Strongest Class?

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I'dlike to know your opinion about what the best class is.
There is no opinion involved. It's very simply in order PsiArtificer, Wizard, Artificer, Archivist, Cleric, StP Erudite, Druid. That is tier one, or T0 in the case of PsiArt.

Of course, that's assuming you mean strongest. Best is entirely up for debate, and is entirely opinion.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Alot would do with playe style. I've seen too many debates over Wizard or Sorceror, with power vs utility, flexibility vs specialization. But it really comes down to the person running the character and what their play style is.
This has been done to death.
www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658...
The five non-variant classes EA mentioned are even known as the Big Five. It's that well-known.


(EDIT) That's talking about power and overall utility, as that thread makes clear. If you're talking about design the list is different. I would argue that warblade, swordsage,  factotum or psychic warrior deserves that honour (in rough rank-order).

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Yes, those class are certainly amongst the strongest in general terms, though the difference is far more evident at high levels than at low levels, and exact circumstances obviously make a difference.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Alot would do with playe style. I've seen too many debates over Wizard or Sorceror, with power vs utility, flexibility vs specialization. But it really comes down to the person running the character and what their play style is.

No, it doesn't. A sorcerer is entirely, completely, strictly objectively inferior to a wizard on any task. Play style is totally irrelevent. 
This has been done to death. www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658... The five non-variant classes EA mentioned are even known as the Big Five. It's that well-known.

I should have included a regular Erudite in there. It's right around there with the druid in power level.
exact circumstances obviously make a difference.

No. There is no situation at all where those classes are not absolutely the best. That is why they're, you know, the best. Taking it even further, there's no point whatsoever(Well, until 9s, when everything is rendered irrelevent by Shapechange) where any other class beyond the artificer can approach a wizard in power level.

If T1 is the Z Fighters, Wizard is Goku, who cannot lose unless the plot says so, the Artificer is Vegeta, a headache and annoying, the archivist is Gohan, who is Goku-lite when not on plot device-roids, the Cleric is Piccolo, who kicks ass, but can't keep up with the cool kids, and the Druid is Kuririn, who is still deifically powerful, but is still pathetic by comparison, and is only still around because the other guys are too nice to tell him that he sucks. Unfortunatly, for this metaphor, the PsiArt would wind up being an unholy lovechild of the Shadow Dragons, Baby, Perfect Cell, and SSJ4 Gogeta. Regardless, Goku is always stronger than Piccolo. It doesn't matter how badly jobbered the match is, Goku wins.

And I think I officially win the nerd of the year award.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
exact circumstances obviously make a difference.

No. There is no situation at all where those classes are not absolutely the best..

Absolute statements are almost always wrong under the right circumstances.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Except it's impossible to actually get into one of those planes. Also, strictly speaking, a tinfoil hat could block it. So, no, it's correct. There is no situation where those classes are not the absolute best.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Except it's impossible to actually get into one of those planes. Also, strictly speaking, a tinfoil hat could block it. So, no, it's correct. There is no situation where those classes are not the absolute best.

Strictly speaking, permanent planar portals work just fine, exactly as the entry states, and a tinfoil hat does nothing to block a trait that suffuses an entire plane.

Dead magic planes are not a very common type of plane, just one of those circumstances where the given classes lack all their usual magical advantages.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Except it's impossible to actually get into one of those planes. Also, strictly speaking, a tinfoil hat could block it. So, no, it's correct. There is no situation where those classes are not the absolute best.



How is it imposable to get to any of those planes? If I'm not mistaken a layer of the abyss is a dead magic zone, and since every layer of the abyss is connected to the relative upper and lower sequential layers it's just a matter of plane shifting/gate to such a layer and physical walking to the planar junction. Secondly how would a tinfoil hat protect you from a planar trait? the entire concept of the tinfoil hat is that it expands to block the emanation of an antimagic field so you can teloport away or whatever your follow up tactic is. When the entire plane of existence emulates the effect of an antimagic feild that includes the very ground you stand on, or just simply any possible location within the plane.

EDIT: Ninja'd by slagger.
Except it's impossible to actually get into one of those planes. Also, strictly speaking, a tinfoil hat could block it. So, no, it's correct. There is no situation where those classes are not the absolute best.

Strictly speaking, permanent planar portals work just fine, exactly as the entry states, and a tinfoil hat does nothing to block a trait that suffuses an entire plane.

Dead magic planes are not a very common type of plane, just one of those circumstances where the given classes lack all their usual magical advantages.

Incorrect on both counts. First, the trait "functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell." Tinfoil hat the problem away. Or IHS, really, but there are few things Iron Hear BY KROM!!! cannot solve.

Onto the portals, a spellcaster cannot "use teleport or another spell to move in or out." So, unless these portals are appearing naturally, a spellcaster can't use them. The only way I'm seeing to get in is Wish, and that's due to Wish's very specific wording.

EDIT: Lash, it doesn't matter. The hole is small enough that as long as it isn't coming from you, the line of effect is blocked. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
First, the trait "functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell." Tinfoil hat the problem away. Or IHS, really, but there are few things Iron Hear BY KROM!!! cannot solve.

If the effect wasn't continuous and emanating from everywhere, either of those solutions would work.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">So, unless these portals are appearing naturally, a spellcaster can't use them.

So the portals are natural portals.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Considering a different context, I interpreted Slagger's remarks to imply that differences in tiers are more exaggerated at higher levels, and less exaggerated at lower levels. A level 1 party, for instance, will have a wizard being quite powerful for the first couple of encounters per day, but quite useless afterwards, and quite fragile throughout them all - which is a far cry different from the Inception-style Contingencies, intraplanar fortresses, bound servants, and mass divinations that become routine at higher levels. Ditto for an artificer, actually - before they get enough money to make use of their serious infusions or item creation feats, they're basically just a rogue with a few extra scrolls but without acrobatic or social skills. Of course, by the time they're building ubermecha, gatling-gun wands, and anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-too custom magic items, that distinction is far easier to make out.

I think we can all agree that these contexts are more common than null magic planes.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Since the planar trait "functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell.", a single instance obviously can't cover an entire plane since its area is too small, nor can it come from any specific location since it would then be excluded from certain areas when it's a fundamental property of the plane.  Consequently, the only way to have an antimagic field that functions like the spell and works as a trait of an entire plane is if there is a field emanating from every possible point on the plane (which is functionally an infinite number of fields).

And there's no way of blocking or ending every single one of those with a tinfoil hat and a single maneuver.
I think we can all agree that these contexts are more common than null magic planes.

Oh, of course; as I said, they're by no means common.  They're just a specific circumstance in which the magic-dependent classes will be outperformed by classes favouring nonmagical features.

Any class is going to suffer in a circumstance where they can't apply the class features that are the source of their strength, whether they're Tier 0 or 1, or right down at Tier 6.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Nothing specific, it was just me pulling out buzzwords related to high-power artificer options. In this case, it'd probably be a variant Hordificer approach with souped-up constructs (the most obscene of which is, of course, a templated effigy a la Mr Roboto, but that's far from exclusive), or someone with robotic "power armor" styled spell items. At a more fundamental level it was more or less meant to reflect either breaking the CR system with created minions, or kitting yourself out in enough magic items in every slot to basically become Iron Man. These are things that an artificer simply cannot do at level 1 when he's basically a cerebral rogue, similar to a wizard having limited reserve ammunition at level 1 (a common scenario where the tier distinctions are not as drastic as they are later on).

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

[RT] Captain Charisma: All she wants to do is dance (Hybrid (melee/support), SAD, Theme (criticals), Theme (flex-style)

[TS] Assassin's Bleed: A blade in the crowd (Melee (technical), iaijutsu, SAD, theme (Assassin's Creed), tutorial)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

The planar trait can't function like a single antimagic field, nor can it emanate from an particular point in space, so it has to function like multiple fields from every point in space.

You could end any one of those antimagic field effects produced by the planar trait with each use of IHS, but the nature of a planar trait requires multiple effects since it functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell.

The dead magic trait isn't an antimagic field; if anything, it's the plane itself that's described as functioning in all respects like an antimagic field and I don't think anyone actually wants to trying ending the location for their own existence.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
#1: Top tier classes are that way because they are superior in almost every way. Superiority in this case defined by the breadth of problems they can solve.
#2: One cannot block a Dead Magic trait. It is a permanent, natural effect with no origin or duration.
#3: Iron Hear Surge cannot end a Dead Magic trait because it a) lacks a duration and b) is a state of existence not a "spell, effect, or condition".
#4: As to it not coming up ever, have fun on your quest to find the Mace of St. Cuthbert. I seem to remember that the quest to find it takes one to a certain tower on a certain Dead Magic plane.
Alot would do with playe style. I've seen too many debates over Wizard or Sorceror, with power vs utility, flexibility vs specialization. But it really comes down to the person running the character and what their play style is.

No, it doesn't. A sorcerer is entirely, completely, strictly objectively inferior to a wizard on any task. Play style is totally irrelevent.



I disagree.  by which I mean you are wrong. There is a strong fallacy in your arguement in that your "objectivity" scale you are using persumes that the class is played properly and objectively being played better. A Theoretic yield is not always reached.

Played better is objectively different then being better, a wizard that is played incorrectly will fail against a Sorceror who is objectively played correctly. While I know that a Wizard is the superior class overall, I also know that for some people, due to playstyle, they won't play a Wizard correctly, but they will play the Sorceror right, and i will (and have) recomended they play the sorceror.

And it not a matter of brains or skill either, some people just don't match a class and will do it wrong, simple as that. i would rather the players at my table play the classes that suit them best then them bringing the "best" class to the table and play them wrong.
Original quest involving it involves sneaking into the Tower of London. Gygax had a bit of crossover with "normal earth".

Nope. Wrong again. A sorcerer is always inferior to a wizard, becayse the wizard is, in every possible case, always superior to the sorcerer.

A Wizard and Sorcerer wake up naked in a cell without any possessions, no spells prepared, no contingencies. Sorcerer is superior as only 8 hours of sleep gets them back into fighting shape while the wizard is and remains just a commoner with no spells, spellbook, or ability to gain either. Absolute statements will kill you almost every time.
It functions like an AMF. Therefore, LoE can be blocked.

Then where is the point of origin? You can't block it if you ARE the origin point.

"The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally." ~DMG pg. 168
If your activities can be described as magic and can't be described as a permanent planar portal, then you're violating RAW.
I'm giving you the only conclusion that matches the described rules.  The planar trait can't function like a single antimagic field, nor can it emanate from an particular point in space, so it has to function like multiple fields from every point in space.

Incorrect, yet again. I'd love to see a citation for this claim, but, as we both know, you can't. Because you made this up.

The only thing I've "made up" is a logical conclusion based on the available evidence (the description of the trait and spell in question).  I'd love to see your actual reason for disagreeing with the logic I've presented, if you have such a reason.

As it is, you've tried to claim the ability to block the effect of a plane with a particular trait with a tinfoil hat despite a complete lack of awareness regarding any emanation point, and attempted a solution that involves erasing yourself from existence, which is foolhardy.
You could end any one of those antimagic field effects produced by the planar trait with each use of IHS, but the nature of a planar trait requires multiple effects since it functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell.

Incorrect. It is one effect. One IHS ends it.

One effect functioning in all respects like an antimagic field spell can't cover an entire plane (unless it's a very small plane), so your logic is flawed.
The dead magic trait isn't an antimagic field; if anything, it's the plane itself that's described as functioning in all respects like an antimagic field and I don't think anyone actually wants to trying ending the location for their own existence.

Irrelevent. LoE can stlll be blocked. Also, ending the plane wouldn't be too bad. A pure, empty void? That's not a problem, you'd have plenty of time to get out of it, and, if you didn't hold your breath, there'd be almost no risk whatsoever.

The line of effect comes from the plane itself, which is everywhere, including every inch of space occupied by any character, making it essentially impossible to block.

And the absence of a plane isn't a "pure, empty void", it's a complete absence of an area to exist; it lacks size, shape, or any other planar traits necessary for existence including time.  If you were able to end a plane while inside it, you wouldn't even die, you'd simply be gone from reality.
A sorcerer is always inferior to a wizard, becayse the wizard is, in every possible case, always superior to the sorcerer.

Possible case: The wizard has ceased to exist due to an unwise use of Iron Heart Surge.  The sorcerer is alive and well due to not destroying his own, identical plane of current existence.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Nope. Wrong again. A sorcerer is always inferior to a wizard, becayse the wizard is, in every possible case, always superior to the sorcerer.

A Wizard and Sorcerer wake up naked in a cell without any possessions, no spells prepared, no contingencies. Sorcerer is superior as only 8 hours of sleep gets them back into fighting shape while the wizard is and remains just a commoner with no spells, spellbook, or ability to gain either. Absolute statements will kill you almost every time.

Wrong. The still has a truly startling number of spells. Uncanny Forethought and Spontaneous Divination are cool like that.
It functions like an AMF. Therefore, LoE can be blocked.

Then where is the point of origin? You can't block it if you ARE the origin point.

It's a good thing the planar trait doesn't say you become the point of origin of an AMF.
"The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally." ~DMG pg. 168
If your activities can be described as magic and can't be described as a permanent planar portal, then you're violating RAW.

Nope. You're really grasping at straws, now.
The only thing I've "made up" is a logical conclusion based on the available evidence (the description of the trait and spell in question).  I'd love to see your actual reason for disagreeing with the logic I've presented, if you have such a reason.

It's not supported by RAW. Regardless of how "logical" it is, which, of course, it isn't, it doesn't matter. RAW doesn't say so.
[quotoe]As it is, you've tried to claim the ability to block the effect of a plane with a particular trait with a tinfoil hat despite a complete lack of awareness regarding any emanation point, and attempted a solution that involves erasing yourself from existence, which is foolhardy.
Nope. I doesn't matter. See, LoE works like that. Funny, eh?

And IHS would remove the trait from the plane, not destroy the plane. And, even if it were to destroy the plane, which it wouldn't, an empty vaccuum isn't that dangerous.
One effect functioning in all respects like an antimagic field spell can't cover an entire plane (unless it's a very small plane), so your logic is flawed.

Why are you having so much trouble with this "RAW" concept? It's pretty simple.
The line of effect comes from the plane itself, which is everywhere, including every inch of space occupied by any character, making it essentially impossible to block.

Incorrect. The point of origin isn't inside the hat, so it doesn't matter.
And the absence of a plane isn't a "pure, empty void", it's a complete absence of an area to exist; it lacks size, shape, or any other planar traits necessary for existence including time.  If you were able to end a plane while inside it, you wouldn't even die, you'd simply be gone from reality.

You know, I really cannot think of anything sufficiently sarcastic or patronizing to fully capture the sheer idiocy of this claim. Next are you going to tell me I'm going to be killed 'cuz dust mites are eating my skin?
Possible case: The wizard has ceased to exist due to an unwise use of Iron Heart Surge.  The sorcerer is alive and well due to not destroying his own, identical plane of current existence.

Nope. As I said, firstly IHS won't end the plane, just the effect, which you'd know if you actually did such a crazy thing as reading. Second, even if it did, which it didn't, it doesn't matter, because, regardless of the state of the plane, the wizard is still alive and will get out of there.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
It's not supported by RAW. Regardless of how "logical" it is, which, of course, it isn't, it doesn't matter. RAW doesn't say so.

RAW also doesn't state that a planar trait is a spell, effect, or other condition, so by that argument IHS does nothing.
Why are you having so much trouble with this "RAW" concept? It's pretty simple.

It leaves IHS pretty useless in this case, which does make it pretty simple.
The point of origin isn't inside the hat, so it doesn't matter.

Since the plane exists inside the hat, so does the point of origin, since planar traits originate from the entire plane not from a specific location on the plane.
And the absence of a plane isn't a "pure, empty void", it's a complete absence of an area to exist; it lacks size, shape, or any other planar traits necessary for existence including time.  If you were able to end a plane while inside it, you wouldn't even die, you'd simply be gone from reality.

You know, I really cannot think of anything sufficiently sarcastic or patronizing to fully capture the sheer idiocy of this claim. Next are you going to tell me I'm going to be killed 'cuz dust mites are eating my skin?

Hey, unless you've got some RAW stating that you've got planar traits like time and space in the absence of a plane, they don't.  Don't you understand this RAW concept?  It's pretty simple.
Possible case: The wizard has ceased to exist due to an unwise use of Iron Heart Surge.  The sorcerer is alive and well due to not destroying his own, identical plane of current existence.

Nope. As I said, firstly IHS won't end the plane, just the effect, which you'd know if you actually did such a crazy thing as reading. Second, even if it did, which it didn't, it doesn't matter, because, regardless of the state of the plane, the wizard is still alive and will get out of there.

The trait does nothing except for saying that the plane functions as the effect, pure RAW:

"A plane with the dead magic trait functions in all respects like an antimagic field spell. "

It's a plane (with the specified trait) that functions as an antimagic field, not the trait itself.  If you were able to end the "effect" (which isn't an effect, according to the RAW, since that's not stated anywhere), it's the plane, since that's what the sentence says in the RAW.

And the wizard is indeed out of the plane and possibly alive (if it were possible to use IHS in this way), but he's useless because it doesn't matter whether or not you're in a plane or alive when you're not in a place with any kind of space or time.  He's a living, effectively nonexistent wizard who will never do anything again.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
EA is right, I'm wrong, and I just don't have the sack to admit it.

Yes, we all know. Now, this is getting boring. Come back when you can make a real, reasonable, RAW-backed claim. But, given your past record, I doubt that'll happen. 
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Come back when you can make a real, reasonable, RAW-backed claim. But, given your past record, I doubt that'll happen. 

"Reasonable" probably isn't going to have anything to do with a claim that you can end planar traits through traing and dedication, or that you can create magical energy from nothing by wearing tinfoil on your head.

As for RAW, have you got even a single shred of RAW evidence stating that Iron Heart Surge affects planar traits, or that planar traits originate from outside your tinfoil hat?

A reasonable argument doesn't involve trying to put words in someone else's mouth in an attempt to convince yourself that you're right; if you want to prove your position, you'll need real arguments backed by real evidence of your own.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Come back when you can make a real, reasonable, RAW-backed claim. But, given your past record, I doubt that'll happen. 

"Reasonable" probably isn't going to have anything to do with a claim that you can end planar traits through traing and dedication, or that you can create magical energy from nothing by wearing tinfoil on your head.

Them's the rules. Not my problem you have a problem with that.
As for RAW, have you got even a single shred of RAW evidence stating that Iron Heart Surge affects planar traits, or that planar traits originate from outside your tinfoil hat?

Yes. I've already provided them. It's not controversial that IHS can put out the sun. What's your problem with basic and very simple RAW?
A reasonable argument doesn't involve trying to put words in someone else's mouth in an attempt to convince yourself that you're right; if you want to prove your position, you'll need real arguments backed by real evidence of your own.

As I said, already done. Not my fault you seem incapable of understanding the basics.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I appreciate it a lot...but i need to make a bodyguard for my character...an tank or bulk. Like the Threat class.
There's no such thing as a tank in D&D.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
I appreciate it a lot...but i need to make a bodyguard for my character...an tank or bulk. Like the Threat class.

What's the build of the character you want to protect?
Come back when you can make a real, reasonable, RAW-backed claim. But, given your past record, I doubt that'll happen. 

"Reasonable" probably isn't going to have anything to do with a claim that you can end planar traits through traing and dedication, or that you can create magical energy from nothing by wearing tinfoil on your head.

Them's the rules.

Your own personal rules, maybe, but not the RAW.
As for RAW, have you got even a single shred of RAW evidence stating that Iron Heart Surge affects planar traits, or that planar traits originate from outside your tinfoil hat?

Yes. I've already provided them. It's not controversial that IHS can put out the sun. What's your problem with basic and very simple RAW?

The RAW don't call the sun an effect, spell, or condition, nor do they do the same for planes or planar traits.  IHS simply does nothing to them.  Your "evidence" is based on no RAW whatsoever, which is why you can't produce it.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Your own personal rules, maybe, but not the RAW.

...No. Just the actual rules.
The RAW don't call the sun an effect, spell, or condition, nor do they do the same for planes or planar traits.  IHS simply does nothing to them.  Your "evidence" is based on no RAW whatsoever, which is why you can't produce it.



EA, there is a very simple reason as to why you are wrong, and it is spelled out in the rules quite clearly. TO begin, lets start with Iron Heart Surge:

Iron Heart Surge

Iron Heart
Level: Warblade 3
Prerequisite: One Iron Heart maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: See text
By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.
Your fighting spirit, dedication, and training allow you to overcome almost anything to defeat your enemies.
When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. You also surge with confidence and vengeance against your enemies, gaining a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls until the end of your next turn.

As the maneuver lists, you select one spell, effect, or other condition, pretty simple. Now, lets take a look at what the rules compendium says about each of these things.

Clearly, a Planar Trait is not a spell, that is an inarguable fact that can be confirmed by the SRD and rule compedium, as nowhere does it say "planar traits are spells" in either. You can check that out for yourself on the SRD at least here: www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm

Now on to "effect". The only rules stated for an effect in the rules compendium are in regards to spell effects says the following:

EFFECT

Some spells create or summon objects or creatures rather than affecting what is already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile it can move regardless of the spell’s range. You must have line of effect (page 80) to any space in which you wish to create an effect.

As there is no other listing I can find that defines what an "effect" officially is, RAW would determine that effect when used as a designation refers to a spell effect. We've already covered the fact that a planar trait is not a spell, so what it produces is not a spell effect. It may mimic a trait of a spell, but anything it mimics is not subject to dispel effects, counter spelling, ect.

That knocks two off the list. Finally, we have "condition". Condition is actually very strictly defined in the rules compendium, and very lengthy, so I'll put that bit in a spoiler.

Show
Conditions

This section lists adverse conditions a creature might be subjected to. Each condition is described either here or elsewhere in this book (as indicated by a page reference). If more than one condition affects a creature, apply them all. If certain effects can’t combine, apply the most severe one.

Ability Damaged: See page 6.

Ability Drained: See page 6.

Blinded: A blinded creature can’t see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment against the blinded creature. A blinded creature pinpoints targets and deals damage to them as if those targets were invisible. Blinded creatures are immune to gaze attacks and other attacks that require the target to be able to see in order to be affected.

Blown Away: Depending on its size, a creature can be blown away by winds of high velocity. Each round a creature on the ground is blown away; it is knocked down and rolls 1d4×10 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet. In each round when a flying creature is blown away, it is blown back 2d6×10 feet and takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage due to battering and buffeting.

Checked: A checked creature is prevented from achieving forward motion by an applied force, such as wind. Checked creatures that are on the ground merely stop. Checked creatures that are flying move back a distance specified in the description of the effect.

Confused: A confused creature’s activities are determined by rolling d% at the beginning of its turn: 01–10, attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attacking isn’t possible); 11–20, act normally; 21–50, do Nothing but babble incoherently; 51–70, flee away from caster at top possible speed; 71–100, attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject’s self). A confused creature that can’t carry out the indicated activity does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers gain no special advantage when attacking a confused creature. Any confused creature that is attacked always retaliates against its attackers on its next turn, as long as it’s still confused when its turn comes. A confused creature doesn’t make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it isn’t already devoted to attacking either because of its most recent attack or because it has just been attacked.

Cowering: A cowering creature is frozen in fear or awe, unable to take actions. It takes a –2 penalty to AC and loses its Dexterity bonus (in all applications).

Dazed: A dazed creature is unable to act normally. It can take no actions but has no penalty to AC. A dazed condition typically lasts for 1 round.

Dazzled: A dazzled creature is unable to see well because of over stimulation of the eyes. It takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks.

Dead: See page 73.

Deafened: A deafened creature can’t hear. It takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Listen checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells that have verbal components.

Dehydrated: Creatures that have taken nonlethal damage from lack of water are considered dehydrated and become fatigued. In addition, if a dehydrated creature would take nonlethal damage from hot conditions (see page 155), that damage instead becomes lethal damage.

Disabled: See page 72.

Dying: See page 73.

Energy Drained: See page 49. Entangled: An entangled creature is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but doesn’t entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, can’t run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. Casting a spell while entangled requires a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level).

Exhausted: An exhausted creature can neither run nor charge, and it takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. It can move at only half speed. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted creature becomes fatigued.

Fascinated: A fascinated creature is entranced by a magical effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as that effect lasts. A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at a fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. Another creature that uses a standard action to do so can free a fascinated creature from this condition.

Fatigued: A fatigued creature can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes a fatigued creature to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, a fatigued creature is no longer fatigued.

Flat-Footed: A creature that hasn’t yet taken an action during combat is flat-footed, not yet able to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC and can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Frightened: See page 53. Grappling: A grappling creature is engaged in some form of hand-to-hand struggle with one or more attackers. Its actions are limited—see page 60. It doesn’t threaten any squares, and it’s denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against opponents it isn’t grappling.

Helpless: A helpless creature is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. It is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier) and takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. A helpless creature is subject to attacks that rely on a target’s being denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless target.

Immobilized: An immobilized creature can’t move out of the space it was in when it became immobilized. It otherwise functions normally unless it’s flying. Immobilized flying creatures that have the ability to hover can maintain their initial altitude. All other f lying creatures subjected to this condition descend at a rate of 20 feet per round until they reach the ground, taking no falling damage.

Incorporeal: See page 64. Invisible: See page 76. Knocked Down: Depending on their size, creatures can be knocked down by winds of high velocity. Creatures on the ground are knocked prone by the force of the wind. Flying creatures are instead blown back 1d6×10 feet.

Nauseated: A nauseated creature is experiencing overwhelming physical discomfort. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a creature can take on its turn is a single move action. This condition affects only living creatures (any not of the construct, deathless, or undead types). Panicked: See page 53.

Paralyzed: A paralyzed creature is frozen in place and helpless. Such a creature has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0, but it can still undertake purely mental activities. A winged creature fl ying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed can’t fl ap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and might drown.

Petrified: A petrified creature has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified creature cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as it returns to flesh, the creature is unharmed. If the creature’s petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete. The DM must then decide whether the creature is subject to permanent hit point loss and/or some form of debilitation.

Pinned: A pinned creature is held stationary (but not helpless) for 1 round. It can’t take any actions the pinning creature doesn’t allow, even speaking. A pinned creature takes a –4 penalty to AC against opponents other than the pinning creature. It can’t move, so its Dexterity is considered to be 0 for the purpose of determining AC (–5 modifier). It is also subject to attacks, such as sneak attacks, that rely on a defender’s being denied its Dexterity bonus to AC.

Prone: A prone creature is lying fl at on the ground. Any creature, even a limbless one such as a snake, that can flatten itself on the ground can choose to be prone, even if it can’t reasonably be tripped or knocked down. An attacker that is prone takes a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and can’t use ranged weapons aside from crossbows and shuriken. A defender that is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Standing up is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Rebuked: A rebuked creature has been affected by a turning attempt to rebuke. Rebuked creatures cower in awe for 10 rounds.

Shaken: See page 53.

Sickened: A sickened creature is experiencing physical discomfort. The creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. This condition affects only living creatures (any not of the construct, deathless, or undead types).

Stable: See page 73.

Staggered: A staggered creature is one whose nonlethal damage exactly equals its current hit points. A staggered creature can take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can it take full-round actions). A creature whose nonlethal damage exceeds its current hit points becomes unconscious.

Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything it was holding, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. Turned: A turned creature has been affected by a turning attempt. A turned creature flees for 10 rounds (1 minute) by the best and fastest means available to it. If it can’t flee, it cowers.

Unconscious: An unconscious creature is knocked out and helpless.


To save you some reading "subjected to a planar trait" is not a listed condition.

On a final note regarding the tin hat, reading up on planar traits explicitly states that the magical traits of a plane simply define how magic works on said plane. No if's, and's, or but's about it, If a plane has the dead magic trait, magic simply does not work on it, period. This means a tinfoil hat would not only be useless, but possibly a death trap to a caster.
I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner. 
Thanks, Lash. Now I have this mental picture of some less-than-intelligent trying to use IHS to put out the sun... And putting himself into perpetual darkness.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Thanks, Lash. Now I have this mental picture of some less-than-intelligent trying to use IHS to put out the sun... And putting himself into perpetual darkness.



Tell me about it. >.<

My head hurt trying to even think of a DM saying yes to that. I mean I love a Chuck Norris joke now and then, but trying to say a Warblade can turn off the sun at level 5 is like saying "Chuck Norris can shut off a sun by simply shrugging."
You know why there are so many Chuck Norris jokes, but no Bruce Lee ones?
Answer
Because Bruce Lee is no joke.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I appreciate it a lot...but i need to make a bodyguard for my character...an tank or bulk. Like the Threat class.

If this is always what you wanted it would be MUCH better then simply asking "in your opinion, what is the best class."  As you should be able to see by looking at the responses that question is almost trolling for fights especially when some people can't accept the opinons of others.

What you should have asked is "I need help building a body guard for my character."  Then you should have told us some of the details about your character, so we know what we are guarding against, and maybe how the bodyguard is aquired.  If you take Leadership and use your cohort as a bodyguard things will be done differently then if you say that anther PC is claiming the role as your Bodyguard.
You know why there are so many Chuck Norris jokes, but no Bruce Lee ones?
Answer
Because Bruce Lee is no joke.


Plus, even if we did want to change all of the Chuck Norris jokes to Bruce Lee, it would take too long to move them all to the Non-Fiction section

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Best defense that I've read in favor of having alignment systems as an option
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

Nope. Wrong again. A sorcerer is always inferior to a wizard, becayse the wizard is, in every possible case, always superior to the sorcerer.


What about Gestalting with Paladin?

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Best defense that I've read in favor of having alignment systems as an option
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire

Thanks, Lash. Now I have this mental picture of some less-than-intelligent trying to use IHS to put out the sun... And putting himself into perpetual darkness.

Freezing would be more problematic, really. Either way, it would lead to a relatively quick and quite unpleasant death for the vast majority of life.
My head hurt trying to even think of a DM saying yes to that. I mean I love a Chuck Norris joke now and then, but trying to say a Warblade can turn off the sun at level 5 is like saying "Chuck Norris can shut off a sun by simply shrugging."

Seriously, what does that have to do with rules?

Of course, you do know the real reason behind Chuck Norris jokes?
Show
Teddy Roosevelt got tired of people reading from his biography


To be completely honest, though, Chuck Norris jokes never made any sense to me. I mean, his greatest accomplishment in life was having his face almost1 graced by Bruce Lee's fist.
What about Gestalting with Paladin?

Yep, wizards are better at that, too. Wizards are simply better. The minor increase in saves isn't going to make a difference.

Also, you really should put your sig in a spoiler. It's taking up more space than your posts.
1It wasn't a real punch, so it doesn't quite count. Amusingly enough, "almost" is an adjective that could also be applied to Chuck Norris's "face."
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Out of curiosity, why is Psionic Arty stronger than regular?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Out of curiosity, why is Psionic Arty stronger than regular?

Poorly written transparency rules, basically.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Um... Yeah, that's a really crappy answer, dood. I was really hoping for some depth, context, and or 'splaining. I guess I should have known better. Maybe Tempest or RT will happen along...
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Yeah, Tempest is really good at stuff like that.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think that there's an XKCD that showcases the difference between Tempest and EA pretty well

Odds are, if 4-6 people can't figure out an answer you thought was obvious, you screwed up, not them. - JeffGroves
Which is why a DM should present problems to solve, not solutions to find. -FlatFoot
Best defense that I've read in favor of having alignment systems as an option
Show
If some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan (RIP)
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.

 

I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?"

 

than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" -YagamiFire