Dependency question

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Hypothetical situation:

I control a nonland, noncreature, nonartifact permanent; let's assume it's Nicky.

I tap Liquimetal Coating, which turns a target permanent into an artifact, making Nicky an Artifact Planeswalker.

I then use Animate Artifact, which turns the enchanted artifact into a creature, to turn Nicky into an 8/8 Artifact Planeswalker Creature.

I then use Silverskin Armor, which turns the equipped creature into an artifact.


What happens at the end of my turn, when the effect from Liquimetal Coating wears off?
I assume both Animate Artifact and Silverskin Armor remain attached, since they each provide an effect that fulfils the other's requirements, but I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any weird issues with two attached cards being dependent on eachother (besides the obvious that if one becomes unattached for some reason, the other will as well).

Also, I realize this is more a question for Cards and Combos, but if anyone here happens to know of a less convoluted way to turn a single noncreature permanent of any type into a creature indefinitely, I'd love to hear it.
proud member of the 2011 community team
What happens at the end of my turn, when the effect from Liquimetal Coating wears off?

There are now two effects applying in the type-changing effects layer: animate artifact is trying to turn it into a creature, and silverskin armor is trying to turn it into an artifact. Regardless of the order these are applied, both effects will exist, both will still affect nicky and only nicky, and they will both do the same thing to nicky. As a result, there is no dependency here as far as the rules are concerned (from a higher level view, we can see that they are relying on eachother for their continued existence, but that's not enough to meet the technical definition of being dependent effects). The two effects get applied in timestamp order, not that the order ends up mattering here.
613.7a An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

Due to the two effects, nicky is both an artifact and a creature so when state-based actions get checked, neither animate artifact nor silverskin armor needs to fall off.
Note, that you don't even need Silverskin Armor to keep your planeswalker animated. Animate Artifact already provides the artifact type itself, there is not a time, when the enchanted permanent is not an artifact for SBAs to be concerned about illegally attached auras.

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Once again aced the Rules Advisor test (Feb 2015). (I still make mistakes now and then, but who doesn't.)

 

"Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

also I don't believe dependency plays any role here

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Note, that you don't even need Silverskin Armor to keep your planeswalker animated. Animate Artifact already provides the artifact type itself, there is not a time, when the enchanted permanent is not an artifact for SBAs to be concerned about illegally attached auras.



So it would seem. Interesting.

Thanks, everyone.
Animate Artifact does nothing unless it's attached to a noncreature artifact. Silverskin Armor does nothing unless it's attached to a creature. Since prior to layer 4 they are attached to a nonartifact, noncreature planeswalker, they both fail to do anything. When SBAs are applied, Animate Artifact will go to the graveyard and Silverskin Armor will become unattached.
Comment on rule theory
Note, that you don't even need Silverskin Armor to keep your planeswalker animated. Animate Artifact already provides the artifact type itself

This is true, and is furthermore confirmed by rule
205.1b
205.1b Some effects change an object’s card type, supertype, or subtype but specify that the object retains a prior card type, supertype, or subtype. In such cases, all the object’s prior card types, supertypes, and subtypes are retained. This rule applies to effects that use the phrase “in addition to its types” or that state that something is “still a [type, supertype, or subtype].” Some effects state that an object becomes an “artifact creature”; these effects also allow the object to retain all of its prior card types and subtypes.
I, however, feel this is a mistake from Wizards, for two reasons:
1) The original (Alpha, Beta & Unlimited) printed functionality of Animate Artifact did NOT grant redundant artifactness; they only granted creatureness.
2) Rule 205.1b creates an exceptional case for artifact creature which is not warranted and exists only for (disputable) convenience. This rule should be revisited. Animating an artifact should follow the same rules as all other animations: it should grant creatureness and provide a «it's still an artifact» clause.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.                        -Albert Einstein

 

So, you keep on voting, and you keep expecting different results from those elections?

How long have you tried this, over and over?

Ain't it time you reached a different conclusion about this whole mascarade?

Animate Artifact doesn't care if it's attached to a non-artifact, just that it is a non-creature. "Enchanted artifact" just refers to the permanent it's attached to, which normally has to be an artifact. But it really just means "the object it's attached to".

I just started up a Draft experiment in the Limited forums. If you're interested in Draft, come and check it out.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/limited-sealed-and-draft/threads/4206961

 

Once again aced the Rules Advisor test (Feb 2015). (I still make mistakes now and then, but who doesn't.)

 

"Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

Animate Artifact does nothing unless it's attached to a noncreature artifact. Silverskin Armor does nothing unless it's attached to a creature. Since prior to layer 4 they are attached to a nonartifact, noncreature planeswalker, they both fail to do anything. When SBAs are applied, Animate Artifact will go to the graveyard and Silverskin Armor will become unattached.

You'll have to back this up with some rules...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.                        -Albert Einstein

 

So, you keep on voting, and you keep expecting different results from those elections?

How long have you tried this, over and over?

Ain't it time you reached a different conclusion about this whole mascarade?

Animate Artifact doesn't care if it's attached to a non-artifact, just that it is a non-creature.




??
303.4c If an Aura is enchanting an illegal object or player as defined by its enchant ability and other applicable effects, the object it was attached to no longer exists, or the player it was attached to has left the game, the Aura is put into its owner's graveyard. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)

but SBA aren't checked when the layers are calculated
after the layers are done SBA are checked and will find nothing to complain
proud member of the 2011 community team
Animate Artifact doesn't care if it's attached to a non-artifact, just that it is a non-creature. "Enchanted artifact" just refers to the permanent it's attached to, which normally has to be an artifact. But it really just means "the object it's attached to".

I'm sure it used to be as you say, but this recent official ruling from MTGRules-l confirms I'm right.


> I cast Animate Dead targeting Kitchen Finks in my graveyard. After the
> spell resolves, my opponent Stifles the aura's trigger, leaving it
> enchanting the Finks card in my graveyard.
> Is Animate Dead giving the Finks -1/-0 while in the graveyard? I think not,
> since Finks is a creature card and not a creature, but I'd like some [O]
> confirmation.

It will not get -1/-0.

Animate Dead's ability refers to "enchanted creature", so it will work
only if Animate Dead is attached to a creature, which is not the case
here. Creatures exist only on the battlefield, elsewhere they are
creature cards.

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
MTGRules-L Netrep




Does Animate Artifact even work?
As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature, it's an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.

Wouldn't this continuous effect constantly start and end?

1) enchanted artifact isn't a creature, the continuous effect turns on and grants it type creature,
2) now the enchanted artifact is type creature so the duration of the effect ends and it ceases being a creature,
3) go to 1

Shouldn't it say 
As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature other than by this ability, it's an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.

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Does Animate Artifact even work?
As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature, it's an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.

Wouldn't this continuous effect constantly start and end?

1) enchanted artifact isn't a creature, the continuous effect turns on and grants it type creature,
2) now the enchanted artifact is type creature so the duration of the effect ends and it ceases being a creature,
3) go to 1



I wondered this myself when I re-read Animate Artifact's oracle text.

- - -

Nylon, I don't see how that ruling completely answers the question. That pertains to whether or not "enchant X" refers to the object X (it apparently does not - it only refers to X while X is in the correct zone), not to whether or not X is some other type. Animate Artifact's only enchant restriction is "Enchant Artifact". As long as it's enchanting a permanent and that permanent is an artifact, why would anything else matter? I could see how Animate Artifact could sit there and do nothing, but falling off while it's enchanting an artifact doesn't make sense.
We're back in the land of ABUR White Ward!  (Hovertext shows 4e; pre-4e didn't include the "Does not destroy itself" clause).
Animate Artifact doesn't care if it's attached to a non-artifact, just that it is a non-creature. "Enchanted artifact" just refers to the permanent it's attached to, which normally has to be an artifact. But it really just means "the object it's attached to".

I'm sure it used to be as you say, but this recent official ruling from MTGRules-l confirms I'm right.


> I cast Animate Dead targeting Kitchen Finks in my graveyard. After the
> spell resolves, my opponent Stifles the aura's trigger, leaving it
> enchanting the Finks card in my graveyard.
> Is Animate Dead giving the Finks -1/-0 while in the graveyard? I think not,
> since Finks is a creature card and not a creature, but I'd like some [O]
> confirmation.

It will not get -1/-0.

Animate Dead's ability refers to "enchanted creature", so it will work
only if Animate Dead is attached to a creature, which is not the case
here. Creatures exist only on the battlefield, elsewhere they are
creature cards.

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
MTGRules-L Netrep






Have been browsing the Comp Rules for a quite while now, but can't find anything to indicate either way. I did find a rule, that would apply to your AD example, and would explain, why the creature card's power isn't reduced, but it doesn't have anything to do with "enchanted creature":

403.2. A spell or ability affects and checks only the battlefield unless it specifically mentions a player or another zone.

So the -1/-0 granting ability simply cannot affect the creature card in the graveyard, so it doesn't

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Once again aced the Rules Advisor test (Feb 2015). (I still make mistakes now and then, but who doesn't.)

 

"Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

Does Animate Artifact even work?
As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature, it's an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.

Wouldn't this continuous effect constantly start and end?

1) enchanted artifact isn't a creature, the continuous effect turns on and grants it type creature,
2) now the enchanted artifact is type creature so the duration of the effect ends and it ceases being a creature,
3) go to 1

Shouldn't it say 
As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature other than by this ability, it's an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.



No, it's fine as it is now. When applying continuous effects, you check wether the enchanted artifact is a creature only once : just before you begin to apply the effect in Layer 4. You don't retroactively look at the "as long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature" clause after that.
Animate Artifact's only enchant restriction is "Enchant Artifact". As long as it's enchanting a permanent and that permanent is an artifact, why would anything else matter? I could see how Animate Artifact could sit there and do nothing, but falling off while it's enchanting an artifact doesn't make sense.

But it's not an artifact. It's just a planeswalker.


Have been browsing the Comp Rules for a quite while now, but can't find anything to indicate either way. I did find a rule, that would apply to your AD example, and would explain, why the creature card's power isn't reduced, but it doesn't have anything to do with "enchanted creature":

403.2. A spell or ability affects and checks only the battlefield unless it specifically mentions a player or another zone.

So the -1/-0 granting ability simply cannot affect the creature card in the graveyard, so it doesn't

The rules don't really answer the question, but the official answer I quoted does. As the NetRep said, Animate Dead doesn't apply to the creature card in the graveyard because that card is not a creature. In the same way, Animate Artifact doesn't apply to Bolas because Bolas is not an artifact, and Silverskin Armor doesn't apply to Bolas because Bolas is not a creature.

I would like an actual relevant rules quote, though.

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Once again aced the Rules Advisor test (Feb 2015). (I still make mistakes now and then, but who doesn't.)

 

"Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

You don't retroactively look at the "as long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature" clause after that.

611.3b seems to imply that the clause in the ability is invalid. It wants to make it have a duration like 611.2b which is specifically contrary to the rules so unless we're invoking the Golden Rule here, it doesn't work.

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Does Animate Artifact even work?
As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature, it's an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.

Wouldn't this continuous effect constantly start and end?

1) enchanted artifact isn't a creature, the continuous effect turns on and grants it type creature,
2) now the enchanted artifact is type creature so the duration of the effect ends and it ceases being a creature,
3) go to 1

Shouldn't it say 
As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature other than by this ability, it's an artifact creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost.




No. The condition is checked when you get to that point in the layer system. This isn't any more problematic than Conversion (that also doesn't change things into Plains, notice that they're not Mountains, stop applying, start applying again, etc.). Continuous effects can't create loops like that. They get one chance to do their thing or not.
You don't retroactively look at the "as long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature" clause after that.

611.3b seems to imply that the clause in the ability is invalid. It wants to make it have a duration like 611.2b which is specifically contrary to the rules so unless we're invoking the Golden Rule here, it doesn't work.



Rule 611.2b doesn't apply here because the continuous effect isn't generated by the resolution of a spell or ability. Animate Artifact has a static ability, like Sword of the Paruns or Bant Sureblade.
Rules Advisor
Rule 611.2b doesn't apply here because the continuous effect isn't generated by the resolution of a spell or ability. Animate Artifact has a static ability, like Sword of the Paruns or Bant Sureblade.

yes, I know it doesn't

but 611.3b says that the continuous effect on Animate Artifact applies at all times that the permanent generating it is on the battlefield which is contrary to the as long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature clause. That clause has a structure markedly reminiscent of the durations mentioned in 611.2b (even though that rule isn't specifically applicable)

@Adeyke: All mountains are plains is fine, there's no "duration" attached to it that says as long as the mountain isn't a plains

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The effect of Animate Artifact does apply at all times. It just only modifies the enchanted artifact's characteristics at the times when it's not already a creature.

Here's a question, though: If I enchant my Boros Keyrune with Animate Artifact and activate the Keyrune's ability, is it a 1/1 with double strike or a 3/3 with double strike?
Rules Advisor
The effect of Animate Artifact does apply at all times. It just only modifies the enchanted artifact's characteristics at the times when it's not already a creature.

Ok, I attach Animate Artifact to a Copper Myr.
What effect does that ability have?
If you say it has none, then how can it be applying?

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If I control Tempered Steel and no artifact creatures, what effect does its ability have? Is it applying?
Rules Advisor
The effect of Animate Artifact does apply at all times. It just only modifies the enchanted artifact's characteristics at the times when it's not already a creature.

Here's a question, though: If I enchant my Boros Keyrune with Animate Artifact and activate the Keyrune's ability, is it a 1/1 with double strike or a 3/3 with double strike?


It's a 1/1 with double strike, not because Animate Artifact does nothing, but because the Keyrune's effect has the most recent timestamp.

The effect of Animate Artifact does apply at all times. It just only modifies the enchanted artifact's characteristics at the times when it's not already a creature.

Ok, I attach Animate Artifact to a Copper Myr. 
What effect does that ability have?
If you say it has none, then how can it be applying?

I won't say it has no effect. Rather, I would say it has an effect that does nothing.


If I control Tempered Steel and no artifact creatures, what effect does its ability have? Is it applying?

Yes, it is applying, but it does nothing.

My reasoning here is that, despite the effects doing nothing, they still have a timestamp. Changing what the effect does will not reset it's timestamp, even if it comes from "doing nothing" to "doing something".

If I control Tempered Steel and no artifact creatures, what effect does its ability have? Is it applying?

If a tree falls, in a deserted forest with no one to hear it, does it make noise?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.                        -Albert Einstein

 

So, you keep on voting, and you keep expecting different results from those elections?

How long have you tried this, over and over?

Ain't it time you reached a different conclusion about this whole mascarade?

"As long as" doesn't indicate a duration (that's "for as long as"). It indicates a condition, equivalent to "if".

Animate Artifact has the effect that, if the artifact isn't a creature, it becomes a creature (and that if the artifact already is a creature, nothing happens). The condition is checked as the effect is applied in the layer system. It doesn't get a second chance to apply later and it doesn't get a second chance to not apply later.
The condition is checked as the effect is applied in the layer system.

that seems to be the only reasonable interpretation to make it work, but the rules don't say anything of the sort.

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We still haven't answered the most important question here: 
does Animate Artifact's effect keep affecting a no-more-artifact Planeswalker?

We all agree that if the answer is YES, the Aura (and equipment) remains attached.
Let me remind you that Animate Artifact says «As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature».

Rule 303.4b (inconclusively) appears to say YES:
303.4b The object or player an Aura is attached to is called enchanted. The Aura is attached to, or “enchants,” that object or player.

While Kitachewsky (inconclusively) appears to say NO:
Animate Dead's ability refers to "enchanted creature", so it will work
only if Animate Dead is attached to a creature, which is not the case
here. Creatures exist only on the battlefield, elsewhere they are
creature cards.

Daniel Kitachewsky
L3, Paris, France
MTGRules-L Netrep




So, what will the final verdict be?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.                        -Albert Einstein

 

So, you keep on voting, and you keep expecting different results from those elections?

How long have you tried this, over and over?

Ain't it time you reached a different conclusion about this whole mascarade?

We still haven't answered the most important question here: 
does Animate Artifact's effect keep affecting a no-more-artifact Planeswalker?

We all agree that if the answer is YES, the Aura (and equipment) remains attached.
Let me remind you that Animate Artifact says «As long as enchanted artifact isn't a creature».

Rule 303.4b (inconclusively) appears to say YES:
303.4b The object or player an Aura is attached to is called enchanted. The Aura is attached to, or “enchants,” that object or player.


I would argue that this doesn't indicate yes.  The question isn't whether the planeswalker is enchanted, it's whether it's the enchanted creature.  As far as I can tell, nothing in the rules indicates that creature is meant anything less than literally, so I would argue that the enchanted creature doesn't exist.  Whilst it's not conclusive, the rules for equipment suggest that the equipped creature must be a creature. 

301.5a. The creature an Equipment is attached to is called the "equipped creature." The Equipment is attached to, or "equips," that creature.

I would argue that this doesn't indicate yes.  The question isn't whether the planeswalker is enchanted, it's whether it's the enchanted creature.  As far as I can tell, nothing in the rules indicates that creature is meant anything less than literally, so I would argue that the enchanted creature doesn't exist.  Whilst it's not conclusive, the rules for equipment suggest that the equipped creature must be a creature.

There is no equipment involved in this question.

The issue is whether the Animate Artifact that legally enchanted the Planeswaler Artifact still recognises that opjet it is attached to as the "enchanted artifact" when the effect that turned the Planeswalker into an artifact in the first place wears off.

Let me ask a question. What makes an Aura lose its attachment to the object it was enchanting? The answer is State-Based Actions.

While you are building up the picture of what the gamnestate looks like, you don't apply SBAs between each layer, or anythign like that.. SBAs only check a gamestate, and the gamestate can only be determined after all the effects are applied. This includes the AA's static ability, which tests to see if the object it is attached to is a creature, and if it is not makes it an artifact creature.

So by the time SBAs check to see if the Animate Artifact should come unattached, the answer is "no."
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This includes the AA's static ability, which tests to see if the object it is attached to is a creature, and if it is not makes it an artifact creature.
So by the time SBAs check to see if the Animate Artifact should come unattached, the answer is "no."

You seem to miss the point. It has already been established that SBA won't remove the enchantment while we are building the gamestate picture.

Again, the real question is «Since Animate Artifact talks about the enchanted artifact, can this ability affect anything which is not an artifact?» It doesn't say «enchanted object».
Kitachewsky apparently thinks not. But then, that is not totally conclusive, since he's been quoted about Animate Dead.


Take note, however, that I personnal agree with your conclusion... but I ain't no rule manager! 


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.                        -Albert Einstein

 

So, you keep on voting, and you keep expecting different results from those elections?

How long have you tried this, over and over?

Ain't it time you reached a different conclusion about this whole mascarade?


Would this be relevant?


201.5. If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as "this [something]" to identify an object, where [something] is a characteristic, it is referring to that particular object, even if it isn't the appropriate characteristic at the time.
Example: An ability reads "Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Destroy that creature at the beginning of the next end step." The ability will destroy the object it gave +2/+2 to even if that object isn't a creature at the beginning of the next end step.

Level 1 Judge

I think, yes. It's actually the rule I was looking for for hours. A bit misplaced, I wouldn't expect it to be found under "201. Name".

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Once again aced the Rules Advisor test (Feb 2015). (I still make mistakes now and then, but who doesn't.)

 

"Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

But that's about "this artifact", not "enchanted artifact".
Kitachewsky apparently thinks not. But then, that is not totally conclusive, since he's been quoted about Animate Dead.

I felt the thread participants had lost sight of the fundamental issue, which is that nothing in Magic says that anything happens or stops happening until a rule or effect says it does. The thing is, no rule or effect says that the AA stops applying just because it's no longer an artifact. For those who say the effect stops appklying, what rule says so?

As for Animate Dead, that's an invalid comparison. The ruling is based on 609.2.
Effects apply only to permanents unless the instruction’s text states otherwise or they clearly can apply only to objects in one or more other zones.

That quite clearly prevents AD's -1/-0 from applying to a creature card in a graveyard, and equally clearly does not address this situation at all.

ETA

But that's about "this artifact", not "enchanted artifact".

The rule says 'a phrase such as "this [something]"'. Tne words "such as" indicate that it is not meant to be restricted to abilities worded "this [something], but have wider application.
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But that's about "this artifact", not "enchanted artifact".


"this [something]" is just an example. The rule's wording already implies, that it is not the only possible phrase.

201.5. If an ability of an object uses a phrase such as "this [something]" to identify an object, where [something] is a characteristic ...[...]

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Once again aced the Rules Advisor test (Feb 2015). (I still make mistakes now and then, but who doesn't.)

 

"Simple questions" usually need rather complex answers, while complex questions often come down to no more than a simple "yes" or "no".

 

We already have an official answer saying that, because Animate Dead says "enchanted creature", it only works if it's attached to a creature. Not a permanent; just a creature. So, unless Natedogg steps in and says otherwise, the same happens to Animate Artifact and Silverskin Armor.
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