on you, its just observations. Honest.
That is basically the dumbest, least productive, least self aware response you could have made. Congratulations.


EDIT: Actually, I am picking on him. We have one Kevin. We don't need two.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
I would prefer you changed the card so it was less bad.

If you didn't want people to critique your card, why did you post it? Were you expecting everyone to fall all over themselves getting in line to tell you how great you are? Sheesh.

Where did I say I don't want critique? I said I disagree with your critique.



If you only accept critiques that you agree with, that's essentially saying "I don't want critique".

But let's not discuss who's violating whose sense of etiquette.  The message is this:  If someone says that they dislike something about the thing you've created, you generally can't argue them into liking it.  You'd have as much luck trying to convince them that a game they don't like is actually really fun, or a joke they didn't laugh at is actually really funny.  You don't have to change the card, but if it bothers you that people dislike something then the proper response is to adjust the thing that they dislike, not just try to change their mind through argument.  If it doesn't bother you that people dislike something about the card, then just ignore it.  (Note: I count context and presentation as valid forms of adjustment.  Some cards do require flavor elements, set design elements or other things not contained in the post to be fully appreciated.)

Also I feel I should repeat that the problem isn't that the card is incomprehensible.  If you read the card carefully and examine all the elements, you can deduce what it does clearly enough.  The problem is that it doesn't present things in a logical elegant order, uses unusual rules phrasing that people aren't used to, and contains lots of small distractions that aren't essential to what the card wants to do.  I don't think anyone's saying they literally can't understand it, just that it's not designed in an easy-to-understand way.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
The only time this would be played would be win skipping turns wouldn't matter. Either because you have stasis, or protection, or card draw for your combo. Oh look my library is set up, whee there's my instant win. Also storm. Mayne even dredge.
You never play it for 9, you would always always always play it for no more than 3 mana. Skipping two turn to rearrange your library and get free turns for the rest of the game is stupid. And seeing as you refuse to listen to anyone, expect less and less people to respond to any cards you design in the future.
Falling, your first statement is completely wrong. If that was the true then that would mean I don't agree with any critique. If someone says they can't understand it, yet most the people I've shown it to can understand it fine, then I have to disagree with it being hard to understand. It's a very straightforward card.


Yet most of the people who have seen it here think it's convoluted and hard to understand. I hope you didn't post it here looking to get the same response from all of us that you got from your friends. Posting here should be open to second (and third, etc.) opinions. Everyone's different; some people may be able to grasp it quickly while others may not. Rather than focusing on "most of the people [you've] shown it to", a more productive approach is to focus on most of the people who've seen it, whether in real life or on here. Because based on the responses here, it's just not a clearly worded card.

Can I understand the card? Yes. But if I have to read a card 4 times before I can understand it, it's not clear.

All cards I make have artists credited in the appropriate places. Artist names in "quotes" are DeviantArt usernames unless otherwise mentioned.

"I play a Grave Betrayal. I get all your dead things now, mwahahahaha!"
"Okay. I play a Phage the Untouchable. Piss me off and I will sac it."
"... ... ... so guys, remind me again how to sac my own enchantments?"

Holy mother of everything unholy. "Stack your deck" does not cost 0 mana. No, I don't want to hear about how you skip your next turns. Your opponent won't get any either.

Ultimate Plan, Island, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough for 0, crack LED in response, dredge four gravetrolls, Dread Return your opponent into submission.
Ultimate Plan, Sanity Grinding, reveal 50 blue mana symbols.
Ultimate Plan, Ad Nauseam, do the math.
Ultimate Plan, Treasure Hunt, Conflagrate, twenty them
Ultimate Plan, Gitaxian Probe, counter with Spellshift, flip into Primal Surge, Craterhoof their ass

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

The first four are 2-card combos, the last one can substitute it with any free instant or sorcery, like gut shot or whatever, so it's like 2.5 at best.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Holy mother of everything unholy. "Stack your deck" does not cost 0 mana. No, I don't want to hear about how you skip your next turns. Your opponent won't get any either.

Ultimate Plan, Island, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough for 0, crack LED in response, dredge four gravetrolls, Dread Return your opponent into submission.
Ultimate Plan, Sanity Grinding, reveal 50 blue mana symbols.
Ultimate Plan, Ad Nauseam, do the math.
Ultimate Plan, Treasure Hunt, Conflagrate, twenty them
Ultimate Plan, Gitaxian Probe, counter with Spellshift, flip into Primal Surge, Craterhoof their ass

I have to say, you have some amazing luck at getting perfect hands every game!



I have to say you know nothing about combo.



Feb 10, 2013 -- 1:56PM, Frogmander wrote:



Feb 10, 2013 -- 1:53PM, Mown wrote:

Holy mother of everything unholy. "Stack your deck" does not cost 0 mana. No, I don't want to hear about how you skip your next turns. Your opponent won't get any either.

Ultimate Plan, Island, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough for 0, crack LED in response, dredge four gravetrolls, Dread Return your opponent into submission.
Ultimate Plan, Sanity Grinding, reveal 50 blue mana symbols.
Ultimate Plan, Ad Nauseam, do the math.
Ultimate Plan, Treasure Hunt, Conflagrate, twenty them
Ultimate Plan, Gitaxian Probe, counter with Spellshift, flip into Primal Surge, Craterhoof their ass




I have to say, you have some amazing luck at getting perfect hands every game!






I have to say you know nothing about combo.


I have to say you are quite unimaginative if you had to use my sentence structure to make a comeback.



It wasn't a comeback, just a fact.

Falling, your first statement is completely wrong. If that was the true then that would mean I don't agree with any critique. If someone says they can't understand it, yet most the people I've shown it to can understand it fine, then I have to disagree with it being hard to understand. It's a very straightforward card.

....

I am more then fine with critique, however taking any and all suggestions and applying them without question is a terrible practice.



I'm saying that you need to give equal weight to the critiques you disagree with compared to the ones you agree with.  You've had several people here complain that the card is too complicated, but you give more weight to the people who you've shown it to who think it's good the way it is.

I'm not asking you to just take anyone's suggestion without thinking.  But the only two logical responses to someone disliking the card are to change the card or its presentation in order to make that person happier, or to acknowledge that that person has reasons for disliking it and choose to keep it the same regardless of those reasons.  Dismissing another person's opinion in a way that implies they don't have reasons for that opinion gets you nowhere, and just leads to conflict.

You don't need to cater to other people's desires, but you should try to understand their opinions.  If you want to change those opinions, you need to give them new reasons to have a new opinion, not just argue the opinion down.  If someone dislikes your card for a stupid reason, then ignore it.  But if someone likes your card for a stupid reason, ignore that too.  It's the reason that matters.

(Also, no offense, but the people on this forum will gladly tell you things about your card that your friends wouldn't.  Sorry if that bugs you) 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Alright, I'll accept that.  I realize on re-reading that you're not just leaning on the "I showed it to my friends and they didn't say anything bad" argument.  However, you're still dismissing people's opinions as "wrong" because you can't understand the reasons behind what they say.  You hear someone complain that the card is confusing, and your immediate reaction is that it's impossible to be confusing because it's using clear sentence structure and Magic language.  Argument: dismissed.  Without ever digging into the reasons.

I think you're missing the difference between presenting a clear, easy-to-understand card, and simply presenting a confusing hard-to-understand card in the clearest possible way.  The wording is reasonably polished, and follows Magic terminology as well as could be expected for something that's never been done before.  But if you look at many old Magic cards in their new Oracle forms, the wording is just as polished and just as official and functional, but they're still ugly and confusing because the actual function behind the wording was always confusing in the first place.

Your card is not confusing because of any technical error.  The actual function of the card is inherently confusing because it has too many intersecting elements.  The sequence of events, the "plot" of the card from beginning to end, is not elegantly designed.  You did a good job translating that plot into proper Magic grammar, but it didn't fix the underlying issue.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Disregarding everything that is wrong with this card in terms of balance and play, do you really not see how convoluted the wording is?

I'm going to attempt to translate it into something most people would be able to make sense of...

Ultimate Plan
Sorcery
Each turn you skip while casting this spell reduces its cost by .
Scry X, where X is the number of cards in your library.
If you skipped two or more turns to cast Ultimate Plan, for the rest of the game, at the beginning of your upkeep, if the last turn wasn't yours, take an extra turn after this one.

Clauses... Clauses everywhere...
Disregarding everything that is wrong with this card in terms of balance and play, do you really not see how convoluted the wording is?

I'm going to attempt to translate it into something most people would be able to make sense of...

Ultimate Plan
Sorcery
Each turn you skip while casting this spell reduces its cost by .
Scry X, where X is the number of cards in your library.
If you skipped two or more turns to cast Ultimate Plan, for the rest of the game, at the beginning of your upkeep, if the last turn wasn't yours, take an extra turn after this one.

Clauses... Clauses everywhere...

I'd like to point out no where on that card does it say you CAN skip turns while casting it. Simply that if you did it costs less. Once again a loop hole that an opponent may attempt to exploit.

Also, there is a specific reason I said "If the last upkeep was not your own". Paradox haze. 


The wording is taken from convoke.
And really, with a card that's already this broken, you don't need to add a clause for one obscure card. It's like making a card that says it can only be countered by Mana Tithe or giving Progenitus "Protection from everything but Bone Splinters"

I just reviewed this entire thread. You have not accepted a single comment about this card as true, acceptable, or reasonable. Some of the people who have commented on this card have designed thousands of cards. They have made mistakes, created convoluted cards, etc. They have all been willing adapt to commentary. Have you thought that maybe you understand your card, because in your mind you know what it does. My first point was that it would take time to arrange 30 plus cards based on a constantly changing game meta. You may have a master plan, but your opponent could just as easily have a solution, which you also have to plan for. There are just too many options in this one card. Also, completely ignoring the scry, I would be pretty willing to skip my first couple of turns just to have double turns forever. In multiplayer, that effect gets pretty crazy. Also, your extra turn effect should probably make an emblem, otherwise there are memory issues.

Everyone here wants help you improve your cards.
Gah this thread. It's no wonder less and less people go on ymtc.
this place moves more than the rest of the forum sometimes
 
"some stones should be left unturned" ~Urlock
It's not just paradox haze. Anything that might give someone an additional upkeep, have them take another upkeep step etc. It's to avoid exploiting. You guys are wanting the card to be over simplified, which as I said, causes problems. I pointed out the problems that would be happening with the re-text.


And what else does that? Nothing. Only Paradox Haze. Preventing abuse with ONE card is not worth the even further convolution of the text. And, as others have stated, that isn't what this would be abused with.
You gave the example of multiple Krark's Thumb confusing people.  That isn't an issue of oversimplification. It's an issue of a corner case scenario that most people with knowledge of replacement effects understand. Do you think Karn should have text that specifically tells you what happens if you restart the game after a wish has resolved and brought a card from outside the game into the game?
99% of the time it isn't going to matter and will be functionally identical without being as ridiculously convoluted... But it still is insanely broken.


Ultimate Plan
Sorcery
Each turn you skip while casting this spell reduces its cost by .
Scry X, where X is the number of cards in your library.
If you skipped two or more turns to cast Ultimate Plan, for the rest of the game, at the beginning of your upkeep, if the last turn wasn't yours, take an extra turn after this one.


I just reviewed this entire thread. You have not accepted a single comment about this card as true, acceptable, or reasonable. Some of the people who have commented on this card have designed thousands of cards. They have made mistakes, created convoluted cards, etc. They have all been willing adapt to commentary. Have you thought that maybe you understand your card, because in your mind you know what it does. My first point was that it would take time to arrange 30 plus cards based on a constantly changing game meta. You may have a master plan, but your opponent could just as easily have a solution, which you also have to plan for. There are just too many options in this one card. Also, completely ignoring the scry, I would be pretty willing to skip my first couple of turns just to have double turns forever. In multiplayer, that effect gets pretty crazy. Also, your extra turn effect should probably make an emblem, otherwise there are memory issues.

Everyone here wants help you improve your cards.

I haven't accepted a single idea because none have been good ideas. I don't care if they have designed every card in MTG, that doesn't automatically make their idea good, same with good intentions.


Ok. How about we simplify this.

What makes you think that this is a good card/design/idea?
Why should we accept it as good on any of those levels?
 The underlying issue is not something that can be fixed then. You are saying how it functions is confusing. To fix that you would have to change how it functions, which would mean it would be a different card, which would be entirely besides the point.



I disagree.  Ideas don't just spring into existence fully formed, sometimes they take some refinement in order to reach their full potential.  Throwing away an idea just because it wasn't perfect right away is a bad way to create, and so is clinging tightly to an unrefined idea for fear of losing its specialness.  Why does it matter if it's "the same card"?  I find the concept baffling.  Ideas are fluid.

Really though, it's nobody else's place to decide if you want to fix it, keep it or scrap it.  I think it's an idea worth exploring further, and I think it CAN be fixed.
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Flexibility and having lots of choices only appear to be good things from a player's point of view.  A good game restricts choices so that the player only needs to pay attention to the choices that offer the most interaction.  An FPS game with fourty different weapons might look appealing, but in an actual game having five or six different weapons with straightforward roles will play much better.  It will be faster paced, more intuitive, easier to balance, easier to metagame, be much more accessible, and probably more fun in the end.

The elegance of the card matters much more than the extra bells and whistles.  A card that does seven different things isn't more fun than a card that only does one thing. 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
You know, I haven't seen GM Champion OR BankaiMastery around here in a while... Maybe this guy really IS Kevin. He certainly seems to have the same exact attitude about the fundamental blessed sancticty of his own designs.
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.
You guys are too kind.

Seriously man, bad card is bad, you've been given lots of reasons why:

1) It's fiddly and time consuming, spending time doing things that won't become relevant
2) It's trying to do too many things at once
3) The wording is incorrect
4) It's busted

So hooray, it's a flatline. No life here. Don't feel bad, happens to us all, better luck next time, etc etc. It's time to suck it up and move on.

And everyone should listen to Fallingman more. Seriously, the guy has more patience than I think is healthy. I just kind of want him to lose it one day, just so I know he's human.
I don't suspect this be Kevin - not enough mammary glands, riggity right? Honest to the goodness, Kevinsworth is usually more creative than this - as much as he be a right straight ass sometime.
You guys are too kind.

Seriously man, bad card is bad, you've been given lots of reasons why:

1) It's fiddly and time consuming, spending time doing things that won't become relevant
2) It's trying to do too many things at once
3) The wording is incorrect
4) It's busted

So hooray, it's a flatline. No life here. Don't feel bad, happens to us all, better luck next time, etc etc. It's time to suck it up and move on.

And everyone should listen to Fallingman more. Seriously, the guy has more patience than I think is healthy. I just kind of want him to lose it one day, just so I know he's human.

You just don't get it, right?

"The body is but a vessel for the soul, a puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny. And lo, the body is not eternal, for it must feed on the flesh of others, lest it return to the dust from whence it came. Therefore must the soul deceive, despise and murder men."The Durai Papers

So hooray, it's a flatline. No life here. Don't feel bad, happens to us all, better luck next time, etc etc. It's time to suck it up and move on.



If you're a doctor in real life, I really hope that you use this line on occasion.
So hooray, it's a flatline. No life here. Don't feel bad, happens to us all, better luck next time, etc etc. It's time to suck it up and move on.



If you're a doctor in real life, I really hope that you use this line on occasion.

Verbatim.

Yes, this is most likely an mup of a troll. If its not, you should realize that even though this is for fun, we take ymtc very seriously. Its equivalent to any other form of art.
So hooray, it's a flatline. No life here. Don't feel bad, happens to us all, better luck next time, etc etc. It's time to suck it up and move on.



If you're a doctor in real life, I really hope that you use this line on occasion.


If you aren't a doctor, consider doctor sitcom writer, because apparently sitcom writer is an entry level job to MTG designer.
"I think me going Bang bang bang I win is pretty intuitive" Mafia Record: Wouldn't you like to know? 2011 Mafia Awards - Mastermind of the Year
mymoment
\
57817638 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
88318561 wrote:
58060728 wrote:
Moriok Rigger does absolutely nothing to boost other riggers. You are incorrect.
Moriok Rigger is not a Rigger in print. Only in Errata WHAT NOW! (yes, I did put that phrase in for that exact reason)
Congratulations, they have activated your trap card!
You guys need to quote more.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)