Memory Issues

28 posts / 0 new
Last post
Why does Second Sunrise and similar cards work?

I thought cards changing zones become new objects.
My best guess is that that objects in the graveyard can tell you where they came from without using LKI or anything like that.
My best guess is that that objects in the graveyard can tell you where they came from without using LKI or anything like that.



How and why?
They do become new objects, but obviously this spell can look at all occurrences this turn of cards going from the battlefield to the graveyard and hunt for those cards in the second zone if they're still there.

A card that left the graveyard to exile and returned to the graveyard (say via Mimic Vat) wouldn't be returned by Second Sunrise.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

They do become new objects, but obviously this spell can look at all occurrences this turn of cards going from the battlefield to the graveyard and hunt for those cards in the second zone if they're still there.



But wouldn't then the spell be worded differently? Like "Each player returns to the battlefield all artifact, creature, enchantment, and land cards in his or her graveyard that share a name with permanents that were put there from the battlefield this turn. If a number of permanents with the same name were put into the graveyard this turn, that number is equal to the number of permanents with that name returned.".

Because as is, the current wording still implies to an extent that what you have in the graveyards are not actually new objects, and that they (the physical cards) were in a different zone in the current game, which...doesn't make sense. 
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.

This is a useful rule, but it can be a bit misleading when you start to ask about things like Second Sunrise, Phage the Untouchable, and Increasing Devotion. We're meant to focus on the points that:

A) objects in Magic are instanced, and
B) a single card can, at different times, represent different objects

To focus on the "no memory/no relation" part breaks the game right in half. In some capacity, objects are aware of what they once were. But they are not the same objects, and nothing about the old object is retained unless it's asked for.
The objects usually (there are some exceptions in 400.7) have no relation to or knowledge of their past existance, however, the game knows. It tracks where everything is and was, so the spell works as worded because its accessing the game record.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

I do wonder why none of the 400.7 exceptions apply...  But I believe it's simply because Second Sunrise obviously looks for objects in the graveyard, and that the fact that those objects moved there from the battlefield this turn is information that the game has access to. It's not really a contradiction to 400.7. The object doesn't need to keep memory of its past existence for the game to identify it.
Magic The Gathering DCI Lvl 1 Judge Don't hesitate to post rules question in the Rules Q&A forum for me and other competent advisors to answer : http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/view/75842/134778/Rules_Q38A
I think the simple answer is that while the game objects represented by the physical cards in your graveyard may not remember their previous existence (and hence be untrackable by the game) as far as I know there isn't a rule that prohibits the game from being able to track the movement of physical objects.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

It's mostly meaningless to say that objects cannot track information while the game itself can. Objects can "request" any type of information from the game if it's needed. Whatever the game tracks, so too do objects within the game.

Any scenario that relies on information being "lost" by zone changes also relies on the fact that the effect is looking for a specific instance of an object.
I'm confused by your response to my response, which probably means that I was unclear and you misunderstood me. I was responding to the OP suggesting that Second Sunrise isn't looking for game objects: it's looking for physical objects. And while game objects don't maintain a continuous existence across zone changes, the physical objects that represent them (if any) do.

I do agree that its meaningless to specify what specifically might be doing the tracking (which is what I think you were saying). But that also entirely tangential, hence my confusion.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

but it doesn't track cards

if a card is "filtered" through Mimic Vat Second Sunrise will not find it
proud member of the 2011 community team
I don't see support for that in the rulings on Mimic Vat and there aren't any rulings for Second Sunrise. Can you please share what makes that so?

EDIT: The rulings for Faith's Reward don't address that either. 

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

A card from mimic vat was not put into the GY from the battlefield. It came from exile.
Why does Second Sunrise and similar cards work?

I thought cards changing zones become new objects.

What's that got to do with Second Sunrise? Second Sunrise does not and needs not keep track of objects across zones. It finds objects in the graveyard, and does not care about them once the players move them out of there.

There's no relevant 400.7 exception since 400.7 doesn't apply. Nothing is needed about its past or future existance.

My best guess is that you believe Second Sunrise asks "to where did the object you once were on the battleffield move", but it merely asks "where did you move from?"

But which rule does apply in this situation?

The closest I could find was
608.2g If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that's become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it's in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it's no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object's last known information. See rule 112.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it's the object as it exists -- or as it most recently existed -- that does it, not the ability.



But the term "current information" isn't defined anywhere in the rules 
I can't find a specific rules quote about this, but precedent from other cards implies that objects know which zone they came from. They also know when they started to exist. As a result, cards in your graveyard know whether they were put there from the battlefield, and whether they were put into the graveyard this turn. Second Sunrise will put all objects that answer "yes" to these two questions onto the battlefield.
Rules Advisor
@Fezzhead: My understanding of the rules says that if someone were to filter all the cards through a Mimic Vat that none of those cards would be returned to the field because they are new game objects.

However, reading through rules 108 and 109 I can't find any proof of this and those rules appear to give a contrary answer to this understanding.
109.2a If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes the word “card” and the name of a zone, it means a card matching that description in the stated zone.

If a creature dies and its card goes to the graveyard as a new object, Mimic Vat triggers and exiles it and later on the same turn Vat returns that card to the graveyard from exile. When Second Sunrise is looking for objects matching the criteria, presumably it would find the previously existing object (that got exiled) and according to 109.2a find a card in the zone "matching that description" even though it's not the same game object.

Or perhaps Sunrise can only seek out currently existing objects in the graveyard and wouldn't return those cards that had left and returned because the original object no longer exists, that would work within the framework of my understanding.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

If a creature dies and its card goes to the graveyard as a new object, Mimic Vat triggers and exiles it and later on the same turn Vat returns that card to the graveyard from exile. When Second Sunrise is looking for objects matching the criteria, presumably it would find the previously existing object (that got exiled) and according to 109.2a find a card in the zone "matching that description" even though it's not the same game object.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Any card that was exiled by Mimic Vat and then put back into the graveyard wouldn't fit the criteria of "creature card in a graveyard put there from the battlefield this turn" because it was put there from exile. Objects know what zone they came from, but have no memory of their existence in that zone, so I assume they don't know what zone the object they were in exile came from. Although I suppose Phage the Untouchable would require that information...
Rules Advisor
But which rule does apply in this situation?

Which situation, Second Sunrise querying the object where it came from? I'm not sure there's a rule that says what the game can query. Why do you think one is needed? If the game tells you to do it, why do you need a rule that says it's allowed to tell you to do it?

@Fezzhead: My understanding of the rules says that if someone were to filter all the cards through a Mimic Vat that none of those cards would be returned to the field because they are new game objects.

However, reading through rules 108 and 109 I can't find any proof of this and those rules appear to give a contrary answer to this understanding.
109.2a If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that includes the word “card” and the name of a zone, it means a card matching that description in the stated zone.


The card cycled through Mimic Vat didn't get moved from the battlefield, it got moved from exile. As such, it doesn't match the description. It was a different card that got moved from the battelfield. Don't forget that card is a type of object, so 400.7 applies here.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Any card that was exiled by Mimic Vat and then put back into the graveyard wouldn't fit the criteria of "creature card in a graveyard put there from the battlefield this turn" because it was put there from exile.

But Mimic Vat uses a triggered ability to exile the creature from the graveyard. So there does exist a time whan that card is in the graveyard, and arrived there from the battlefield. So my question is why isn't a card in my graveyard which had previously been put there from the battlefield not "a card put into my graveyard from the battlefield"?

It was a different card that got moved from the battelfield. Don't forget that card is a type of object, so 400.7 applies here.

I don't buy this. It is most definitely the same card, and I can offer any number of different ways to prove that.

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

It was a different card that got moved from the battelfield. Don't forget that card is a type of object, so 400.7 applies here.

I don't buy this. It is most definitely the same card, and I can offer any number of different ways to prove that.


Well, here are the only ways that matter:

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or
relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
400.7a Effects from spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities that change the characteristics
of a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to the permanent that spell becomes. (Second Sunrise doesn't affects permanents or spells.)
400.7b Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to
apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes. (Second Sunrise doesn't deal damage.)
400.7c If an ability of a permanent requires information about choices made as that permanent was
cast as a spell, including what mana was spent to cast that spell, it uses information about the
spell that became that permanent as it resolved. (Second Sunrise doesn't have any choices to make.)
400.7d Abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, "When
Rancor is put into a graveyard from the battlefield") can find the new object that it became in
the zone it moved to when the ability triggered, if that zone is a public zone. (Second Sunrise isn't a triggered ability.)
400.7e Abilities of Auras that trigger when the enchanted permanent leaves the battlefield can find
the new object that Aura became in its owner’s graveyard if it was put into that graveyard at the
same time the enchanted permanent left the battlefield. It can also find the new object that Aura
became in its owner’s graveyard as a result of being put there as a state-based action for not
being attached to a permanent. (See rule 704.5n.) (Second Sunrise isn't an Aura.)
400.7f If an effect grants a nonland card an ability that allows it to be cast, that ability will continue
to apply to the new object that card became after it moved to the stack as a result of being cast
this way. (Second Sunrise doesn't let you cast anything.)
400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one
zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object
moved to a public zone. (The cards in your graveyard got there long before Second Sunrise was cast.)

Since none of the exceptions apply, the object represented by the physical creature card has no relation to the object that was previously represented by that same card.
Rules Advisor
Then how are we answering the OP's question?

"Proc" stands for "Programmed Random OCcurance". It does not even vaguely apply to anything Magic cards do. Don't use it.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

Zammm = Batman

"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

It was a different card that got moved from the battelfield. Don't forget that card is a type of object, so 400.7 applies here.

I don't buy this. It is most definitely the same card, and I can offer any number of different ways to prove that.

It might be the same physical card, but MTG doesn't care about that. It only cares about game objects. That card is different object than the card it was in exile, which was a different object than the card it was in the graveyard, which was a different object than the permanent it was on the battlefield.

"No it's not" is not a valid argument. "I have proof" is not a valid argument. You'll have to do much better than that if you want to convince anyone. Start "offering".
but MTG doesn't care about that.

As written, 109.2a definitely says it cares about cards.

It likely should say a currently existing object represented by that card instead of just a card.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Then how are we answering the OP's question?

As I explained, Second Sunrise doesn't ask about any object other than those currently in the graveyard, so it doesn't matter that card become new objects when they change zone. It just asks what action created them, and they were obviously around when they got created!

As written, 109.2a definitely says it cares about cards.

Cards, yes. Why do you 109.2a is talking about physical cards instead of cards? Look two rules higher.
109.1. An object is an ability on the stack, a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, a permanent, or an emblem.



It likely should say a currently existing object represented by that card instead of just a card.

Would it make sense for a rule, any rule, to use "a currently existing object represented by that permanent" instead of "permament"? No. So it makes no sense for it to do so for "card". They are both types of game objects.
Sign In to post comments