Alternative Cost: Avenge

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Bitterblood Witch    4B
Deathtouch
Avenge 3- 1B (Whenever you take 3 or more damage
from a single source, you may cast this for its avenge cost)
When _ etb, target player discards two cards.
1/2    

Pitchfork Pesants    6W
Avenge 3- 1WW 
5/5

Ironhouse Vigilante   3R
Double Strike
Avenge 3-  RR
2/2  

Mob Justice   4W
Put four 1/1 white Human tokens onto the battlefield.
Avenge 3- 1RW

Second Coming   6WW
You gain 20 life.
Avenge 3- 4W

Ashes of the Corrupter   6BB
Avenge 3- 4BB
Ashes of the Corrupter does 6 damage to target creature. Its controller loses 6 life and you gain 6 life.

Infernal Monstrosity   6RB
Flying
Avenge 3- 3RB
When " " etb, it does 2 damage to each creature you don't control.
5/5

Retribution Bolt   3RR
Avenge 3- 1R
Retribution Bolt does 5 damage to target creature or player.
Seems fine.
Avenge 4...whenever you take 5 or more damage? Why N+1? It'd be more intuitive to just stick with Avenge 4=4+ damage, etc.

Also, the templating is a bit off:

Avenge 4 -- 1B (Whenever a single source deals 4 or more damage to you, you may cast this card for its Avenge cost.)

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Shouldn't the first one be 4 damage or have Avenge 5?

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I really like bitterblood witch just for being a discard spell that MIGHT be constructed playable
Avenge 4...whenever you take 5 or more damage? Why N+1? It'd be more intuitive to just stick with Avenge 4=4+ damage, etc.

Also, the templating is a bit off:

Avenge 4 -- 1B (Whenever a single source deals 4 or more damage to you, you may cast this card for its Avenge cost.)

Ah... that was an error. I designed these cards on the fly, and I changed it from 5 to 4 to make the alternative cost more likely to matter. That's actually very significant because it affects all of the other cards aswell.
Like Metalcraft, Fateful Hour or Battalion, I think the number needs to be locked in.  If the numbers are too variable, the mechanic loses that cohesive feeling and just seems arbitrary.  Also makes it harder to play around.  If every card required five damage to "switch on" then choices for burn spells and mid-sized creatures get slightly more interesting as your opponents try to play around the mechanic.  If some switch at three damage, some at six, some at five etc. then there's nothing to play around.

I think Five is good at the current power level, but I feel like Four would play better with a slightly less swingy effect attached. 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Like Metalcraft, Fateful Hour or Battalion, I think the number needs to be locked in.  If the numbers are too variable, the mechanic loses that cohesive feeling and just seems arbitrary.  Also makes it harder to play around.  If every card required five damage to "switch on" then choices for burn spells and mid-sized creatures get slightly more interesting as your opponents try to play around the mechanic.  If some switch at three damage, some at six, some at five etc. then there's nothing to play around.

I think Five is good at the current power level, but I feel like Four would play better with a slightly less swingy effect attached. 

It's damage from a single source. How often does one take 5 damage from a single source? If I can't make it so that it isn't a single source, because then it would only work on instants. You might be right that I should choose a standard number though... 3 seems like the correct mental threshold because that's where "small creature" becomse large creature. Eg Wolf token/ Hill Giant.
I'm with Fallingman that these should be standardized. It seems like they would be frustrating to play with and against because the variability would lead to too diverse a range of possible strategies and outcomes.

Also, it feels weird that your mob tokens don't have a creature type... and that your mobs are 1/1 creatures. That seems small for a mob.

That said, I really like the flavor of this ability. Very evocative. 
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Based on the wording of the ability, I thought you intended the spells to be cast as if they had Flash when you use the Avenge cost.  Since it uses "When" instead of "If".  Plus I don't think they'd ever be playable otherwise, 'cause there aren't many things that would deal damage to you on your own turn.

Of course the other problem is that triggered abilities (When/Whenever/At etc) can never trigger from a hidden zone.  Miracle only works the way it does because it triggers off of the reveal, not the card draw itself (although I really don't recommend trying to copy Miracle, there are much easier ways)  Alternate wording that should work, with no triggers required:

Avenge (You may cast this spell for its avenge cost as though it had flash as long as a single source dealt N or more damage to you this turn.)
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Based on the wording of the ability, I thought you intended the spells to be cast as if they had Flash when you use the Avenge cost.  Since it uses "When" instead of "If".  Plus I don't think they'd ever be playable otherwise, 'cause there aren't many things that would deal damage to you on your own turn.

Of course the other problem is that triggered abilities (When/Whenever/At etc) can never trigger from a hidden zone.  Miracle only works the way it does because it triggers off of the reveal, not the card draw itself (although I really don't recommend trying to copy Miracle, there are much easier ways)  Alternate wording that should work, with no triggers required:

Avenge (You may cast this spell for its avenge cost as though it had flash as long as a single source dealt N or more damage to you this turn.)

I didn't know that. Can that rule can be changed/ broken/ignored? The suggested wording, while the shortest wording possible, seems less intuitive, less flavourful, and simply less sexy than the new one suggested by IceMetalMan.
I don't see any way to ignore the rule.  Triggered abilities go on the stack and then they resolve after all players pass priority, but you can't just have an undefined ability sitting on the stack with no visible rules or effects on it.  If you want it to work, you need to kludge in something like "You may reveal this card from your hand as a source deals damage to you" which just adds an extra step that's even less intuitive.  I suppose a worldwide change to the rules could fix it, if it was really a huge issue.

Flavorwise, you lose the requirement that you need to "Avenge" yourself at the exact moment that the damage happens or not at all, but I don't think that matters much.  The Traps in Zendikar had similar gameplay, where you could cast them later in the turn even long after the trap had been "sprung", and I don't think the flavor suffered one bit.

It would also add to the flavor though if you made more cards that could do interesting stuff post-combat.  The Traps were very strongly linked in a "thing happens, thing-relevant trap effect happens" way, so maybe the Avengers could be similar.  Vanilla creatures with Avenge costs aren't the best candidates.  Things like Avenging Arrow or Assassinate could be cool though.   Maybe a way to recover lost creatures from the graveyard, or finish off wounded creatures.  Just spitting out ideas. 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Seems fine.



Though flavor wants it more in red, followed by white. Black begins with "I am not in any way weaker than you! I don't need to do things that exploit my own weakness!"

Yeah, I know, Xanatos Gambit. But still...
139359831 wrote:
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Seems fine.



Though flavor wants it more in red, followed by white. Black begins with "I am not in any way weaker than you! I don't need to do things that exploit my own weakness!"

Yeah, I know, Xanatos Gambit. But still...

A) "You may 1B rather than pay Bitterblood Witch's mana cost if you took 3 or more damage from a single source this turn." Don't know how to give it flash, though. Perhaps: "Bitterheart Witch has flash if you took 3 or more damage this turn."

B) You may cast this spell for its avenge cost as though it had flash as long as a single source dealt 3 or more damage to you this turn.


C) Bitterheart Witch has flash and costs 3 less to play as long as you took 3 or more damage this turn from a single source.

This is really hard.   

Flash is more of a blue/green thing. It's only used in other colors for blink cards, combat tricks, and the like on legs.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Flash is more of a blue/green thing. It's only used in other colors for blink cards, combat tricks, and the like on legs.

Flash is a necessity here simply for the technology (?) it offers.

Stop being annoying, bay falconer. I don't like it. I never know if you're trolling or not.


Flash is more of a blue/green thing. It's only used in other colors for blink cards, combat tricks, and the like on legs.



I think it's justifiable if flash is required for the mechanic to function usefully.

(PS. I don't know if bay falconer is being annoying elsewhere, but I don't see how this particular comment is annoying on its own...) 
The World of Eldangard - a three act M:tG block by Fallingman Eldangard Stormfront Ragnarok
Flash is more of a blue/green thing. It's only used in other colors for blink cards, combat tricks, and the like on legs.



I think it's justifiable if flash is required for the mechanic to function usefully.

(PS. I don't know if bay falconer is being annoying elsewhere, but I don't see how this particular comment is annoying on its own...) 

He's annoyed in the past.

This time, I find it hard to understand how exactly he came to believe this was strongly out of the W/R/B colour pie and I had no idea how flash was commonly used. But like I said, I don't know if he's being annoying on purpose or not.
 The Traps in Zendikar had similar gameplay, where you could cast them later in the turn even long after the trap had been "sprung", and I don't think the flavor suffered one bit.

It would also add to the flavor though if you made more cards that could do interesting stuff post-combat.  The Traps were very strongly linked in a "thing happens, thing-relevant trap effect happens" way, so maybe the Avengers could be similar.  Vanilla creatures with Avenge costs aren't the best candidates.  Things like Avenging Arrow or Assassinate could be cool though.   Maybe a way to recover lost creatures from the graveyard, or finish off wounded creatures.  Just spitting out ideas. 




I prefer the mechanic to create battles for control and changes in the dominant player, which is done best with creatures. However, everyone is of course 
welcome to create their own cards with the mechanic. Anyway, I think we can declare this thread closed, unless anyone has the perfect solution to the wording problem.
With regards to issue of flash, most cards with flash have it to facilitate some effect of the card. White, blue, and green actually have around the same amount of flash, though blue and green are the two colors that usually grant flash, but plenty of abilities in all colors allow you to cast at unusual times in all five colors. Look at miracle, you can cast sorceries with it during your draw phase. I don't think granting it flash is too terribly out of colors.
Hmmm, it's a tossup. Making it avenge # (cost) is putting more numbrs into the keyword than I'm comfortable with. I do like the idea of scaling avenge costs though.
I suggest either choosing a single number for triggering avenge and listing a reduced cost, or having the avenge trigger be variable but the cost a constant when triggerd.
Avenge N (you may flash cast this for N less mana
               when you take N damage from a single source) 

I know that isn't quite the same.
NO WAR

 

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Hmmm, it's a tossup. Making it avenge # (cost) is putting more numbrs into the keyword than I'm comfortable with. I do like the idea of scaling avenge costs though.
I suggest either choosing a single number for triggering avenge and listing a reduced cost, or having the avenge trigger be variable but the cost a constant when triggerd.

Avenge 1B (You may cast this card for 1B and as if it had Flash if you took 3 or more damage this turn from a single source)

Avenge 1B (1B: Cast this card without paying its mana cost. Use this ability only if you took 3 or more damage from a single source this turn.)

Avenge 2 (You may cast this without paying its mana cost and as if it had Flash if you took 2 or more damage this turn from a single source)

I guess it comes down to gameplay. I'll admit I haven't tested this mechanic at all. Certainly the last one seems like it would play quite well.

Infernal Abomination    6BR
Flying
Avenge 5
7/6

It would be awesome to Flash this out for (0), but wouldn't happen all that often. Which is fine, because the card only really appeals to Timmy anyway.

The only problem is that once you take a chunk of damage, you basically get to empty your hand. I wouldn't want that to be easy enough to deter attacking, which is why having a cost to pay was so advantageous. It also allowed for "shields down" moments when you can alpha away without fear.

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