It's been quite difficult getting deck help...

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just sayin.

Also, as a general question, which decks seem easiest to get help in construction and which seem the most interesting on a board level? 
People tend to look at decks by famous posters, or popular ones. This has become less "deck help" and more, "show off your rouge decks".
I think the amount and quality of advice you get depend on a number of factors:

1. Is the design well conceived, cohesive, likely to be competitive, and original?
2. Is the deck list complete, well organized, and nicely formatted?
3. Does the posting demonstrate that you have put in some effort, by researching the deck archetype, describing the concepts behind the deck, reporting test playing results, or describing specific questions/challenges, etc.?

Having said that, right now shortly after the arrival of a new expansion set the Standard Deck Help forum has been flooded with postings, with people throwing out new ideas. While a lot of them are good and interesting, many can be best described as throwing out ideas with the hope that they will stick. The sheer quantity alone makes it difficult to keep up and threads easily fall into oblivion onto the second page.
I have to disagree with Hreth a bit on this one.

1. You often see multiple posts on absolutely terrible decks. One reason for this is that for an experienced poster, it is easy to provide suggestions that will definitely improve a bad deck. 
2. Sometimes, incomplete decklists will motivate people to ask... where is the rest? I had a guy post a 5 color deck without posting his mana, he would just claim it had been 'no problem' for him. Its possible this was simply a tactic to get more posts on his deck. He got plenty of replies.
3. I have often written at length about decks I considered quite competitive. I find very few people would respond. Honestly, if the deck is competitive and you have playtested significantly, the number of posters on these boards qualified to give advice without significant playtesting is quite low. If someone has put in a lot of work, I often find I need to playtest their list to offer suggestions. That said, if your deck is very original and does well at a significant tournament, you are likely to have a very popular thread. People do respect large tournament success especially if the poster is the innovator, see Caldera42's epic experiment thread. 

I believe people post on decks they personally like. If someone has been dying to make a simic deck and they see a thread about simic, they are reasonably likely to post. You see an incredible number of threads on things like B/W exalted, B/R vamires, unplayable mill. There are currently a ton of threads about Red deck wins and Boros. This is because people are interested in those decks, and they get responses. You can also include a compelling story (Hreth crowdsourced his daughters gift, and I believe his thread title contributed to his thread's popularity)

And, as above, people tend to respond well to certain popular posters. I would take a look at how those posters construct their threads, as their layout may contribute to the threads success.
i really only "prefer" discussing decks that actually have some merit to them.  absolute piles are very hard to give worthwhile feedback to since the suggestions you give likely won't mean much to the asker.  if they don't understand the changes, then what is the point of giving advice.  more people need more trial and error.  this is why very often theory decks are bad to post (i know, i know, i'm guilty of this too).

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I have to disagree with Hreth a bit on this one.

I agree with you that I overemphasized the need for the deck to be competitive. More broadly, people volunteer their time with comments when it is rewarding to do so. This can be because a deck is competive and people want to hone it, but it can also be, as you suggest, a less effective deck that needs substantial improvement. Or it can be a deck that strikes some emotional response because of its originality. Speaking for myself, I'm definitely more likely to comment if the deck is something that I might play or that I might want in my test suite. I care about the appearance of the deck list and whether the card names are linked, but others may not. There is probably as much variation in motivations for posting as there are variations in deck lists.

Honestly, if the deck's not auto-carded and/or has no clear theme or win condition, I tend to pass it over.  If the poster sounds like they are newish and need a little guidance, I may stick around to shoo them in the right direction. 

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

In your last decklist post you didn't engender discussion. Instead, it came across like you were politely explaining to people why they were wrong. Not to mention the deck just didn't look very fun to run, which is prob why a lot of people didn't say anything.

I would've looked up more of your posts/decklists but you've set your post settings to private so I can't see what you've posted in the past.

Just be patient. Post on people's decklists. Don't get defensive if someone points out something you've said is dumb or wrong. Become a likable presence and offer good advice and people will respond to your comments and your threads. You can't expect people to give a damn about someone they don't know or respect, especially on the internet.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

also note that this forum has lost A LOT of prominent posters from the old days, even from just a year or 2 ago.

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

https://soundcloud.com/burning_forest

 

Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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I agree with Hreth's clarification and the above posters. rstnme brings up a good point about 'fun'. I remember he posted a sweet disciple of bolas green/black list, and I was motivated to post because (a) his list looked like a ton of fun (b) I could see several area I knew I could give helpful suggestions, and (c) the deck was original and had the potential to be competitive. and (d) he came across as a reasonable individual willing to take valid suggestions. 

I also notice that getting responses does take time, and rstnme also mentions posting on others decks. I often find people much more willing to post on my decks if I have worked on their decks as well. I mentioned people follow popular posters, but those people typically have thousands of posts and their reputations are generally well earned from the content I have seen.  

 
I agree with Hreth's clarification and the above posters. rstnme brings up a good point about 'fun'. I remember he posted a sweet disciple of bolas green/black list, and I was motivated to post because (a) his list looked like a ton of fun (b) I could see several area I knew I could give helpful suggestions, and (c) the deck was original and had the potential to be competitive. and (d) he came across as a reasonable individual willing to take valid suggestions. 

I also notice that getting responses does take time, and rstnme also mentions posting on others decks. I often find people much more willing to post on my decks if I have worked on their decks as well. I mentioned people follow popular posters, but those people typically have thousands of posts and their reputations are generally well earned from the content I have seen.  

 



Thanks mr. physics. Actually, to flex off his point, I now pretty much read all of his deck posts, even if I don't comment on all of them, specifically because he was really helpful and gave some good decisions and gives me lots of things to think about. So, there ya go.

I found Carmen Sandiego before you were born unless you're Zlehtnoba.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I'm much more likely to open a thread with a solid title.    I usually skip over the "U/B/R Zombie Burn-Control" thread.  Find out what your deck does.  Snazzy titles for decks like "Cephalid Breakfast" are largely antiquated now.  Is your deck Tempo, Aggro, Midrange, Control, Combo and what colors are you in?  If you want to post the centerpiece card instead (like UWR Delver) that's fine too.  Keep it simple basically.  That's all I really need in a title.  It's hard for people to comment if they're not even bothering to open the thread.

Oh, and check before posting a new thread.  It's a good possibility there is a similar thread in the first few pages of deck help or in the Tournament Centers.  I forget to do this sometimes too, but it's just a good habit to get into.  Helps reduce the clutter and spark better discussion.

Hopefully none of this comes off as rude or preachy, just the way I feel when I'm scouring these forums.
   I usually skip over the "U/B/R Zombie Burn-Control" thread.  Find out what your deck does.  Snazzy titles for decks like "Cephalid Breakfast" are largely antiquated now.  Is your deck Tempo, Aggro, Midrange, Control, Combo and what colors are you in?  If you want to post the centerpiece card instead (like UWR Delver) that's fine too.  Keep it simple basically.  That's all I really need in a title.  It's hard for people to comment if they're not even bothering to open the thread.



Didn't sound preachy to me, but it is a bit confusing.  I THINK you're saying to post titles simlar to "U/B/R Zombie Burn-Control" and not "Cephalid Breakfast" right?  Just that you, personally, are tired of Zombie Burn-Control decklists.

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   I usually skip over the "U/B/R Zombie Burn-Control" thread.  Find out what your deck does.  Snazzy titles for decks like "Cephalid Breakfast" are largely antiquated now.  Is your deck Tempo, Aggro, Midrange, Control, Combo and what colors are you in?  If you want to post the centerpiece card instead (like UWR Delver) that's fine too.  Keep it simple basically.  That's all I really need in a title.  It's hard for people to comment if they're not even bothering to open the thread.



Didn't sound preachy to me, but it is a bit confusing.  I THINK you're saying to post titles simlar to "U/B/R Zombie Burn-Control" and not "Cephalid Breakfast" right?  Just that you, personally, are tired of Zombie Burn-Control decklists.




I just meant keep the title simple.  Titles like "U/B Control" or "Naya Midrange" or "UBW Exquisite-Blood Combo" work for me.  It seems like sometimes people want to make up some witty way to describe their deck or jam too many competing ideas into the title.  Kind of makes me glaze over when I see either one of those things.  Sorry for the confusion.  Just one guy's opinion.
just sayin.

Also, as a general question, which decks seem easiest to get help in construction and which seem the most interesting on a board level? 




I help until I hear the words "I can't afford such and such card" or "Such and such card is about to cycle" that's where I stop helping. 

My personal philosophy--in life, not just magic-- is no advice is better than bad advice and I absolutely cannot, in good conscience, recommend bad cards when I know better cards exist.  The last "cheap" deck that was really, really, really good was turboinfect and that's now defunct as far as Standard is concerned.

Even mono-red beaty face decks are going to cost a considerable amount of money for some, due largely to Thundermaw Hellkite and Hellrider.

Other than that I try to help people unless its just a hodge-podge of cards that really has no point or is poorly designed.  A good example is the mill-burn decks that pop up from time to time on here.  In which case I still help, but it's very general and usually something along the lines of "go burn or go mill not both".
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Idk, it just seems odd to me. I feel like most of the time I've followed most of the suggestions people have read without really trying. I've put my two cents in on what I feel to be quite a few listings and whatnot, my titles seem pretty clear to me (usually title and type description), I've put up a variety of decks (some I feel to be pretty good and competitive while some are fun combo or interactions I think are funny), and the listings are put up are organized by type/cmc/actualy mc.

I'm aware that in the BUG tempo listing I wasn't exactly 100% on board with bad suggestions, but I went with the good ones. And I think there were only 4 responses to that which weren't me. Of the suggestions to include more removal, change up countermagic, take out phantasm for delver, and... that may actually be it... I did the first two, and explained why the third was a bad idea. I think one person actually came back for a conversation and that was it. The main point though was that it seems like a bunch of stuff goes completely unanswered. Not specifically one thread or even my threads. This community seems pretty developed and you need to have been here for a while to get much response. I keep losing interest but at least I see some fun listings here.


edit: meh 
I can't speak for everyone, but I know I'm much more likely to open a thread with a solid title.    I usually skip over the "U/B/R Zombie Burn-Control" thread.  Find out what your deck does.  Snazzy titles for decks like "Cephalid Breakfast" are largely antiquated now.  Is your deck Tempo, Aggro, Midrange, Control, Combo and what colors are you in?  If you want to post the centerpiece card instead (like UWR Delver) that's fine too.  Keep it simple basically.  That's all I really need in a title.  It's hard for people to comment if they're not even bothering to open the thread.

Oh, and check before posting a new thread.  It's a good possibility there is a similar thread in the first few pages of deck help or in the Tournament Centers.  I forget to do this sometimes too, but it's just a good habit to get into.  Helps reduce the clutter and spark better discussion.

Hopefully none of this comes off as rude or preachy, just the way I feel when I'm scouring these forums.



I guess you missed my thread titled "That Giant Pit That Leoniads from 300 Kicks That Persian Into" or whatever I had called it.

Frankly, I tend to skip over stuff that's already been posted a million times-like the guild themed decks, because after a while its just pointless, and so many of the threads are the exact same "I have this pile I want to make better, but I don't want your suggestions because I'm too hipster/too poor/Gerry T or some other guy who writes for a website said that card is bad" crap.
I swear, people should seriously just look before they post their piles. It would save them so much time and effort.
If I see something I like or thing is worth posting on, I'll post. I only expect the same from others in the forum (which is why I wasn't upset when my serious decklist I posted during GTC previews went ignored while my silly Descent Into Madness/Assemble the Legions deck got multiple pages), and is also why I haven't ever bothered to post the decks I'm currently playing without someone asking for the list directly - the decks aren't groundbreaking anymore like they used to be, so why should I bother? 

(at)MrEnglish22

I've seen a few things on this forum regarding help:

When I've posted "hodge-podge" untested decks that worked in my mind (before I realized I was REALLY bad at making competitive decks), I got a lot of suggestions.

Now that I post tested decks which are falling short I don't get as many, and the ones I DO get essentially just morph what I'm already playing into one of the already existing top-decks.  Sometimes I feel like people should just copy the list from whatever top-8 fits the colors you're designing and say "go buy these cards-win".

I'm keeping a log of how often people recommend Rancor just because it in a deck that has green mana, Silverblade Paladin because it has white, or "Why does your control deck not have Blue in it?"

So basically: you're posting on a free forum that will draw comments from serious players with good recommendation, serious players who only know how to buy and play what wins, and players you THINK they are good and make terrible recommendations (pretty sure this is my category).

At the end of the day its up to you to sort the info and test your deck.  I use proxies because I'm not made of money, but if you really want to play in tournies, you can't be afraid to invest in a final product.
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I'm keeping a log of how often people recommend Rancor just because it in a deck that has green mana, Silverblade Paladin because it has white, or "Why does your control deck not have Blue in it?"

I would counter the first point in your log with a longer list of green decks that should have Rancor in it, but don't. Is there a counterargument for not using it in pretty much any green deck that strives to create large creatures? I frequently recommend Rancor in green decks that don't have it, and more often than not I get a response along the lines of "oh, I don't know why I didn't include it, thanks!" or "I would like to include it, but I'm not sure what to take out."

Rancor is the Standard-legal card with the highest community rating on Gatherer. There is a reason for that: It's a very good card. That doesn't mean it should be in every deck with green, but it should be in a lot of them.

I agree that Silverblade Paladin is more situational (and there are other options) and the notion that blue is required for control is just silly.

Yeah, Rancor is good.  WAY good.  I hate on it because of its auto-include status.

Rancor probably pings to a lesson I'm slowly learning posting in this forum: "Theme has no place in competitive play."

Rancor is often off-theme for whatever deck its being suggested for.  But a 100% on theme deck is rarely competitive...if ever.
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The theme should usually be "cards that help me win." 
"Dare to fight, defy difficulties and advance wave upon wave... Monsters of all kinds shall be destroyed." - Mao Zedong
I've got no issue with theme decks. I for one love theme decks for their quirkiness and fun times.

That doesn't mean you should ask for competitive improvement help in regards to that deck.

Also want to address the concept of "auto includes"- there are rarely TRUE auto-includes. Something like Mental Misstep (In Legacy or Modern) is an auto-include. Rancor is NOT an auto include. There are tons of green decks that don't want it. Silverblade is also pretty terrible in a bunch of white decks. Frankly, I don't like it unless you have Sublime Archangel, and thats mostly because of Sublime Archangel.

(at)MrEnglish22

I personally steer away from threads that are named with a quirky fun name. Sure, it's awesome to have a cool name for your deck, but from my experience those deck lists tend to look like the OP spent more time on the name than the list. I prefer clearly broadcasted information. Same with members that don't autocard the deck, but that's me being lazy and not wanting to look things up. I've also been on the forums for about a year so I've seen dozens of "UG Self Mill" or "UR Guttersnipe" and have grown to ignore them at this point.

tl;dr - A lot of members have seen the "original" lists numerous times and they become a chore to help with. Also don't care so much about the title; short and sweet.

EDIT: Also please don't say it's "semi-competetive". Either go play casual or go big and play Standard. While quirky decks CAN win FNMs, they usually won't because there will be people playing the decks you see at a PTQ or SCGO because they are there to win and make money before having fun.
winning and having fun aren't mutually exclusive, for many players

it's been said many times, but i dislike stupid deck names for threads.  i know the deck won't be serious, so i don't care.  something like "WG Human Angel Ramp" is going to be a bad deck.  it just is.

"UR Control".... i'll at least take a look

"RUG [anything]".... i WILL look

"U [anything]".... will at least catch my eye

"R [anyt.... wait... hell no!

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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While winning and fun are not exclusive, I play Standard to win. EDH is for fun.
i mean, i'm winning right now, but i'm not really having fun because i'm forced to play aggro.

i want my blue to stop sucking and my control to stop being unplayable. 

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

I produce Dubstep and House beats:

https://soundcloud.com/burning_forest

 

Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

Photobucket

Also Sleeky I forgot to answer the second part of your question. Non-cute decks will sadly get more attention. Most people here are looking to help and find a new good deck to run at FNM. Staying on top of the winning decks can make a big impact as well. Again, this may be just me (and Forest), but I'm seeing Aggro as the leading archetype. This isn't just because the top deck is Aggro, but because there's a cycle to the best decks. Going left to right, left generally beats right.
Aggro>Control>Midrange>Aggro
Combo decks (though there aren't really any in Standard) usually lose to Aggro, 50/50 against Control, and beat Midrange. So Control was the big archetype a month or so ago with Bant Control and all the life gain. Aggro stepped in because it could kill the opponent before Thragtusk Resto Angel shenanigans. Aggro currently being on top, we can see from the recent PTQ that Midrange is starting to take the reins with Jund and Naya midrange. Depending on how quickly events happen, Control will take the lead again soon.
What I'm getting at is posting a deck that would be relevant and good right now helps. A control deck isn't going to get much attention when Aggro is top dog simply because working on it would be moot. 
i mean, i'm winning right now, but i'm not really having fun because i'm forced to play aggro.

i want my blue to stop sucking and my control to stop being unplayable. 



dawg seriously, get off modo. Control is so much better off modo.

Also, I think we need to start working on a RUG list. I like Master Biomancer and Huntmaster of the Fells. 

(at)MrEnglish22

Rancor probably pings to a lesson I'm slowly learning posting in this forum: "Theme has no place in competitive play."

Rancor is often off-theme for whatever deck its being suggested for.  But a 100% on theme deck is rarely competitive...if ever.

I'm not sure what you mean by theme in this context. Is "tribal" a theme or is "aggro" a theme or do you mean something else?

1) That's format progression for you. Aggro beats everything while lists are fresh. mediocre midrange can't keep up with good aggro. So that usually takes the cake at first. Then midrange one ups aggro and control does the same thing to that. As a meta developes, it becomes much safer to play longer games. This is true in any competitive environment with builds. Just take starcraft or anything else as an example. Of course there are additional factors there but that's just how things work.

2)
The theme should usually be "cards that help me win." 



Lawl. QFT.

Theme: the most effective cards that my lands will support.