3.5 NPC treasure and The Shackled City

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1) The half-dragon fighter in the Monster Manual is listed with both "Treasure: Standard" and "Possessions: +1 full plate, masterwork two-bladed sword, 2 javelins." Does that mean that I should give it both a +1 full plate, a masterwork two-bladed sword, two javelins AND roll on table 3-5: Treasure in the DMG (I always use the Random Treasure method in the DMG)?

2) I bought the campaign book The Shackled City some time ago, but I haven't started reading it until now. I may be confusing it with something else, but I think there was some sort of roster following with the book. Is this right? If it is, I have lost it.
    In the book, a dungeon roster is mentioned. Is this it? Areas and rooms are also described as area J1, J2, J3 and so on, and I can't really find out what's where (if that makes any sense). For example, there's a map of Jzadirune followed by descriptions of area J1-63, but I don't know which places on the map equals which area J[number]. Can anybody help?
The HD fighter gets standard treasure in terms of gold & gems. Its items are what is listed. Of course, if you want to you can use some of that to better equip it for the battle. Single-use items are a great way to control what the PCs get.
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I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
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I suspect the "standard" part is what treasure the "base creature" should have and the added equipment could be a bonus for the higher CR.  I would point out that for a give CR the "standard treasure" value should be LESS THAN the NPC equipment value for that same creature.  What you are seeing may be some kind of compromise.  I also want to point out that even if you do "random treasure" you should roll it BEFORE the encounter and if anything the creature can use comes up then you make sure it uses it; for example if you "rolled" a +3 weapon that the creature could use then why would it continue to use it's mundane/masterwork item?

Sorry I can't be any help with your Shackled City book.  I've seen the adventures as they first appeared in the pages of Dragon Magazine but am not familiar with the hardcover version.
 
A 6th-level encounter (the half-dragon fighter is CR 6) should have 2000 gp, and the half-dragon fighter's possessions add up for a total 2902 gp. I'll probably just leave it at those items if my party encounters it.
Thanks for answering. 
A 6th-level NPC should have 5,600 gp worth of equipment.  If the standard CR 6 treasure is about 2000 gp and that CR 6 half-dragon has 2900 gp of possessions listed it is actually still 700 gp behind what it should be.
 
A 6th-level encounter (the half-dragon fighter is CR 6) should have 2000 gp, and the half-dragon fighter's possessions add up for a total 2902 gp. I'll probably just leave it at those items if my party encounters it.
Thanks for answering. 

OK the example of the MM are a half dragon humman fighter level 4, her items are:
+1 full plate (2650 Gps)
MW Two Blade Sword (700 Gps)

The total are 3350 Gps, now the rules of NPC say that a NPC of Level 4 have in gear 3300 Gps in gear and the treasure of an NPC level 7 have in gear 7200 gps(this NPC is level 7) now her CR is 6 and the standard treasure for a CR 6 are 2000 Gps then, 3350 are so much to be a bonus treasure of a CR 6 monster, 3350+2000 are too low for the the treasure of a Character level 7.

If we going to the rules of improved monster the Template dont give any extra Treasure to the creature, then he are a Level 4 NPC and her gear value should be 3300 gps and the gear of the example are 3350 Gps then is the more reasonable use this item as the treasure and don't give any random bonus.

Now about the book, i dont have it sorry .
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@Steven, you're right, I forgot that NPCs use another table for gear.

@Oma, I'm not sure I understand all you're saying, but I'll just use the possessions listed in the Monster Manual then. 
@Steven, you're right, I forgot that NPCs use another table for gear.

@Oma, I'm not sure I understand all you're saying, but I'll just use the possessions listed in the Monster Manual then. 

yes is better because not rules in the Creating an NPC or in the Rules of Improved Monster with a Template say that the base treasure are Improved then this creature use the standard NPC gear Value of a Lv 4 and her current equipment cover this value.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
@Steven, you're right, I forgot that NPCs use another table for gear.

@Oma, I'm not sure I understand all you're saying, but I'll just use the possessions listed in the Monster Manual then. 

Most of the rest of us have a hard time figuring out what Oma is trying to say as well.

He does seem to be missing the BIG distinction between a PC style character (where a half-dragon fighter 4 is considered 7th-level) and an NPC.  As a random NPC a half-dragon fighter 4 is NEVER viewed as a "7th-level" anything.  If it becomes part of the PC group and it's "effective character level" becomes important then it is considered 7th-level but as something the group encounters it is just a CR 6.

The NPC gear table assume you have some "level" in mind and if you are picking some powerful creature type as a base you may lower the creature's actual level but it's effective level remains the same.  You'd note that the book says you reduce the creature's level by the CR it is listed with or gained. 
@Steven, you're right, I forgot that NPCs use another table for gear.

@Oma, I'm not sure I understand all you're saying, but I'll just use the possessions listed in the Monster Manual then. 

Most of the rest of us have a hard time figuring out what Oma is trying to say as well.

He does seem to be missing the BIG distinction between a PC style character (where a half-dragon fighter 4 is considered 7th-level) and an NPC.  As a random NPC a half-dragon fighter 4 is NEVER viewed as a "7th-level" anything.  If it becomes part of the PC group and it's "effective character level" becomes important then it is considered 7th-level but as something the group encounters it is just a CR 6.

The NPC gear table assume you have some "level" in mind and if you are picking some powerful creature type as a base you may lower the creature's actual level but it's effective level remains the same.  You'd note that the book says you reduce the creature's level by the CR it is listed with or gained. 

well you are missed too that when you make an NPC you make it with the standard rules not based in her CR, now for put the template to a NPC you need call for the improved monster rule that never talk about the treasure, then you have a Fighter Lv 4 first with the gear of a level 4 NPC character and then you put the template.

as example a warrior level 20 have gear as character level 20 not as 19 because her level are 20 despite that her CR is 19
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
well you are missed too that when you make an NPC you make it with the standard rules not based in her CR, now for put the template to a NPC you need call for the improved monster rule that never talk about the treasure, then you have a Fighter Lv 4 first with the gear of a level 4 NPC character and then you put the template.

as example a warrior level 20 have gear as character level 20 not as 19 because her level are 20 despite that her CR is 19




Just like Lord of Dragonborns has mentioned before it is not easy to figure out what you are saying.  This is true a lot of the time and especially when you try dealing with the more complex issues.

If you are using the section in the DMG for NPC statistics (starting on pg 110 and going thru 127) you'd be picking a level (CR in this case) for what you need and in that last column of talbes 4-9 to 4-11 it tells you what kind of adjustments you make to account for kind.  If you want a CR 4 half-dragon then you'd be looking a a level 2 character with the +2 CR adjustment for half-dragon coming in to determine gear value.

With the half-dragon fighter 4 it just so happens it is listed with the about gear a 4th-level NPC would have and then if you add a standard CR 6 treasure to it you end up with something close to the 6th-level NPC gear value.  Instead of your template let's look at the Ogre and its Barbarian 4 version.

Ogre: CR 3, 900gp+mundane equipment for treasure value at EL 3 (DMG pg51)

Ogre Barbarian 4:  CR7, 2600 gp standard EL 7 award plus 5475 gp in listed gear totalling 8075 gp.

Looking at the Ogre Barbarian's treasure value we'll see the list equipment is about what a 6th-level NPC would have which matches up with a 6th-level Barbarian adjusted two levels down as stated for being an Ogre (table 4-11) and then throwing in a standard EL 7 treasure pushes the total up to an area between what a 7th and 8th-level NPC would get.  We should keep in mind that the Ogre's magic weapon and armor are all but useless to most medium sized PC and will cut the real award as the almost must be sold.

Now Oma, a big problem with your ealier statement was when you bring "level 7" into the discussion because it has NOTHING to do with an NPC Half-Dragon Fighter 4.
 

yes the "level 7" show you how is first the character and then the template, you make first the character NPC level 4 and then you put the template.

Now a template is diferent to a base race, because if you use a template you call for the Improved Monster Rule, for use a Base Race you don't need nothing.

Now this creature have an average treasure of more that 8000 Gps that break the treasure of an NPC CR 7 Standard (as you saying CR instead of level), now the rules of NPCs is that you use the NPC level (non well described but refered as level), in this case this NPC is level 10 and this don't match too, now the rules of improved monster to added a class to a monster never talk about the treasure then in this case don't exist a strict rule but the book say that the DM need to balance the gear in this cases.




Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
A NPC Half-dragon fighter 4 is NEVER a "level 7" anything.  As a cohort it may be level 7 but that is because cohorts are essentially PC type characters.
A NPC Half-dragon fighter 4 is NEVER a "level 7" anything.  As a cohort it may be level 7 but that is because cohorts are essentially PC type characters.

an NPC is a character like any other PC and are made under the same basic rules.

an Half Dragon Fighter 4 is an character level 4 first and then you put the template now if you use her level as 4 this match if you use it as 6 (CR) or 7 (ECLEVEL) not.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
A NPC Half-dragon fighter 4 is NEVER a "level 7" anything.  As a cohort it may be level 7 but that is because cohorts are essentially PC type characters.

an NPC is a character like any other PC and are made under the same basic rules.

an Half Dragon Fighter 4 is an character level 4 first and then you put the template now if you use her level as 4 this match if you use it as 6 (CR) or 7 (ECLEVEL) not.



Oma I think you're missing the general description here. Say for example that you are using the half dragon right out of the monster manual for a random encounter. In this case the half dragon would simply be a pre-generated monster, and would have loot as standerd for it's entry, in this case it's gear. Now, if instead you wanted to create a half dragon npc of a more specific design, lets say a half red dragon sorcerer, you break the design process down to determining what CR you need the creature to be. We'll say that your putting him against a group of level 4, so you make him a 4th level sorcerer, with a human as a base race, and with the CR adjustment of the half dragon template raises it's CR to 6, making it a very difficult encounter. The DM's guid says that the average treasure from a level 6 encounter should be 2,000 gp. If you look at a half dragon with 4 HD, it's ECL is a total of 7. The average gear for a level 7 NPC is 7,200 gp. That would mean that the estimated treasure for the encounters CR is less than a third of what the half dragon sorcerer would have from NPC gear. Even assuming that you gave more treasure for the difficulty level of the encounter, more than tripling it is a little absurd, and even if you consider that the players can sell the gear for half, that's still 1,600 gp over the encounters expected treasure net.
Lashius, I'm not completely clear on what you are saying and if I don't get it then expecting someone else to "get it" may be reaching.  I think I see you saying there are three ways of looking at it:

For a half-dragon fighter 4 you have:
Random CR 6:  Use MM entry with standard treasure.  Here listed possession boost net wealth to something close the the next.

Custom build CR 6 NPC:  Build how you like and give 5,600 gp worth of gear.

As a PC the Half-Dragon Fighter 4 counts as a 7th-level character.  It should have gear valued at 19,000 gp.

Although they have a lot of things in common PCs and NPCs are two entirely different things when it comes to "wealth".  In the realm of PCs a half-dragon fighter 4 is considered 7th-level but in the world of NPCs it is considered CR 6.
Lashius, I'm not completely clear on what you are saying and if I don't get it then expecting someone else to "get it" may be reaching.  I think I see you saying there are three ways of looking at it:

For a half-dragon fighter 4 you have:
Random CR 6:  Use MM entry with standard treasure.  Here listed possession boost net wealth to something close the the next.

Custom build CR 6 NPC:  Build how you like and give 5,600 gp worth of gear.

As a PC the Half-Dragon Fighter 4 counts as a 7th-level character.  It should have gear valued at 19,000 gp.

Although they have a lot of things in common PCs and NPCs are two entirely different things when it comes to "wealth".  In the realm of PCs a half-dragon fighter 4 is considered 7th-level but in the world of NPCs it is considered CR 6.



Apparently the site ate part of my post which elaborated a bit more. >.<

Oh well, in lue of trying to remember everything I wrote, I'll paraphrase my point. If you build encounters with level adjustment templates and equip them with NPC wealth based on their ECL the average encounter wealth doesn't scale accordingly even when you account for items such as armor and weapons only selling for half their market price. The example that I gave shows that a ECL 7 half dragon would be equipped with 7,200 gp of wealth, and if all of that wealth was in items such as armor and weaponry it's sell value would come out to 3,600 gp which is 1,600 gp over the average estimated wealth of a CR 6 encounter.

This would indicate that when designing such encounters that you should generally equip an opponent with items/gear/treasure roughly starting at the average encounters estimated wealth, otherwise things get a little ridiculous (however a little wiggle room is always acceptable as long as you don't go overboard). In certain cases it can be considered alright, like for a reoccurring villain since he'll probably deplete more resources than the random owlbear attack (and conversely should give them a bit mroe of a payoff), or if you consider lair traps to fall under the designation of NPC wealth, but by and large it's better to base the monsters items on CR and not ECL.

Clearer Steven0? If not I think I should try again later, as I'm in the middle of one of my infamous insomnia swings and am trying to be informative on two hours of rest. Laughing
My point is simply that ECL doesn't factor into to the non-PC of an encounter at all.  When you build encounters it doesn't matter what the ECL of a creature you are using is.  Some people have a hard time realizing how different CR and ECL are even if they happen to be the same thing part of the time.

I think I'm seeing your point.  You're just saying that if you equiped the half-dragon as a 7th-level NPC and then sold all its stuff for the standard half price you'd still end up with more gold then the standard EL 6 treatures.  A LOT more gold.

Now if a DM wants to "over equip" an NPC the normal way of doing so is by combining an adventure's treasure total and putting most of it in the hands of the boss.  Instead of an EL 6 awarding 2000 gp worth of stuff it may only produced 1000 gp of stuff with that extra 1000 gp going into a bank to use to equip the boss.
it are if you are using an NPC because you user her current level to get her gear never is described that you use her CR, now about the Standard Half Dragon Example, the treasure entry never say, standard plus +1 Full Plate, MW DualBlade then the monster are user her standard treasure as items.

Please StevenO quote the rule in the DMG that say that you use the CR instead of the level of the NPC to get the gear value.

You are missing how make Monsters.

As described in the monster manual and DMG in this case you first need make an NPC fighter level 4, when you done and this includes her gear you do the Improved Monster rule to put the template on the character, then in this rule never is described an increment in the standard treasure of the creature.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
As described in the monster manual and DMG in this case you first need make an NPC fighter level 4, when you done and this includes her gear you do the Improved Monster rule to put the template on the character, then in this rule never is described an increment in the standard treasure of the creature.


I don't understand a word of this Explanation please?
As described in the monster manual and DMG in this case you first need make an NPC fighter level 4, when you done and this includes her gear you do the Improved Monster rule to put the template on the character, then in this rule never is described an increment in the standard treasure of the creature.


I don't understand a word of this Explanation please?

to apply the improved monster rule (put a template in a creature) you need first have a Base Creature.

In the example of the Monster Manual for the Half Dragon the Base Creature is a NPC Fighter Level 4 with Gear as NPC level 4 and then you can put the template to this creature calling the Improved Monster rule and this rule never talk about improved the treasure of the creature but you as DM can change it if you think that the NPC need it (described in the NPC creation)

Now if you make a NPC and use the Gear Value you dont give Random Treasure for CR, the treasure are cover in her Gear Value.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
..
Please StevenO quote the rule in the DMG that say that you use the CR instead of the level of the NPC to get the gear value.
...


Read the section in the DMG on NPC statistics starting on page 110 and ending on pg 127 which is also where you will find the NPC gear value table.

I'll point out the line "To randomly generate an NPC's class, level, and race or kind of monster, start with the NPC's level (or Challenge Rating, which is usually the same thing).  Then determine the following information randomly."  This line establishes using CR when you are looking at NPC level.

Now I've shown you were NPC's level is equated to Challenge Rating so if you could show me where "effective character level" has anything to do with creating, much less equiping, an NPC that would be great.

In the MM all "treasure" entries are based on the ceature's CR and a half-dragon fighter 4 is a CR 6 creature.  That it is a Fighter 4 has no direct connection. 
As described in the monster manual and DMG in this case you first need make an NPC fighter level 4, when you done and this includes her gear you do the Improved Monster rule to put the template on the character, then in this rule never is described an increment in the standard treasure of the creature.


I don't understand a word of this Explanation please?

That's not surprising.  A reason you do not understand it is because it is incorrect.

If you are using the DMG you first determine what CR you want and that will set the "gear value" and then once you determine you want a half-dragon you would see you only get four class levels to use for that CR 6.

The MM says even less and basically tells you how the half-dragon will alter a CR and because treasure is based on CR it will then alter the treasure award.  The sample half-dragon may be a Fighter 4 but to keep treasure "simple" it gives it equipment which combines with a standard award to give as much "treasure" as a 6th-level NPC would provide.
..
Please StevenO quote the rule in the DMG that say that you use the CR instead of the level of the NPC to get the gear value.
...


Read the section in the DMG on NPC statistics starting on page 110 and ending on pg 127 which is also where you will find the NPC gear value table.

I'll point out the line "To randomly generate an NPC's class, level, and race or kind of monster, start with the NPC's level (or Challenge Rating, which is usually the same thing).  Then determine the following information randomly."  This line establishes using CR when you are looking at NPC level.

Now I've shown you were NPC's level is equated to Challenge Rating so if you could show me where "effective character level" has anything to do with creating, much less equiping, an NPC that would be great.

In the MM all "treasure" entries are based on the ceature's CR and a half-dragon fighter 4 is a CR 6 creature.  That it is a Fighter 4 has no direct connection. 

Sorry but this are for RANDOM CLASS, LEVEL and RACE not treasure.

and an NPC level with BASE PC Class usually have a CR equal to her unless you use a template like this case.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
As described in the monster manual and DMG in this case you first need make an NPC fighter level 4, when you done and this includes her gear you do the Improved Monster rule to put the template on the character, then in this rule never is described an increment in the standard treasure of the creature.


I don't understand a word of this Explanation please?

That's not surprising.  A reason you do not understand it is because it is incorrect.

If you are using the DMG you first determine what CR you want and that will set the "gear value" and then once you determine you want a half-dragon you would see you only get four class levels to use for that CR 6.

The MM says even less and basically tells you how the half-dragon will alter a CR and because treasure is based on CR it will then alter the treasure award.  The sample half-dragon may be a Fighter 4 but to keep treasure "simple" it gives it equipment which combines with a standard award to give as much "treasure" as a 6th-level NPC would provide.

you are totally wrong to make an NPC as described in the same part that you quote you first take the Level of the NPC and then you can Improve it with the Improved Monster Rule (the Half Dragon Come in the same random generation of NPCs).

check the NPC chapter you first make the NPC and then you change the stats or other based in the race or extras of the NPC.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, do you even understand the differences between CR, CR adjustments, LA, "level", HD, and ECL?  There certainly are times when CR, "level", HD, and ECL are all the same value but there are also times they are all different.
 
Oma, do you even understand the differences between CR, CR adjustments, LA, "level", HD, and ECL?  There certainly are times when CR, "level", HD, and ECL are all the same value but there are also times they are all different.
 

yes, for it the book say that usually are the same, when you make an standard NPC her ECL, CR, LEVEL and HD are the same, if you make a creature with a template not.

as described you take
1- Level.
2- Alignment.
3- Class.
4- Race or Kind.

Now if the creature result too powerful you need reduce her current class level more that the normal.

Now the Half dragon have -2 but the Werebear have -2 too  when the half dragon have +3 ecl and +2 Cr and the werebear have +9 ECL and CR +4

then this modification not are based in the CR as you are saying.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.