Rule 614 (Yixlid Jailer and an ETB tapped creature)

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i'm having trouble understanding the following example in the comp rules:

===
614. Replacement Effects


614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.


Example: Yixlid Jailer says “Cards in graveyards have no abilities.” Scarwood Treefolk says “Scarwood Treefolk enters the battlefield tapped.” A Scarwood Treefolk that’s put onto the battlefield from a graveyard enters the battlefield tapped.
===


i'm terribly confused about this.

here's a relevant rule:
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112.6g. An object’s ability that modifies how that particular object enters the battlefield functions as that object is entering the battlefield. See rule 614.12.
===



so evidently (from the example) Scarwood Treefolk's ability functions, even though Scarwood Treefolk doesn't have the ability at the time its put form the graveyard to the battlefield. but this doesn't make sense to me.

i know that the rule says "To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield", but in my understanding of things, this rule is irrelevant:
- at the time that Scarwood Treefolk is about to be put onto the battlefield from the graveyard, Scarwood Treefolk has no abilities, so there is no replacement effect generated to begin with.
- this rule ("To determine how and whether these replacement effects apply, ...") is only saying that /if/ a replacement effect exists, and you want to know if it will apply, then here's the rule to know if it applies or not. but if no replacement effect exists to begin with (because Scarwood Treefolk has no abilities), then this rule is irrelevant.



what am i getting wrong here?

at the time that Scarwood Treefolk is about to be put onto the battlefield from the graveyard, Scarwood Treefolk has no abilities, so there is no replacement effect generated to begin with.



You have to look at the card as it would exist on the battlefield.  When Treefolk is on the battelfield, it has the ability, so the ability applies.
 
rudolf, i'm afraid that wasn't helpful to me. i already read that rule, but what i'm saying is that rule makes no sense to me. that's what i need addressing.


let me put it another way.
the following is how i /thought/ the rules work, and it seems to CONSISTANTLY help me get to the right answer for tricky rules situations; but for this one example, it is breaking down.

my (evidently incorrect) model:

1) the game progresses from discrete game state to game state, with an event changing it from game state to game state. i like to think of it as: Game State A --event--> Game State B
2) to see if anything done in the event is going to get replaced, you have to look at Game State A to see what static abilities are generating continuous effects that are replacement effects, and what resolved spells/abilities generated continuous effects that are replacement effects.

so with this model, let's call Game State A as "Yixlid Jailer and Scarwood Treefolk are in my graveyard", and the event is "Put Scarwood Treefolk onto the battlefield". to determine what Game State A is, apply all continous effects; in the end, Game State A has Scarwood Treefolk have no abilities.

to see what replacement effects there are, look at what static abilities are currently "on"/functioning (and what spells/abilities that resolved). looking at this, there is no static ability from Scarwood Treefolk, therefore no replacement effect to modify the event.




i can't get my head around the idea that you "try out" the event of putting Scarwood Treefolk onto the battlefield first, to see what replacement effect would apply. i expected that any replacement effects that are going to apply to the event will be generated in Game State A .. not .. from the .. future to be .. retoactively applied .. or .. something.



can anyone see my confusion here?
The battlefield is a special case for how abilities function because most of Magic happens there. Anything that looks at permanents entering the battlefield look at them as they would exist on the battlefield (not before), and anything that looks at permanents leaving the battlefield look at them as they existed right before they left.

I see your confusion, but the rules exist this way to allow many of Magic's intended mechanics to work properly.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Shard_Fenix, could you expand on how this weird rule helps some "intended mechanics to work properly"? if i see that there is a good /point/ to this rule, maybe it'll help my brain accept it / process it better.




also, i didn't really understand what you meant here:
===
Anything that looks at permanents entering the battlefield look at them as they would exist on the battlefield (not before), and anything that looks at permanents leaving the battlefield look at them as they existed right before they left.
===
could you elaborate on this for me?




finally, could you comment on the following rule, becuase it seems to support my own model, and contradict the rule that i'm having so much trouble wrapping my head around:
==
614.4.
Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs—they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.
===

in my model, it's also true that "Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs".

so somehow.. a replacement effect exists in Game State A, not because of any static ability or resolved spell/ability generating a replacement effect in Game State A, but instead a replacement effect exists in Game State A because the game takes a peek into what the event is doing and sees that the event is putting Scarwood Treefolk on the battlefield?

i honestly still can't seem to process this..
The ability doesn't work on the graveyard. It only works as the permanent enters the battlefield. So you have to check its characteristics as it enters the battlefield.

Your model is correct most of the time, but we can't apply it here. You can't look at the game state prior to the event because the replacement effect is affecting a permanent and the permanent only exists on the battlefield.

If that doesn't convince you, let's suppose the permanent entering the battlefield is a token. How do we check its characteristics before the event? Clearly we can't.
This is what you want to look at:

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

Replacement effects have to exist before the event happens, but they have to exist from the appropriate place.

Suppose you had Darkest Hour in play and another enchantment reading "Black creatures enter the battlefield tapped." You would then expect all creatures to enter the battlefield tapped, right? This is an intended interaction of card effects covered by the above rule. Without the above rule, the game would look at the creature in its previous zone (likely the stack) and there would be no interaction at all.

Rules Advisor

Please autocard: [c]Shard Phoenix[/c] = Shard Phoenix.

Suppose you had Darkest Hour in play and another enchantment reading "Black creatures enter the battlefield tapped." You would then expect all creatures to enter the battlefield tapped, right? This is an intended interaction of card effects covered by the above rule. Without the above rule, the game would look at the creature in its previous zone (likely the stack) and there would be no interaction at all.

That's not correct; the creatures will enter untapped unless they were genuinely black. As the rule you just quoted says:

taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

Nylon, i .. think you're starting to help me process this. let me put what you said into my own words, and you tell me if i got it wrong or not.

(ie below, i'm trying understand actual rule 614.12, with the help of what you just told me)



so, when an event happens, in MANY cases the replacement effects that might alter that event are found by looking for replacement effects generated in the game state just before the event (ie "Game State A").

HOWEVER, *some* replacement effects work differently, but they only need to be considered for an event has to do with a permanent entering the battlefield.



so, for most events, my old model works.
but for events having to do with a permanent entering the battlefield, you must consider this special case. in this special case, a replacement effect might apply to the event (ie it might modify how the permanent enters the battlefield), where the replacement effect is not generated by "Game State A", but instead by a continuous effect generated by that permanent's own static abilities if it /were/ on the battlefield.
` to find out if there are these "special" replacement effects that might apply, pretend that permanent is on the battlefield, and see if it generates a replacement effect that has to do with how it enters the battlefield. take into account:
` - any other replacement effects (ie from "Game State A") that already is modifying how the permanent is entering the battlefield,
` - any continuous effect that changed the characteristics of that permanent spell when it was on the stack (if you're dealing with a permanent entering the battlefield by a permanent spell resolving).



if what i wrote above is correct, i am mostly okay with this rule, now.

but: i still havent' incorporated the bolded sentence from rule 614.12:
===
Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent [....]. They may also come from other sources.
===

this whole rule only dealt with talking about the replacement effect coming from the permanent that is entering the battlefield (albeit possibly modified by other continuous effects). it didn't give me any idea how any "other sources" could generate a replacement effect that could apply here.




====
If that doesn't convince you, let's suppose the permanent entering the battlefield is a token. How do we check its characteristics before the event? Clearly we can't.
====

i'm not clear on what you're saying here. could you try to elaborate on it?

ie i'm not sure how tokens breaks my model; in my (old) model, a replacement effect modifying how a token enters the battlefield still works fine.
` eg: if my opponent had a Blind Obedience out, the Blind Obedience generates a replacement effect that modifies how my tokens enter the battlefield, and the ability generating this replacement effect is clearly generated in "Game State A" (ie the game state just prior to the event that puts tokens onto the battlefiled under my control).
i'm not clear on what you're saying here. could you try to elaborate on it?

ie i'm not sure how tokens breaks my model; in my (old) model, a replacement effect modifying how a token enters the battlefield still works fine.
` eg: if my opponent had a Blind Obedience out, the Blind Obedience generates a replacement effect that modifies how my tokens enter the battlefield, and the ability generating this replacement effect is clearly generated in "Game State A" (ie the game state just prior to the event that puts tokens onto the battlefiled under my control).

There are two different checks mixed here. Yes, we use your old model to check the existence of the ability from Blind Obediece. But we also use rule 614.12 to check the characteristics of the token as it enters the battlefield. We need to know if the token is a creature or an artifact, and we can't check the prior game state because the token (permanent) didn't exist yet.

To determine the existence and the functionality of the ability we will need to perform one of this checks (see also rule 112.6 and 112.6g):

1. If an ability of a permanent generates a replacement effect that modifies how that permanent enters the battlefield (Scarwood Treefolk), check the existence of that ability by looking at rule 614.12.

2. If an ability of any source generates a replacement effect that modifies how other permanents enter the battlefield (Blind Obedience), check the existence of that ability by looking at the game state prior to the event.

In #1, the permanent entering the battlefield is the same permanent that creates the replacement effect. In #2, they are different objects.


And usually we will need to perform another check. To determine how the replacement effects apply, sometimes we need to check the game state. There are two ways to look at it.

A. If a replacement effect needs to know the characteristics of a permanent that is entering the battlefield, check them as told by rule 614.12 (Blind Obedience again; also Bramblewood paragon needs to know if the permanent is a warrior).

B. If a replacement effect needs to know any other kind of info that's unrelated to the permanent entering the battlefield, don't look at rule 614.12; just check the game state prior to the event. For example, Glacial Fortress asks if you control a plains or an island; and Stag Beetle needs to count the number of creatures on the battlefield.



so with this model, let's call Game State A as "Yixlid Jailer and Scarwood Treefolk are in my graveyard", and the event is "Put Scarwood Treefolk onto the battlefield". to determine what Game State A is, apply all continous effects; in the end, Game State A has Scarwood Treefolk have no abilities.

btw, Yixlid Jailer itself must be on the Field for its ability to work...

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

so with this model, let's call Game State A as "Yixlid Jailer and Scarwood Treefolk are in my graveyard", and the event is "Put Scarwood Treefolk onto the battlefield". to determine what Game State A is, apply all continous effects; in the end, Game State A has Scarwood Treefolk have no abilities.

btw, Yixlid Jailer itself must be on the Field for its ability to work...



oh... oops. right :-)

@Nylon: your response has given me a lot to think about. i look forward to later on telling you what i'm wondering about, but i have to collect my thoughts about it.
Actaully, the relevant line is
Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent

In other words, its ability on the battlefield (not the graveyard) causes its initial state on the battlefield to be tapped.