Duel Implement Spellcaster question.

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I have my Tome Caddy running loose helping my summoned creature and I'm wielding my Quarterstaff two-handed for the Hafted Defense Feat. If I use Duel Implement Spellcaster and my Familiar's Book Bearer Benefit which implement is considered as off hanedd? I believe it's my staff. Thank you kindly.
Neither, unless you take Staff Fighting.
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Are you sure as the staff is wielded in both my main and off hand while Book Bearer allows me to wield a tome handless?
Are you sure as the staff is wielded in both my main and off hand while Book Bearer allows me to wield a tome handless?



The staff is not a second implement in your off hand.  The tome is not a second implement in your off hand.  Since neither is a second implement in your off hand, neither counts for DIS.
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Are you sure as the staff is wielded in both my main and off hand while Book Bearer allows me to wield a tome handless?



The staff is not a second implement in your off hand.  The tome is not a second implement in your off hand.  Since neither is a second implement in your off hand, neither counts for DIS.



I'm attacking with the tome, so why wouldn't the staff be the second implement? Additionally, how is the staff not in my off hand as I'm holding it with both hands?

The staff is not a SECOND implement.  It is the same implement.
No the staff is another implement as I'm attacking with the tome granted by my familiar.
Right but you aren't holding the tome.  So you only have 1 implement in your hands.  So no DiS.
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Exactly, I have an arcane implement in both hands, sure it's the same one, but it's in both hands. Nowhere does it state two individual implements, just that both hands are occupied.
The feat specifies 'both implements', which means you need one implement in one hand, and a different implement in the other hand.
Dual and both means 2 implements.

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Exactly, I have an arcane implement in both hands, sure it's the same one, but it's in both hands. Nowhere does it state two individual implements, just that both hands are occupied.



From the power:

When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.

2 things.  1 in each =/= 1 in both.

Both pretty clearly states that you need 2 in your hands.  To be clear it doesn't say "both hands" it says "both implements".

I know you want the power to work the other way.  And you may be able to convince a DM who doesn't want to argue with you go with how you want it to work.  But the fact remains that it doesn't actually work as you want it to.
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Exactly, I have an arcane implement in both hands, sure it's the same one, but it's in both hands. Nowhere does it state two individual implements, just that both hands are occupied.



From the power:

When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.

2 things.  1 in each =/= 1 in both.

Both pretty clearly states that you need 2 in your hands.  To be clear it doesn't say "both hands" it says "both implements".

I know you want the power to work the other way.  And you may be able toconvince a DM who doesn't want to argue with you go with how you want it to work.  But the fact remains that it doesn't actually work as you want it to.



Implement is singular in the above text you provided which means one. Both implements are useable and wield capable. I know what the Feat's meant to do. This isn't about RAI. It's about whether or not an implement in both hands qualifies as off handed.
Exactly, I have an arcane implement in both hands, sure it's the same one, but it's in both hands. Nowhere does it state two individual implements, just that both hands are occupied.



From the power:

When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.

2 things.  1 in each =/= 1 in both.

Both pretty clearly states that you need 2 in your hands.  To be clear it doesn't say "both hands" it says "both implements".

I know you want the power to work the other way.  And you may be able to weasel and whine your way into letting a DM who doesn't want to argue with you go with how you want it to work.  But the fact remains that it doesn't actually work as you want it to.



Implement is singular in the above text you provided which means one. Both implements are useable and wield capable. I know what the Feat's meant to do. This isn't about RAI. It's about whether or not an implement in both hands qualifies as off handed. Additionally, I'd prefer that you keep any negative assumptions about me to yourself. Thank you kindly.



Um.  Implement is singular?  Lets try that again...

 When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.

If you mean that the first useage of implement is singular, that is because that is how english works as a language.  You don't ever have "a magic implements".  If you would rather it to have said this:

When you use an arcane attack power, and you are weilding magic implements in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus to damage rolls.

Then ok.  But those are functionally identical and ignore the second part.  That still doesn't help you with the distinction of "each" vs "both".
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Um.  Implement is singular?  Lets try that again...

 When you use an arcane attack power and you are wielding a magic implement in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement’s enhancement bonus to damage rolls.
Both of your implements must be usable with this power, and you must be capable of wielding both implements, to gain this benefit.

If you mean that the first useage of implement is singular, that is because that is how english works as a language.  You don't ever have "a magic implements".  If you would rather it to have said this:

When you use an arcane attack power, and you are weilding magic implements in each hand, you can add the off-hand implement's enhancement bonus to damage rolls.

Then ok.  But those are functionally identical and ignore the second part.  That still doesn't help you with the distinction of "each" vs "both".

I disagree with your parsing here. You're treating it like it's one sentence that ties it all together, but it's not. He needs an implement in both hands, but it doesn't say anywhere that each implement needs to be in both hands. "Both" and "each" are in seperate sentences talking about seperate requirements.

If there's any issue here, it's that you don't actually have an off-hand implement, so you can't add any bonus. I don't even think Staff Fighting would work because you only get the off-hand end when using it as a weapon.
for DIS to work you need one implement in each hand, effectively dual wielding implements.  Being able to have a tome cady hold your tome for you and attack via the tome does not mean you're holding the item in your hand.  You MUST hold one implement in each hand.  Having a staff and holding it two handed does not work since you need a different implement in each hand.  Staff fighting also would not work for the reason Scatterbrained stated.

And honestly, arguing with people you ask a question to when they answer your question is just silly.  If you weren't going to listen to the answer to your question, why even bother asking ?
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for DIS to work you need one implement in each hand, effectively dual wielding implements.  Being able to have a tome cady hold your tome for you and attack via the tome does not mean you're holding the item in your hand.  You MUST hold one implement in each hand.  Having a staff and holding it two handed does not work since you need a different implement in each hand.  Staff fighting also would not work for the reason Scatterbrained stated.

And honestly, arguing with people you ask a question to when they answer your question is just silly.  If you weren't going to listen to the answer to your question, why even bother asking ?

Staff Fighting works, you guys need to check the double-weapon rules. Wielding a double-weapon literally says "You have a weapon in each hand."
Staff fighting and DIS work just fine and it doesn't matter if you cast through the tome which i believe was initially stated earlier in the thread. Not sure how/if that is possible but if it is it would still work with SF/DIS.
for DIS to work you need one implement in each hand, effectively dual wielding implements.  Being able to have a tome cady hold your tome for you and attack via the tome does not mean you're holding the item in your hand.  You MUST hold one implement in each hand.  Having a staff and holding it two handed does not work since you need a different implement in each hand.  Staff fighting also would not work for the reason Scatterbrained stated.

And honestly, arguing with people you ask a question to when they answer your question is just silly.  If you weren't going to listen to the answer to your question, why even bother asking ?

Staff Fighting works, you guys need to check the double-weapon rules. Wielding a double-weapon literally says "You have a weapon in each hand."



That's why comment #1, the first response to the OP, is "you need Staff Fighting to make this work, it doesn't work without it" and the OP's response was "no it doesn't!"

OP doesn't have Staff Fighting, and is insisting that his non-double-weapon Staff, wielded in two hands, counts.

It doesn't.

If he takes Staff Fighting, it seems to work.  He's insisting it works without that.

(The comment you're specifically responding to says Staff Fighting won't work, because "a weapon in each hand" is not "an implement in each hand".  I think that's wrong, but it's also not what the other 90% of the thread says.)
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Both comments I was responding to say it won't work, actually. Just because it is stated correctly earlier in the thread that it does work that way doesn't mean it magically shouldn't be corrected. Wrong is wrong. I read the thread, I know what the OP thinks. This isn't even my first response, the other one just got ORCed because I pointed out that people who ask experts questions and then argue with them will be going to a very special place when they pass on.
Both comments I was responding to say it won't work, actually. Just because it is stated correctly earlier in the thread that it does work that way doesn't mean it magically shouldn't be corrected. Wrong is wrong. I read the thread, I know what the OP thinks. This isn't even my first response, the other one just got ORCed because I pointed out that people who ask experts questions and then argue with them will be going to a very special place when they pass on.



No argument about correcting later wrongs, and sorry, I didn't see your earlier response because it's not there now.
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The way I read the feat and the what I believe is the intent of said feat is to make the spell caster very much like a dual wielding warrior.  With a weapon in each hand he/she is trying to inflict maximum damage.

I do not believe that a tome bearer would ever be considered as part of the DIS since the caster is not actually wielding the implement.  Would this idea work with a orb and a tome bearer? No.  The staff is being treated differently since it CAN be wielded in both hands AS A WEAPON not as a implement.

So only one of your hands is wielding an implement, the other is holding part of the staff to make use of it as a weapon, the tome bearer is simply holding an implement you have access to, but not in the DiS sense.

That's how I see it anyway. 
The way I read the feat and the what I believe is the intent of said feat is to make the spell caster very much like a dual wielding warrior.  With a weapon in each hand he/she is trying to inflict maximum damage.



Except that this isn't the way dual wielding works in 4e.  You can hold a [1h] weapon in each hand all you want, and you can attack with either.  But unless you have something that says you attack with both weapons, you don't, and they don't add damage to the other one.

I do not believe that a tome bearer would ever be considered as part of the DIS since the caster is not actually wielding the implement.  Would this idea work with a orb and a tome bearer? No.  The staff is being treated differently since it CAN be wielded in both hands AS A WEAPON not as a implement.



What does that have to do with anything?

So only one of your hands is wielding an implement, the other is holding part of the staff to make use of it as a weapon, the tome bearer is simply holding an implement you have access to, but not in the DiS sense.

That's how I see it anyway. 



The Tome Bearer is obviously not "your off hand."  If you don't have Staff Fighting, then you can hold the staff in each hand all you want, but you don't have multiple implements.  If you do have Staff Fighting, then the rules say that a double weapon counts as two weapons, both of which are the staff, and thus both valid for DIS.

Incidentally, the weapon/implement thing shows up all over the place, especially for sorcerers, who have two weapon types as their native implements..  Things such as Weapon of Speed's minor RBA work because it is both a weapon and an implement (so do all of the Dragonshards, which is why damaging wizards all use staffs, unless they get some other weapliment).
Still new to this forum so I am unfamiliar with doing multiple quotes.

Except that this isn't the way dual wielding works in 4e.  You can hold a [1h] weapon in each hand all you want, and you can attack with either.  But unless you have something that says you attack with both weapons, you don't, and they don't add damage to the other one.

I wasn't refereing to being bale to attack with both weapons, I was talking about flavor.  A dual wielding warrior is choosing to forego protection from a shield and control from having a free hand in order to hold more weapons. Same principle with DIS, althought the shield part doesnt apply.

What does that have to do with anything?"

 I was addressing the OP's question, in which he asked if his quarter staff is considered his offhand, when he casts throught the tome his familliar is carrying. I was trying to illustrate that a staff is not considered the off hand since while yes he may be using both hands to hold it, only 1 hand is holding a implement. And thus there is no off hand implement since he is wielding it (the implement) only in one hand.

I have not read anything on sorcerers yet so I do not know what rules may have been added (or given more detail) with respect to a weapon becoming an implement.  But in my opinion the tome bearing familiar and DiS cannot be used in the way the OP is suggesting.
 
I was addressing the OP's question, in which he asked if his quarter staff is considered his offhand, when he casts throught the tome his familliar is carrying. I was trying to illustrate that a staff is not considered the off hand since while yes he may be using both hands to hold it, only 1 hand is holding a implement. And thus there is no off hand implement since he is wielding it (the implement) only in one hand.



Now it makes sense! Thanks. 



I have not read anything on sorcerers yet so I do not know what rules may have been added (or given more detail) with respect to a weapon becoming an implement.  But in my opinion the tome bearing familiar and DiS cannot be used in the way the OP is suggesting.
 



Nothing specific to sorcerors; it's just that they natively get staffs and daggers as implements.  Since they are also weapons, things like Eberron Dragonshards can be used with them (have to be attached to a weapon), and they can have weapon enchantments (for example, Weapon of Speed, which works on daggers, and gives you a minor action encounter power to make a ranged basic attack "with this weapon").