Concerns about magic bonus

OK this specifically applies to the Spell Save DCs end.

See a bonus to an attack that target's ac is one thing, weapon bonus or the other side of magic bonus, there are ways to boost that.

BUt um I don't see a lot of save bonuses and since a spell can target any ability score that means that unless you're god mode that spells become more irressistable faster than you can build up a resistance.

It seems like some more save boosters are called for. 
I think spells should be hard to resist, since you get so few of them.
Just a side note on saves working on all abilities. Its still only a theory that it could be like that in the future. Currently the saves look like this:
 STR: ZERO
 DEX: 15
 CON: 9
 INT: ZERO
 WIS: 14
 CHA: 4
 
 So we are still playing with Fort, Ref, Will saves. And have no idea how or if that will change. The 4 spells using Cha is a bit random.

I don't really mind that saves don't have a lot of bonuses. It's a bit like AC in that once you get it to around 18 you can't do a whole lot with it without magic items and I can't imagine we won't see magic items that give bonuses to saves just like everything else.


The only reason I'd be especially worried about this is 1) the system math is skewed and saves are either meaningless because they're too easy or too hard (which kinda depends on how important a saving throw is in the first place) or 2) magic items, should that be something you use, doesn't provide a level playing field (meaning the bonuses to save DCs aren't the same as the available bonuses to saves)

I think it's kinda cool, but I do feel that it's way too binary.  That is, a save or suck spell the ability bonus and magic bonus is critically important, making the spell much stronger with a high bonus.  While a utility spell, defensive spell, or pure damage spell often gains nothing at all from the magic or ability based bonus.  

Why?  

I think spell damage should also scale at least somewhat, and it would be nice if there was some way to even make the defensive or utility spells benefit from greater bonuses.
They need to work harder to remove the dex/wis bias and to have spells that have minor secondary effects if you save so that it isn't all or nothing.
Spell damage does scale, cantrips auto-scale and the damage spells scale from being prepped in higher slots.
They need to work harder to remove the dex/wis bias...


I don't know that I agree with this. They don't need to go out of their way to create spells that target STR, INT and CHA just to balance things out. They should do what makes sense. Not every ability score has to be 'balanced'. They aren't balanced in real life. The most intelligent person in the world could create a nuclear bomb and drop it on top of the strongest man in the world. The most charismatic person in the world could probably talk the most intelligent person in the world into doing his bidding. The wisest person would just stay out of it altogether.

The general lack of STR/INT/CHA saves is what led to the 3E-4E use of Fort/Ref/Will as the better of two scores. And while this solved a perceived problem, it did so in an inelegant way, and despite the fact that it probably wasn't really a problem to begin with. Not everything has to be balanced and symmetrical.
Just a side note on saves working on all abilities. Its still only a theory that it could be like that in the future. Currently the saves look like this:
 STR: ZERO
 DEX: 15
 CON: 9
 INT: ZERO
 WIS: 14
 CHA: 4
 
 So we are still playing with Fort, Ref, Will saves. And have no idea how or if that will change. The 4 spells using Cha is a bit random.



Some of those which currently target Will ought to target Charisma. 


But yes - we really are looking at 'saves which you resist through your internal fortitude" - Con Saves; "saves which you use your reflexes to avoid" - Dex Saves and 'saves which you resist through your will" - Wisdom and Charisma saves.


I'm not sure what an Intelligence save would be.  Or a strength save.  


Carl
Spell damage does scale, cantrips auto-scale and the damage spells scale from being prepped in higher slots.



...

Save or suck spells scale from ability scores and magic bonus.

Defensive spells, utility spells, and several damage spells do not.

That is the problem.

Scaling from being cast in a different slot is actually false, the defensive spells and utility spells do not scale for being cast in a higher slot typically.

As far as cantrips, they are the singular exception that they get an attack bonus from the attribute and magic bonus.  However, they do not scale in damage based on attribute.

This is in contrast to the non-caster damage dealers, who scale from level (gaining martial dice, martial damage bonus) AND from attribute bonuses (bonus damage and attack from Dex or Str). 
They need to work harder to remove the dex/wis bias...


I don't know that I agree with this. They don't need to go out of their way to create spells that target STR, INT and CHA just to balance things out. They should do what makes sense. Not every ability score has to be 'balanced'. They aren't balanced in real life. The most intelligent person in the world could create a nuclear bomb and drop it on top of the strongest man in the world. The most charismatic person in the world could probably talk the most intelligent person in the world into doing his bidding. The wisest person would just stay out of it altogether.

The general lack of STR/INT/CHA saves is what led to the 3E-4E use of Fort/Ref/Will as the better of two scores. And while this solved a perceived problem, it did so in an inelegant way, and despite the fact that it probably wasn't really a problem to begin with. Not everything has to be balanced and symmetrical.



I'm not saying that they need to go out of their way to equalise all the saves but they could use more imagination when applying logic.  Force, polymorph, or petrification effects could be applied against strength saves, domination against Charisma, charms against Wisdom, poison and necrotic magic against Constitution, and confusion or feeblemind spells against intelligence.  It doesn't seem all that hard to fathom to me.  Mind you, I haven't looked at the saves in detail yet so this may be what they are doing.  If they're not, it will be very simple to house rule thankfully.

It does seem that magic using classes should gain some resistance as they increase in levels as well, whether through counterspelling class features, feats, or a simple +1 every 5 or 6 levels.  It seems a bit unfortunate that wizards' primary stat won't help them resist spells at all since no saves are applied against their prime stat.
Another thought on the control spells is to allow the target to take HP damage to resist them on a failed save. Maybe a smaller amount to make a second roll, or double the damage to make the save automatic. This could work for NPCs and PCs.

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I specified that spell damage does indeed scale, I never  said the utility or defensive spells scaled. I said Spell DAMAGE, that means spells that do damage, as in offensive, as in not utility or defense.

NObody's defenses seem to scale this edition, except fighter's parry. 
Just a side note on saves working on all abilities. Its still only a theory that it could be like that in the future. Currently the saves look like this:
 STR: ZERO
 DEX: 15
 CON: 9
 INT: ZERO
 WIS: 14
 CHA: 4
 
 So we are still playing with Fort, Ref, Will saves. And have no idea how or if that will change. The 4 spells using Cha is a bit random.



Some of those which currently target Will ought to target Charisma. 


But yes - we really are looking at 'saves which you resist through your internal fortitude" - Con Saves; "saves which you use your reflexes to avoid" - Dex Saves and 'saves which you resist through your will" - Wisdom and Charisma saves.


I'm not sure what an Intelligence save would be.  Or a strength save.  
Carl



I personally always thought that more forced movement spells could use Strength. I don't mean spells that force your mind into moving, but that freeze your muscles. Is hold person a muscle effect, or a mind effect?

Web is also one of those spells I could see using strength to not be affected by it. Any push pull effect should also be Strength.

for Int, it's more difficult. Maze, perhaps some illusion spells (Wait, blue dragons don't have smoke coming out of their nostrils, this isn't real), but I have a much harder time coming up with using int for saves than I do strength.

I really like it when saves are crazy meaningful but not used very often. Like you're actually trying to save your character.


This whole save or save or save or die thing Mearls was messing with is totally lame too. Secondary effects are way better.



As for more diversity, I'm pretty sure that will happen eventually as we play with it and come up with stuff. The game's got room to evolve there and it's hard to imagine that it won't.

OK this specifically applies to the Spell Save DCs end.

See a bonus to an attack that target's ac is one thing, weapon bonus or the other side of magic bonus, there are ways to boost that.

BUt um I don't see a lot of save bonuses and since a spell can target any ability score that means that unless you're god mode that spells become more irressistable faster than you can build up a resistance.

It seems like some more save boosters are called for. 

This is something that's been bothering me for awhile now.  The devs are trying to keep derived stats to a minumum, but unless they fundamentally change some things, they're either going to have to have separate saving throw values or a semi-broken spell system.

They don't need to go out of their way to create spells that target STR, INT and CHA just to balance things out.

You're right.  The devs shouldn't make spells that target Str, Int, and Cha just for balance.

They should make spells that target Str, Int, and Cha because it would make things more interesting.

"I want 'punch magic in the face' to be a maneuver." -- wrecan

OK this specifically applies to the Spell Save DCs end.

See a bonus to an attack that target's ac is one thing, weapon bonus or the other side of magic bonus, there are ways to boost that.

BUt um I don't see a lot of save bonuses and since a spell can target any ability score that means that unless you're god mode that spells become more irressistable faster than you can build up a resistance.

It seems like some more save boosters are called for. 



I think they should remove the bonus from save DCs. They could also solve this inequality by giving characters a saving throw bonus that improves with level, but I think that is just one more thing to have to keep track of and would be easy to forget. Since saving throws are just ability checks in this edition, I'd rather they just take out the magic bonus rather than add another layer of complexity to things.